Hope Windows 10 will have unrestricted multitasking?

[MohamedWaheed]

the flashlight problem, which is easily solved with a background agent that can control the light.

Already on W10 mobile I can do that. Just open the flash light app then press start button and open any other app you will notice that the flash is still switched on.

 

[a5cent]

Yea, I'm not talking about handing out licence for an app to do anything. I should have been more specific and detailed (there was gin involved...).

lol, in that case, cheers!

I am really thinking of well defined exceptions for a specific purpose. So giving access to short multi-tasking CPU time slices for some things (such as is already done for tile updates on the phone). I think it would be handy, though, for the user to be able to choose the exceptions front and centre on first run of an app, rather than digging for the current background app settings that happen with no gatekeeper style explicit user permissions before they take a background slot.
I like this in W8.1 for PC but that can get restrictive and some apps end up needing a lock screen slot that shouldn't be necessary. I'm trying to say we need a bit more flexibility from MS but it has to come with tight explicit control by the user.

If we can come up with a specific use case where that solution seems to be the best match, then I'd say that sounds fine. I'm just not sure such a use case exists, where that approach would be decidedly better than what WP already does.

In a way, I think MS's current solution is a variation on exactly what you've just suggested. WP's feature-based multitasking is exactly that: well defined exceptions for specific purposes:

• Background Audio (developer documentation)
• Background Location
• Background File Transfer (developer documentation)
• etc

Note that all of the above are completely independent of background tasks. None of the above are represented anywhere in WP's UI, whereas the background tasks you mentioned are presented to users via the battery saver app. However, background tasks are really (more or less) just about live tile updates, rather than a facility to enable multitasking.

Now that you've mentioned background tasks, I wonder if they are contributing to the general confusion in this thread?

I'd barely consider background tasks a multitasking related topic. While background tasks are about running things in the background, they aren't about running things simultaneously, which is all multitasking is about. In fact, if you happen to be doing something demanding with your phone, background tasks aren't likely to run at all. Ironically, background tasks could be said to exist specifically so they never run simultaneously with anything else, so as to not bog down the phone at the wrong moment. The concept exists primarily so that live tile updates occur only when the phone has nothing more important to do. That's practically the opposite of multitasking.

 

[pankaj981]

Already on W10 mobile I can do that. Just open the flash light app then press start button and open any other app you will notice that the flash is still switched on.

That's still using background agent, not multitasking the Android way, but still multitasking.

 

[a5cent]

That's still using background agent, not multitasking the Android way, but still multitasking.

Any proof?

AFAIK background agents can do that. The main difference in WP8.1 is that background agents can now be triggered by other events than just time, meaning they could trigger when an SMS is received, rather than just once every 30 minutes. They are still limited to running for only a few seconds and very sporadically however.

Already on W10 mobile I can do that. Just open the flash light app then press start button and open any other app you will notice that the flash is still switched on.

Thanks for the heads up! I haven't really looked at W10M yet, so I wasn't aware.

On the other hand, I'm not yet convinced this is really the solution I was talking about. What if an app wanted to use the flashlight to blink S.O.S while the app is in the background? Maybe you're right, but I'd be surprised if that worked without requiring changes to the APIs, which WP8.1 apps can't take advantage of.

 

[pankaj981]

Any proof?

AFAIK background agents can do that. The main difference in WP8.1 is that background agents can now be triggered by other events than just time, meaning they could trigger when an SMS is received, rather than just once every 30 minutes. They are still limited to running for only a few seconds and very sporadically however.

I don't have any proof to support this (haven't read any docs on MSDN) but if you look at certain apps, example Windows Central it doesn't resume from hold as other apps on Android do.

 

[Spectrum90]

I'd like an option to activate full multitasking like in a PC. In settings, the user could choose the apps that are allowed to run in the background by default. The task manager should inform the resource consumption of each app and provide commands to manually suspend apps if they are using too much resources, and also to allow momentarily background execution for apps that aren't allowed by default.
This behavior transfer the responsibility of resource management to the user, so It shouldn't be activated by default. Although, It would be a great feature for power users.

 

[AndyCalling]

lol, in that case, cheers!

Ironically, background tasks could be said to exist specifically so they never run simultaneously with anything else, so as to not bog down the phone at the wrong moment. The concept exists primarily so that live tile updates occur only when the phone has nothing more important to do. That's practically the opposite of multitasking.

Though you are technically right, they are the opposite to 'true' multitasking, a discussion about 'true' multitasking is certainly going to mislead and brings back the Motorola vs Intel cpu discussions of yesteryear. I am using the term in the modern sense of 'getting stuff done in apps that I'm not tapping at right now' and unfortunately that will irritate the old guard immensely. They (we) can handle that better than making this an impenetrable discussion about processor cores, thread priorities, command queues and microcode instruction sets/cpu design philosophy.

Essentially, this has to be a high level discussion about results rather than technical methodology. About what we actually want to achieve. Yes, some real time priorities happen regularly with phones and 'true' multitasking does happen (hence multicore apu) but such low level considerations are not suitable for phone users to manipulate.

PCs are another matter however, and I'm not sure how MS intends to address this in the universal app world. Currently it's rather messy.

 

[hinst]

Restricted multitasking has its flaws, but gawd save us from Android multitasking.
Android phones have **** multitasking and here is why:
Your browser will be closed anyway. Even if you have tons of RAM, it will be closed if you switch, and soon.
Apps can start whenever they want and you can't do **** about it (other than uninstall them). This is the way developers think: our app is important, so we make it stay in RAM. Screw you. We know better. On Android all apps LOVE to stay in RAM. Calendar, Google services, Play Market, clock, contacts, games, weather. Yes, games. They remind you that you are supposed to play your games.

One day I installed Clash of Clans, that abomination of a game. Next day I go sleep. At 2:00 AM suddenly Clash of Clans posts notification with sound: "Play plz))".

On Android all apps are not restricted from running whenever they want. The only way to suppress them from running is installing some app like Greenify or App Quarantine Pro. To use such apps you need root access.

I use FireFox browser on Android. Guess what? It closes tabs if you switch from it to other app. Enough RAM or not. Part of the problem with Android is that you can't even tell if you are running out of RAM or not. It is hard to figure out because Android caches everything. Runs everything. Android has that wonderful IntentReceiver subsystem (I call it auto-restarts). So any app can start on any event. When phone boots, when phone regains network connection (can happen many times per day), when u turn on the screen, etc. It's hell.

Android Multitasking could work. But the problem is that Developers massively abuse AutoRestarts. It is terrible. To deal with them, you should either have very few apps installed or use hack-apps like Quarantine Pro. Otherwise a game you installed a month ago and played just once will happily start itself whenever it pleases to execute some "background task". Another problem is that even if you want the app to stay in memory, it won't! Unless developers kindly provided "stay in memory" setting for this particular app. I am looking at you, FireFox. If it does not want to stay in memory, it won't. FireFox does not stay in memory, it happily exits on first chance, and them browser tabs get WASTED.

So to sum it up: on Android apps you don't want to run, they run. But the apps you want to stay in RAM, they exit. Freaking amazing.

The main source of the problem are: developers. And by developers I mean not coders because they don't always make the decision about whether to provide certain settings or not; whether to make app stay in memory or not. In an ideal world multitasking model of Android OS would work very well, perhaps:
- Browser has option to stay in memory
- Games do not Auto-Restart to check updates and post notifications about "bonus experience". Ever.
- Messenger apps have option to stay in memory, but also an option to log off (Skype, I am looking at you).
A lot of apps will often work NOT like you want them to.

Here is a good example: YouTube app. I want it to work OnLy when I start it. But no. On Android, it starts on boot, then checks updates. Then exits. Then checks updates again. lawl? No idea what it checks, but you can see it for yourself. Install YouTube for Android. Restart your phone. It's here. force-close youtube. Check list of processes in an hour. It's there. Many apps either run when they should not or quit when they should not.

 

[a5cent]

Though you are technically right, they are the opposite to 'true' multitasking, a discussion about 'true' multitasking is certainly going to mislead and brings back the Motorola vs Intel cpu discussions of yesteryear. I am using the term in the modern sense of 'getting stuff done in apps that I'm not tapping at right now' and unfortunately that will irritate the old guard immensely. They (we) can handle that better than making this an impenetrable discussion about processor cores, thread priorities, command queues and microcode instruction sets/cpu design philosophy.

Essentially, this has to be a high level discussion about results rather than technical methodology. About what we actually want to achieve. Yes, some real time priorities happen regularly with phones and 'true' multitasking does happen (hence multicore apu) but such low level considerations are not suitable for phone users to manipulate.

PCs are another matter however, and I'm not sure how MS intends to address this in the universal app world. Currently it's rather messy.

Yeah. I agree with most of that.

I disagree only that there is a more modern definition of the world "multitasking". There is one definition, which is used by hardware/software engineers of all ages, which you'll also find on any website offering a formal definition of the term, and one used by laymen who have difficulty describing their wants and needs in a more accurate way, who often use the word to describe:

a) anything that can happen without the user having to poke their finger at it.
b) the ability to quickly and elegantly switch between apps.

I'll stick to the technical definition of the word, but as long as it's clear which definition is being used, I don't see a problem. That isn't the issue here though. My more general point was that the ability to update live tiles in the background doesn't satisfy anybody's idea of what multitasking should be, neither the engineer's nor the layman's. Updating live tiles and creating notifications is really all background tasks on WP are good for. That's why background tasks are only tangentially a multitasking related topic, no matter what definition of the word any of us prefer.

I'm wondering if some here are thinking "I want files to download in the background", or "I want apps to control my LED when running in the background", and somehow, possibly solely through word association, think that's what background tasks are intended for? In hindsight, it seems some may be thinking that. Such a misunderstanding would make it clear to me, why some are quick to criticize the OS rather than developers, since there is no intuitive connection between those concepts and the things people are asking for.

 

[AndyCalling]

Well, you see, I'm a bit of a renaissance man. I have a number of diverse qualifications from my extended university days (software engineering, educational psychology, theology (focussed on ethics and psychology of human belief), English, film studies and critical theory) not to mention post university interests in the far too many years since then. I think my university thought I'd never leave (I managed to score a number of grants and the like in different times). You see precise technical terms as I do, but I also see evolving language based on common usage and understanding. The non-technical use of the term is much less precise. Very annoying, and very inspiring at the same time. It is not really a more modern definition, but the collision with IT is a modern phenomenon which is driving linguistic evolution.

Yes, tile updating is not enough but the concept could be extended to cover other uses. The idea that such is true multitasking would, unfortunately, be encouraged by this however. That could lead to greater functionality causing greater dissatisfaction due to 'basic stuff' being 'missed out' by 'incompetent Microsoft' which is ruddy annoying. I love the way MS has made this OS battery and resource friendly, but it is conceptually different to non-technical human concepts of multi-tasking.

This is what gives rise to thinking background tasks can do more than brief data set updates, I expect. And they could, but such would get out of control very quickly if there were not huge limitations. I think there is room to move the boundary a bit but not much. I find it hard to imagine satisfying the ideals mentioned. I fear it is thought that tiles could become mini app interfaces to constantly running apps through widget style controls. Sure, on my desktop PC. Not on my tablet though, let alone my phone. Even on my PC that would need much user consideration to avoid a messy system. I do think a PC requires a greater degree of user understanding than a phone however, or it will become a phone with a big screen which would be awful.

Is this how the phablet kills the home PC? Saint Clive Sinclair preserve us!

Still, someone has to leave the cave or we'll never develop fire. Just remember to offer an appropriate sacrifice to the great Zilog before you do.

 

[chmun77]

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. Every single point you made in the post I quoted from is incorrect. I just don't understand how you (and one or two others) can essentially make up a problem, and then start pointing fingers and placing blame, particularly when those points are so easily disproven... no skills or developer knowledge required.

A)
That MS' own apps can play music in the background while 3rd party apps can't is BS. Download pretty much any music app from the store to prove yourself wrong. It's astounding that you think live tiles are the only background capability WP has..

B)
I doubt multiple developers told you that it's impossible to download files in the background due to an OS limitation. If they did then they were just not interested in providing the feature you requested, and wanted to shut you up, by sending you off to complain about MS and WP rather than their own app. It's more likely that you just didn't understand what they were saying however.

Either way, I already provided an example of a 3rd party app that CAN download files in the background. Download UC Browser and easily prove yourself wrong again, but no...

C)
All your other opinions are derived from your incorrect understanding of the above.

Conclusion:

At this point, continuing to complain about multitasking on WP, a topic you've shown to have no understanding of, just makes you look silly.

WP obviously has problems in the multitasking department, but with few exceptions (no, the feature-based multitasking on WP is not perfect) they are not a consequence of OS limitations.

We all know that WP has an app quality and feature gap, but as soon as "multitasking" is thrown into the debate, developers have no responsibilities and it's all WP's fault... somehow, on this specific issue, a sizable portion of the WP community is still stuck in 2011 and using WP7.

First of all, I do respect your knowledge of technical details of multitasking and I'm not a WP developer.

However, coming from user point of view, Windows Phone is far from being a multitasking OS.

A) I did not say 3rd party music apps are unable to play music in the background. What I'm saying is 3rd party apps are behaving so differently as compared to MS native apps. I did tried 3prd party music apps from the store before and most of them tend to Restart / Resuming the moment I need them to be in the foreground again. Why so?? Dev or the OS fault?? I dunno and I don't want to know because as a consumer, this is just frustrating.

B) I'm just sharing my experiences with the devs I emailed to in the forum. That's all. Is up to you to believe it or not. Sure, they can shut me off by all means and I will just leave the platform for good since the apps do not meet my expectations. Who cares?? I'm just a consumer.

C) Perhaps I misunderstood how Windows Phone multitasking works. I'm fine with that. All I asking for is I need my downloading queues to continue even the apps are not in the foreground. Simple as that. But WP cannot provide me that! You can give me tons of technical explanations but if at the end of the day, I still cannot achieve what I can on Android.

I shall end my point here. I hope Windows 10 can provide me a better user experiences when comes to multitasking.

Edited: Just discovered this on my 1020 (which is considered as a slow coach phone now). Was playing music via the MS Music app. Phone went into sleep mode, unlock it to wake it up, and voila! I see the "Resuming...." thingy again. Music is still playing, but this freaking Resuming thingy is coming up from everywhere. Not sure if it is trying to repaint the UI or whatsoever. I don't see such crap on Android, and I reckon not on iOS as well. How many updates we had for this music app already and it is still showing the infamous Resuming thingy. OS fault? Developers fault?? Users fault?? Slow hardware?? /shrug.

 

[MohamedWaheed]

Thanks for the heads up! I haven't really looked at W10M yet, so I wasn't aware.

On the other hand, I'm not yet convinced this is really the solution I was talking about. What if an app wanted to use the flashlight to blink S.O.S while the app is in the background? Maybe you're right, but I'd be surprised if that worked without requiring changes to the APIs, which WP8.1 apps can't take advantage of.

As a feedback, I checked if the same app can run S.O.S mode in background, The result was No it can't just the steady flash mode only.

Anyway, I just need to add that If you tried W10M with all your knowledge, I think you will notice that there is a change on the way it handle background tasks. Even I can download files in background with IE or Spartan, In addition when you playing youtube video and press the Start button you will notice that it still running.

Overall, I don't care with "Multitasking" or "Background Tasks" Technical Definition, As a customer the thing I need is to operate all the apps I need at the same time and go from that app to another with the multitask screen and this is what in W10M Already. All the apps you opened will be on this screen. I go from Word App to Spartan To Outlook To Facebook To whatsapp as all are opened.

 

[a5cent]

As a feedback, I checked if the same app can run S.O.S mode in background, The result was No it can't just the steady flash mode only.

I'd wager that what you're observing is nothing more than W10M no longer automatically turning the light back off, when the app that turned it on is suspended (no longer in the foreground). That means the flashlight app isn't running in the background on W10M any more than it was on WP8.1. That would also explain why the flashlight app can't blink S.O.S. when not in the foreground.

That's just a guess, but I'd bet on it...

Anyway, I just need to add that If you tried W10M with all your knowledge, I think you will notice that there is a change on the way it handle background tasks. Even I can download files in background with IE or Spartan, In addition when you playing youtube video and press the Start button you will notice that it still running.

I'm looking forward to doing so... maybe the next preview of W10M.

Here again though, I'd like to stress that what you're seeing is NOT a change in how W10M handles background tasks or multitasking. I think we'll see very few changes in that area... if any! What you are seeing, which has been my main point all along in this thread, are improvements to apps!

UC Browser has long been able to download files in the background on WP8.x, and as you say, Spartan on W10M can now do so too (finally!). That's not the OS that is changing, but the browser!

Metrotube has long been able to continue playing YouTube videos in the background on WP8.x, but IE couldn't. I suspect you're saying Spartan can now do that too. Again... it's the browser that is changing, not the OS' multitasking capabilities.

Overall, I don't care with "Multitasking" or "Background Tasks" Technical Definition, As a customer the thing I need is to operate all the apps I need at the same time and go from that app to another with the multitask screen and this is what in W10M Already. All the apps you opened will be on this screen. I go from Word App to Spartan To Outlook To Facebook To whatsapp as all are opened.

Nor should you have to care. On the other hand, this is an enthusiast site where many of its members are at least somewhat interested in how these things actually work, so I don't think my explanations are completely in vain.

I'm not trying to turn everyone here into engineers. However, I do want to help those who are interested in gaining a better understanding of what is going on and help prevent FUD from spreading in the WCentral community.

 

[tgp]

First of all, I do respect your knowledge of technical details of multitasking and I'm not a WP developer.

However, coming from user point of view, Windows Phone is far from being a multitasking OS.

a5cent, I think you need to observe these two statements. Before reading chmun77's post here, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Here is a TL;DR:

I know that you're a developer and have a deep knowledge of the technicalities of the WP OS. The things you say are probably correct, technically speaking.

However, the consumer doesn't care. We don't care whether or not it SHOULD work, or if it COULD work, but we care whether or not it DOES work. And as chmun77 pointed out, the things he's complaining about DO NOT work. Maybe they could, but they don't. Who cares if it's the OS's fault or the developer's fault? At then end of the day, the functionality is not there.

 

[a5cent]

However, coming from user point of view, Windows Phone is far from being a multitasking OS.

I understand what you dislike and share all those dislikes. I just disagree with how you're saying it, primarily because it can lead to the spread of misinformation.

I did tried 3prd party music apps from the store before and most of them tend to Restart / Resuming the moment I need them to be in the foreground again. Why so?? Dev or the OS fault?? I dunno and I don't want to know because as a consumer, this is just frustrating.

You're asking why, but at the same time saying you don't want to know why. Either way, I already hinted as to why in a post further up.

WP could remove all multitasking restrictions which would unfortunately not improve anything about the resuming delay. However, you're completely right that this is an OS issue that MS deserves to be yelled at for... have at it...

Edited: Just discovered this on my 1020 (which is considered as a slow coach phone now). Was playing music via the MS Music app. Phone went into sleep mode, unlock it to wake it up, and voila! I see the "Resuming...." thingy again. Music is still playing, but this freaking Resuming thingy is coming up from everywhere. Not sure if it is trying to repaint the UI or whatsoever. I don't see such crap on Android, and I reckon not on iOS as well. How many updates we had for this music app already and it is still showing the infamous Resuming thingy. OS fault? Developers fault?? Users fault?? Slow hardware?? /shrug.

Same as above... Developers can contribute to making an app resume faster, but the fact that it's necessary at all is on MS' shoulders.

All I asking for is I need my downloading queues to continue even the apps are not in the foreground. Simple as that. But WP cannot provide me that! You can give me tons of technical explanations but if at the end of the day, I still cannot achieve what I can on Android.

Wrong. WP can provide you that! It's the apps that aren't providing it. My hope is that this conversation, with all the technical background I've tried to provide, will make you more confident when discussing your requirements with developers. The next time a developer tries to shut you up, by telling you that it's impossible to download files in the background on WP, I hope you'll be able to call them out on their BS!

 

[a5cent]

However, the consumer doesn't care. We don't care whether or not it SHOULD work, or if it COULD work, but we care whether or not it DOES work. And as chmun77 pointed out, the things he's complaining about DO NOT work. Maybe they could, but they don't. Who cares if it's the OS's fault or the developer's fault? At then end of the day, the functionality is not there.

I don't believe you that people don't care. IMHO this thread proves that people are, at the very least, looking for someone to point their finger at. I'm just trying to help them point their finger in the right direction.

Developers need to feel the heat when things don't work the way customers expect. At least in regard to this issue, they aren't.

 

[MohamedWaheed]

I'd wager that what you're observing is nothing more than W10M no longer automatically turning the light back off, when the app that turned it on is suspended (no longer in the foreground). That means the flashlight app isn't running in the background on W10M any more than it was on WP8.1. That would also explain why the flashlight app can't blink S.O.S. when not in the foreground.

That's just a guess, but I'd bet on it...



I'm looking forward to doing so... maybe the next preview of W10M.

Here again though, I'd like to stress that what you're seeing is NOT a change in how W10M handles background tasks or multitasking. I think we'll see very few changes in that area... if any! What you are seeing, which has been my main point all along in this thread, are improvements to apps!

UC Browser has long been able to download files in the background on WP8.x, and as you say, Spartan on W10M can now do so too (finally!). That's not the OS that is changing, but the browser!

Metrotube has long been able to continue playing YouTube videos in the background on WP8.x, but IE couldn't. I suspect you're saying Spartan can now do that too. Again... it's the browser that is changing, not the OS' multitasking capabilities.



Nor should you have to care. On the other hand, this is an enthusiast site where many of its members are at least somewhat interested in how these things actually work, so I don't think my explanations are completely in vain.

I'm not trying to turn everyone here into engineers. However, I do want to help those who are interested in gaining a better understanding of what is going on and help prevent FUD from spreading in the WCentral community.

I think you get me wrong. I am with your idea that the OS has multitasking and the current situation is from the bad apps or laziness from the developers.

When I said I don't care I meant I don't care about the technical definition as we are discussing "multitasking" or "background tasks". But of course I care about having multitasking OS whatever the way it handles it.

Again I hope after you try W10M to post your thoughts.

 

[AndyCalling]

I don't believe you that people don't care. IMHO this thread proves that people are, at the very least, looking for someone to point their finger at. I'm just trying to help them point their finger in the right direction.

Developers need to feel the heat when things don't work the way customers expect. At least in regard to this issue, they aren't.

+1

The 'resuming' delay is an uncommon thing on my 820 and even when present will usually be so brief as to be negligible. On my 930 it is very rare. I guess it comes from two issues:

When apps are tombstoned, so the battery is not sucked dry and so the foreground app has full resources, I expect they are suspended to ram. If that ram is needed by the foreground app then apps will gradually be moved to secondary storage to free up ram resources. Think of the difference between hibernating and sleep on your laptop.

So the two issues are:

1) If you have low ram (512meg) you will see tombstoned apps memory state sent to secondary storage more often. This will increase the recovery time a bit.

2) If your secondary storage is pretty full its performance will drop significantly (think of the way your SSD reacts when almost full on your desktop PC).

So, try to free up as much internal space as possible by migrating all you can to the SD card (not made easy as MS have banned moving maps to SD for no good reason I can determine, luckily my 820 still has the old app to do this. Probably a trick to pressure users into getting W10 at release). This is very essential with low flash phones like my 820 with only 8gig. Also, if you have a low ram device (512meg) you will need to ensure you close everything you don't need. Even then, expectations with a 512 device need to be low, especially if it has under 8gig of internal flash.

This will become more of a thing as apps get bigger. As apps start to be designed around the universal model they will want to use more resources. Even if you can cram them on to a 512 phone, you will often have to give up fast resuming. Less than 8gig storage will be very painful (I wouldn't buy even 8 today). Also, the move to 2gig min practical ram size will accelerate quickly for universal apps so that 1gig ram device has a clock ticking. Keep your next upgrade in mind.

 

[Kevin Rush]

I want more live tiles running all at once and I want them to update more often. Then I want developers to use them and update the content more often. This would be possible with improved multitasking, right?

Just my two cents.
Best Wishes

 

[AndyCalling]

I want more live tiles running all at once and I want them to update more often. Then I want developers to use them and update the content more often. This would be possible with improved multitasking, right?

Just my two cents.
Best Wishes

Yes, but at the cost of battery power. I would love a warning when 'tile drain' is getting high (perhaps with a dedicated meter in 'Battery Saver'). Then the user can make the tough power budget choices. The current 'system' of silently breaking tile updates is not good and something MS needs to address.