Future of Windows 10 on arm

[clintroymkt]

I often see the true long term benefit of windows 10 on arm being that in say a few years , we can have windows versions of really cheap android phones, maybe not 50 dollars but perhaps something akin to a core i3 machine for around less than 200 dollars. it would be a huge help for people in countries like mine (Zimbabwe) and could help microsoft be part of that push for the next billion internet users.

 

[Golfdriver97]

The blog did a write up about this earlier this year: https://www.windowscentral.com/who-are-windows-10-arm-powered-devices

This may not be a very good move for MS, but sometimes, you don't know until you try.

 

[ashram]

As much as I'd love to see Windows on a phone, again, it seems like the rest of the internet would just push it back into oblivion.

 

[TheRealBatman]

I just picked up the elite and all I can say is amazing. Yes the cam isn't quite as good, double tap i haven't quite figured out yet and glance is missing. And on the home screen black isn't quite black. But everything else is amazing. If there is not an arm windows with telephony in late 2019 I will be very sad to leave windows. On mobile. Ps using webtoapp to convert pwa sites and html 5 sites to apps. Good examples of full power web as an app is facebook and boa. If your still here with me on wm give it a try.

 

[TheRealBatman]

And if you know where I can get the rugged case for a reasonable price please let me know @krispetrin. Hit me up on twitter.

 

[mwright53]

Very, very unlikely

 

[kingtigre]

I would argue that the point of Windows on ARM is to ultimately make phones obsolete. A lofty goal considering how much mindshare mobile phones have on society as a whole today.

If they think they have a snowball's chance in hell, they will have to work hard and push hard. Changing the way people think about what a "phone" is isn't going to be an easy task. They don't have a long history of that kind of commitment.

The stand out being Tablet computing. They've been shoving Windows on slates with stylus' for a VERY long time. Well before Surface. That commitment finally paid off for them big with the SP3 and beyond.

 

[AMRooke]

I often see the true long term benefit of windows 10 on arm being that in say a few years , we can have windows versions of really cheap android phones, maybe not 50 dollars but perhaps something akin to a core i3 machine for around less than 200 dollars. it would be a huge help for people in countries like mine (Zimbabwe) and could help microsoft be part of that push for the next billion internet users.

While I think a low-end model could have a market, the advanced capabilities of Win10 on ARM (assuming that it will ultimately include win32 support) will be better suited on high-end hardware. That is what I and my employees are eagerly waiting for. Then we will be able to do the vast majority of our business with our phones, instead of needing to bring along our laptops when traveling. Continuum has been a nice teaser (improved our productivity a bit), but full win32 support is the holy grail!!!

 

[Vivio vrvly]

They could as well release a phone device, like 950xl with new windows. Most important is OS as hw in last one was good enough. What however they still miss are apps.
Pocketable is surely near future for windows, because lagless computing over internet is where you can get more power, if you need. Or to put device in external charging and cooling device to get more offline power, similar thing may be done for mobile gamers as they need more battery and better cooling.
For not near future, but also not so far future, AR devices are the future, may not be pocketable for now, but Microsoft surely can see what HoloLens change in personal computing, so are simple iglasses/other wearables, bringing practical functions to life.
And if its about far future, there is only answer - "personal" and "public" AI, with personal meaning offline and original one, and public being like cortana, bixby, siri now. Interaction will not be done with mouse, keyboard and "programming", but by communication with AI, maybe some art with hw but the rest with AI, with second public AI without even need to own any hw, so future is no personal HW, thats what Mucrosoft should aim for.

 

[ochhanz]

I just picked up the elite and all I can say is amazing. Yes the cam isn't quite as good, double tap i haven't quite figured out yet and glance is missing. And on the home screen black isn't quite black. But everything else is amazing. If there is not an arm windows with telephony in late 2019 I will be very sad to leave windows. On mobile. Ps using webtoapp to convert pwa sites and html 5 sites to apps. Good examples of full power web as an app is facebook and boa. If your still here with me on wm give it a try.

, do you know if it is possible to remove cookies etc in webtoapp? I works pretty good but would like to be able clear cookies/history like in Edge.

 

[Martin Plamondon]

What's the point of Windows on ARM if there is no mobile presence? If I'm to have a full size tablet or laptop it's better be running legacy apps at full speed. ARM x86 emulation might do the trick but I doubt it.

Windows on ARM is for mobile, period... If Microsoft doesn't get this it will fail. Please let Andromeda device come to life...

 

[Cruncher04]

What's the point of Windows on ARM if there is no mobile presence? If I'm to have a full size tablet or laptop it's better be running legacy apps at full speed. ARM x86 emulation might do the trick but I doubt it.

Windows on ARM is for mobile, period... If Microsoft doesn't get this it will fail. Please let Andromeda device come to life...

The point of ARM devices is the highest performance given a power budget at and below 5W - while having performance similar to many 15W x86 devices. This includes not only phones but fan-less tablets as well.
And this is only the status quo - Cortex A76, appearing in devices next year, is 40% faster at the same 5W power budget for an 8 core big.LITTLE system. In addition you might see 10W TDP ARM devices starting next year with higher clocks - again beating everything x86 in performance in a TDP range significantly above.

The point i am trying to make is, that when looking at ARM and concluding it is for mobile is far too short sighted.

Of course this is the view on the big scale of thing, not only looking into the Windows ecosystem. Within the Windows eco-system there might be an adoption issue because it looks like many people are not ready to temporarily live with emulation - as your comment perfectly shows. And as long as there are adoption issues, the volume of ARM64 Win32 application will not increase at higher speed - so currently Windows, which is an unfortunate thing for its users, has the biggest issue adopting to ARM compared the world outside (e.g. Android, ChromeOS, iOS, Mac, Linux)

 

[peterw1000]

Personally I've used iOS, Windows mobile and Android in that order and for me it's not about Windows it's about the UI. I find the Windows UI the most pleasing, the OS is not that important as the Apps and the UI. Currently I have a Nokia 7 Plus running Android One with Launcher 10 V2.2.2 which just looks like my Nokia 1520 running Win10 mobile and the HP Elite in the articles photo. If I gave my phone to most people they would not have a clue what OS it was running, but as long as they could Facebook, Skype, SnapChat and email they would be happy. I have all of Microsoft's application loaded, Outlook, Onenote, Onedrive, Word and Excel plus Skype and Skype for business, oh and Teams. To be honest I have to keep reminding myself that it is not running Windows. So after all this integration with Microsoft Apps why would Microsoft need to bother with a phone at all unless it's part of a bigger mobile platform which would then be just be their OS on a ARM, Intel or AMD chip eventually.
I guess what I'm saying is it's about the user experience for the most of the Public not what OS is running the thing...….

 

[Hirox K]

WoA is a go since it also benefits IOT, AR and MR.
ARM and smaller size is always a good match and it takes no effort to do it.
Prior to now we have desktop, 8 ~ 17 inch (maybe?) NBs in the market. Doesn't hurt to have a additional 5~6 inch.
It's still the very same Windows (WoA) PC, just smaller.

Strip down Windows to a "core" benefits MS in general, esp their future. New type of HWs might happen 10 years from now.


It's easer for programmers to go "cross-platform". We talk to Windows (using higher level language) and Windows talk to various type of devices and machines (also server) for us.

 

[PFSP]

I hope so. To me this should be one of end goals for windows on ARM. Andromeda may be nice but I really don't want a two screened device. but a computer with the form factor of a large phone (5.5 screen or bigger) and telephony support that has a dock for me to connect to a keyboard, mouse and multiple monitors when at my desk is the perfect device. out and about using it as a handheld device in tablet mode that fits in my pocket is enough. when I get to my desk plug it in and have at it.

 

[Brett Watters]

If Andromeda is even moderately successful, then it would be a phone. I can't see anyone using it in addition to their phone. At a minimum it would need to be good enough as a phone to make and receive calls, text messages, maps/GPS, etc. in a UI suitable for general phone use and with enough apps to be "good enough". It then gets the market who might want a small tablet, but don't like carrying a phone and a 7" device with them.

If it does create a new category and spawn other companies to make such devices, it would be obvious that the category would spawn variants in both directions -- say a 7" folding device to better cover the tablet market and presumably thinner smaller devices to better cover the phone market, or maybe a phone-like single screen with an additional screen which can attach to it.

 

[a5cent]

If Andromeda is even moderately successful, then it would be a phone. I can't see anyone using it in addition to their phone. At a minimum it would need to be good enough as a phone to make and receive calls, text messages, maps/GPS, etc. in a UI suitable for general phone use and with enough apps to be "good enough".

We already know MS foldable device will do all those things, except possibly the last. Having enough apps to be "good enough" is a highly subjective metric. What we do know is that it will have fewer apps than W10M did when it launched. Is that enough? I don't know.

Either way, that fact is precisely why MS will NOT market that device as a smartphone replacement.. because it will provide access to only very few of the apps people normally expect a smartphone to run. It will run whatever you can run on a PC (how well remains to be seen), which is why it will be marketed as a miniature PC with telephony capabilities.

If you need access to all your smartphone mobile apps, you'll need to pack your iOS or Android device as well.

 

[anon(50597)]

We already know MS foldable device will do all those things, except possibly the last. Having enough apps to be "good enough" is a highly subjective metric. What we do know is that it will have fewer apps than W10M did when it launched. Is that enough? I don't know.

Either way, that fact is precisely why MS will NOT market that device as a smartphone replacement.. because it will provide access to only very few of the apps people normally expect a smartphone to run. It will run whatever you can run on a PC (how well remains to be seen), which is why it will be marketed as a miniature PC with telephony capabilities.

If you need access to all your smartphone mobile apps, you'll need to pack your iOS or Android device as well.

I agree. It’s not a smartphone replacement. It’s for people who need computer like abilities in their pocket. It will be a niche product, at least at the beginning.

 

[Brett Watters]

What we do know is that it will have fewer apps than W10M did when it launched.

How do you know this? We don't have details, but it is certainly likely Andromeda would be able to run generic 'desktop' UWPs without modification. Windows on ARM certainly can. Size shouldn't be an issue since UWP certainly run on 7" devices at low resolutions. Only about 15% or so of UWPs were/are compiled for Windows Mobile, so any launch able to run current UWPs would mean it runs probably 10x as many apps as W10M launched with.

Either way, that fact is precisely why MS will NOT market that device as a smartphone replacement.. because it will provide access to only very few of the apps people normally expect a smartphone to run. …

If it runs all the current UWPs on the store... isn't that "good enough" to start with? Isn't that 20x or so more than W10M has? Heck, just being able to run PWAs in Edge would open up many key apps plus the thousands of UWPs on the store not compiled for mobile. I can see a lot of people skipping their phone at that point.

Again, do you have any reason to think that Andromeda can't run standard UWPs?

 

[a5cent]

How do you know this?

To be clear, you mentioned:

• make and receive calls
• text messages
• maps/GPS
• etc
• a UI suitable for general phone use
• enough apps to be "good enough"

Whether the device will sport a UI that is suitable for general phone use is difficult to discuss because that's highly subjective. IMHO W10M had a UI that meets that requirement. When the device is folded, Andromeda's UI will be very similar to W10M's, which is why I'd say that bar is cleared.

Everything else, with the exception of "etc" ;-), has been commented on multiple times by WCentral and other sites. If there is something specific you want information on I'm sure I can dig something up, but you can probably find that yourself if you do some searching.

Your points are all high-level "asks". There is nothing detailed about them, which is why we don't need any in-depth details to answer them. That's also why we already know.

If it runs all the current UWPs on the store... isn't that "good enough" to start with? Isn't that 20x or so more than W10M has? Heck, just being able to run PWAs in Edge would open up many key apps plus the thousands of UWPs on the store not compiled for mobile. I can see a lot of people skipping their phone at that point.

Again, do you have any reason to think that Andromeda can't run standard UWPs?

First, you owe us a definition for "good enough". I'm going to assume you define "good enough" as:

"the ability to at least somewhat compete with the mobile app selection on iOS and Android".

Second, I don't know what your current understanding of UWP is, so I'm not sure if I can give you a succinct answer. Historically, WCentral has done a dismal job of explaining UWP (although they are getting better), so most people here have a dysfunctional understanding of what an UWP app actually is.

The short answer:

Yes, Andromeda will be able to run all apps in the Microsoft Store, that includes UWP apps, PWAs and Win32 apps that are distributed through the Store using the Win32 bridge, a.k.a. Centennial. It will also run all the Win32 software available outside the store. Unfortunately, using the definition stated above, that isn't even close to "good enough".

When the average smartphone user thinks "mobile apps", they are thinking of their favorite social media apps, their local grocery store, local event and local travel apps, payment apps and the mobile gaming fad of the hour. The Microsoft Store, even with PWAs, offers very few of those. Often none at all. The lack of those apps is precisely what constitutes the app gap. Nothing about that has changed. While a specific individual may get along fine with that selection, for the average smartphone user, no device can replace their smartphone if it can't provide similar functionality for those use cases.

Furthermore, whether the software library at your disposal is 20x larger than it was back in 2015 depends on how you count:

If you're counting all the Win32 software that an Andromeda device could potentially run (as mentioned above), then the offering is easily a hundred times larger. IMHO that's just irrelevant in terms of the devices ability to act as a smartphone replacement, because 99.9% of those apps can't run on small screens.

If you're counting only PWAs and UWP apps that have been explicitly designed to adapt to small screens, i.e. they have a touch optimized UI that can be displayed when the device is folded, then the Store contains far fewer apps then it did back in 2015.

Given this reality, I have no idea how you'd expect such a device to compete with the mobile app selection on iOS or Android.

On the other hand, if your looking at the app selection when used as a PC (unfolded), then you could say iOS and Android have a major productivity software gap. For people who are primarily looking for a smartphone that simply isn't relevant.