I Don't Understand the Backlash Against Xbox One and Praise for PS4

coip

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coip: Human nature; it's one thing to do it voluntarily but being told to submit to unnecessary DRM it triggers an automatic rebel response.



Well, the developers who lose millions of dollars due to piracy probably wouldn't describe it as "unnecessary DRM", but, yes, I understand the backlash--I just don't understand why it's not aimed at Sony too (they're still allowing it), or why it never came against Apple or Google for iOS and Android for doing the same thing.

1. Home consoles are NOT the same as cell phones. Apples and oranges. What if my internet goes down at home, or I don't need it? I'd like to still be able to use my console.
2. I don't play PC games, so it doesn't currently affect me. I'd like to be able to whatever I want with the physical media I have purchased, whether that's lending to someone else or selling it to a 2nd hand retailer.
3. Yea, DRM is coming for everyone so no way to get around this. However, I view mandatory DRM for all games on a console different than leaving it up to the publisher, but not a big difference.
4. We'll see. Benefits of digital are really just promises right now. Whatever the new SimCity is promised all of the benefits of cloud computing and that seems to have turned into a complete disaster.
5. Couldn't care less about the eye or Kinect. I think forcing it on consumers or publishers is a mistake.

These are just my reasons for purchasing a PS4 to start. I'm sure the Xbox One will be a great system, and when it eventually drops in price I may pick one up. For now, I just don't see the added benefit to justify the extra 100

In a basic sense, they are pretty much the same: they're devices you use to access and play games. But, yeah, I feel the same way: it would be nice to have the option to play offline if that's your cup of tea or if the 'Net goes out or if you want to go vacation up in the mountains or whatever. But we've got to consider the pros and cons of it all. I think I'm ready to give that up to get the benefits of cloud-based gaming (not just the performance improvements of updates and cloud processing, but the ability to no longer haul around physical media, although I realize some people like this). You can still lend games and sell them. In some ways it's more restrictive (i.e., only being able to be sold once), but in other ways it's easier (sharing with up to 10 friends digitally and remotely). As for 'mandatory DRM' vs. leaving it up to the publisher, I prefer Microsoft's route as I like standardization. I memorize the rules once, and that's that. Sony's strategy is going to create chaos with some publishers doing X, some doing Y, and some doing Z. Yes, I've read that the promised cloud computing benefits of Sim City didn't live up to expectations, and I cannot comment much on it since I'm not a computer programmer, but I don't think Microsoft would be touting it so much if it was just a gimmick. My point is that I'm not a fan of the DRM thing either, particularly the check-ins, but I don't get why people think PS4 will be any better.

As for the Kinect, that is what excites me the most. My experience with the original Kinect was piqued interest that quickly faded: most of the motion control is clumsy and quickly gets old. But, that's first generation hardware and software. With each generation it will get better, especially with Microsoft motivating developers to innovate by bundling it with the system. Sure, right now nothing beats the controller, but I for one sure hope that ten, twenty years from now we aren't still sitting on a chair holding a controller. I want full body immersion, and Microsoft is pushing toward that with Kinect and Illumi Room. Sony isn't pushing the industry in the direction I want it to go: the same old games with slightly prettier graphics aren't what I want.

What I don't get is this thread supporting MS for their actions. I also don't get why this site is so MS fanatical. One thing is to like MS products but it's another level to pretend MS can do no wrong.

The step MS is proposing is a big deal, but even a bigger deal when you see the direction their heading to. If you recall they proposed denying all used games after an outcry they revered that decision but still implemented some DRM. What's to stop them from implementing this in the future via a software update?

Going to your phone analogy. Yes there are many parallels. If an app requires internet access for it to work(but is not a network app) It gets uninstalled. I also do not willingly give my information out to any app, it must justify the need else it will not be installed. However there is one major difference in your analogy not all apps have DRM. I use Android and I can backup my apps and have them work on any future Android device. Also the average App cost a few dollars while these console game cost $60. I own all three consoles and I will say this if MS does not change their direction I will only support the WII and PS.=X=

Don't get me wrong: I'm not an advocate of what Microsoft is doing (although, I do think it's better than what Sony is doing). I just feel that people are freaking out about things they already do (being constantly connected on their Xbox 360s or smartphones), and defecting to Sony for things that will undoubtedly exist on the PS4 too. I recall them softening their stance on the used games, and I think that's good. I hope they soften it in other ways too (particularly, the 24-hour check-in). As for the price difference between consoles and smart phone apps, presumably this DRM junk is also going to result in lower prices for console games too, as it did on Steam. Here's to hoping that comes true, otherwise the consumer really is getting shortchanged.

The difference here is, Apple started as a digital download, so did Windows Phone, and other types of devices, Android, etc. Digital downloads are the way they are and I, with most people accept that. This is totally different from the issue at hand.

The issue is with PHYSICAL MEDIA. When you buy a disc, you should have a right to do what you want with the disc. Sell, give away, or what ever you want. The courts decided how people have the right to sell their music CD and it would almost apply here.

Microsoft is trying to turn everything to digital in a market that has always been based on Physical media, cart, CD or DVD based. Sony saw the reaction from people, and played off it, this is why they look like the golden child here..This is the problem and till it's addressed, it's a major problem with me, as others...this is the big deal with used games.

I think they're going to argue that the Xbox One is no longer a physical media machine, much like PC software. Yes, you get a physical disc, but it's only for installation purposes (so you don't have to download 50GB games all the time). In this sense, the past is gone. Apple and Valve changed it and everyone is going to follow suit. It will face some growing pains, but ultimately I think the pros outweigh the cons as long as we're thinking from an innovation point of view. Again, I get the backlash against this; I just don't get why gamers don't realize that Sony's move was just PR bull**** and that the PS4 will be the same way.
 

coip

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IMO the real problem is not the policies or limitations as, for myself and I think for most connected people, the advantages outweigh the limitations. The uproar though is Microsofts fault for not explaining long ago that the future Xbox would be a digital only system and start touting those benefits like family share etc. so people had a chance to digest it all long before reveal and E3 and then blow them away with great games at E3 and announce more features etc. I think this was their general strategy but it was poorly timed, poorly implemented and poorly communicated (and is still not being communicated).

The more people learn and compare the old (ps4) way of doing things to the new a lot will change their view but it could have been so much easier if MS had any marketing sense. I still expect them to announce other benefits, possibly have an offline "solution" or maybe even hdmi 360 integration before launch but why hold back if these are in the works? I love the Xbox One and most MS products but their PR dept. sucks.

I totally agree with you. I have the same frustration with Microsoft's PR and marketing departments. They're just atrocious at it, in all areas too. These ads that are finally coming out now for Surface and Windows tablets vs. iPads, these should've been released 8 months ago. Same with all this Xbox One backlash. They should've had a well scripted game plan where they clearly lauded all the benefits of what they're doing. Instead, they thought they could just throw it out there nonchalantly, people wouldn't react, and they could move on. How they didn't see this coming is very perplexing, especially after the firestorm a few months ago with that one Microsoft employee on Twitter telling people to stop whining and then mocking people who live in rural areas, and then with the firestorm EA faced with Sim City over DRM they should've factored that in, and even now with the current story of the Microsoft rep telling people who don't like Xbox One policies to stick with the Xbox 360. It just all comes off as condescending and poorly thought out and it is mind-boggling to me. What they should be doing is clearly explaining the pros of everything they're doing.
 

Keith Wallace

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So who with an Xbox 360 is going to "rebel" and switch with Halo 5 in the works? Sure some, but I have a feeling most will calm down and just buy the Xbox One.

In my case, I'll not be truly rebelling. I'll stick solely to the Xbox 360. Nintendo makes horrid home consoles, to put it lightly. Sony doesn't give me enough franchises I like to warrant a second online subscription to PSN+ and another console investment. The Xbox One has too many terrible software design choices to support it right now.

I want Halo 5, no doubt, but I also expect that since they say that the Xbox 360 will be supported for AT LEAST 3-4 more years, then we would likely get Halo 5, considering it is the flagship franchise under the Xbox brand. I don't think they're dumb enough to alienate owners, tell them to get/keep their 360s, then tell them they won't put out Halo on the Xbox 360 as well.
 

Etios

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They deserve all the backlash, first they announced the 24hrs check-in thingy, then responded to the complaints by suggesting to get a 360.

Even all this was fine to me But the final straw was the one year late release in Asia and region-locking so i can't even import, So Sony PS4 is what i will buy.
 

Mystictrust

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I want Halo 5, no doubt, but I also expect that since they say that the Xbox 360 will be supported for AT LEAST 3-4 more years, then we would likely get Halo 5, considering it is the flagship franchise under the Xbox brand. I don't think they're dumb enough to alienate owners, tell them to get/keep their 360s, then tell them they won't put out Halo on the Xbox 360 as well.
Not sure about that. I believe Halo 5 will stay on the Xbox One. They truly designed it completely for that system, including 60fps and the cloud-based processing. I MAY have even seen an interview with someone from 343 Industries claiming that they definitely wouldn't be bringing this to the Xbox 360. And I wouldn't say that them not bringing Halo 5 to Xbox 360 is "alienating" their previous customers. They may very well have hundreds of games coming, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean Halo is part of that. I don't think it is "alienating" their Xbox 360 customers because of that... are all these games suddenly invalidated because of that? I'm picking up a couple of games that have been confirmed to not be coming to Xbox One, and they will make me MORE than happy. Well, that and I'm looking forward to more sales on Xbox 360 digital downloads that I can take advantage of.
 

WPButtcheeks

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Take that with a pinch of salt - its from a supposed programmer on the xbox team and hes saying that xbox are moving towards a steam like model - theres no reason why you couldn't get steam like prices and sales but its down to the developers to decide - and nothings been decided yet.
You can get steam like deals from PSN now. Compared to Xbox Lives lackluster sales.
 

Keith Wallace

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Not sure about that. I believe Halo 5 will stay on the Xbox One. They truly designed it completely for that system, including 60fps and the cloud-based processing. I MAY have even seen an interview with someone from 343 Industries claiming that they definitely wouldn't be bringing this to the Xbox 360. And I wouldn't say that them not bringing Halo 5 to Xbox 360 is "alienating" their previous customers. They may very well have hundreds of games coming, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean Halo is part of that. I don't think it is "alienating" their Xbox 360 customers because of that... are all these games suddenly invalidated because of that? I'm picking up a couple of games that have been confirmed to not be coming to Xbox One, and they will make me MORE than happy. Well, that and I'm looking forward to more sales on Xbox 360 digital downloads that I can take advantage of.

I just mean that for all of the backlash that's come, it'd be tough to find something worse than telling everyone who can't find a tenable solution to owning an Xbox One as-is to buy an Xbox 360, then come back and tell them they won't be getting the franchise that literally BUILT THE BRAND. In the case of many, Halo is the whole reason they are with the Xbox ecosystem. Taking that away is perhaps worse than taking any other aspect of the console away.
 

Keith Wallace

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This happens at E3 all the time, but not surprising that MS is in the spotlight for it...

Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards

"[Update: PS4 developers state that their games were running on actual PS4 dev kits, not high-end PCs]"

Makes is sound even worse. Admittedly, it's pretty pathetic that they wouldn't even use a Windows 8 machine. What were they thinking there? I must say, the first comment seems to be the best way to look at it:

"I don't get it, did they run a drunk bet in Microsoft's offices, to see who could manage to screw up more?"
 

Mystictrust

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"[Update: PS4 developers state that their games were running on actual PS4 dev kits, not high-end PCs]"
Pretending for a second that dev kits don't actually have superior specs to the actual console, the smart move was to run the demos on similar hardware (not sure what to think about the video card situation, but how did they know that Nvidia was used again?). If Microsoft ran their demos off the actual Xbox One, with unfinished software, firmware, optimizations, etc... and it froze up like Sony's games did at their press conference, Microsoft would be in even MORE hot water now than they already are. Sony mostly got a free pass from the freezing thanks to the DRM situation and how they pitched it at their event, but Microsoft would have gotten no such pass.

On that note, I could hardly watch the Destiny game play when onstage at the Sony event. There had already been freezing and stuttering in the beginning, not to mention the AC4 snafu, and I was actually looking away and hoping they would end the game play really soon, before more disaster struck. It turned out it didn't matter after the DRM announcement, but it almost mattered. And it was painful to watch.

Idiotic for not using Windows 8 though. I mean, wtf, it's been out for nearly a year now. Lame.
 

Keith Wallace

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I didn't even watch the Sony stuff (there was not chance I'd be interested), and I still haven't watched much of the Microsoft stuff (I got about half of the keynote on DVR, because I forgot it was coming on until it had already started, and I haven't watched all of it yet), so I cannot speak to those things.

Determining the graphics card could have come in probably 4 major ways:

1. Looking up the desktop's model number, and finding out it comes with an NVIDIA card.
2. Opening up the machine and seeing for himself.
3. Asking one of the people on-hand.
4. On Windows 7, you can go into the settings and look at what the hardware in the PC is.

That, and there is free software (like CPU-ID) that can tell you, thought I doubt it was installed on that PC. My guess is that he either opened up the setting menu with the information out of curiosity, or he maybe popped the side of the case off. Not sure that an employee would have freely admitted it, and most desktops come with numerous configurations, including both AMD and NVIDIA graphics cards in some of them.
 

Keith Wallace

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For the next 6 months there will be some pretty good deals. especially the two free 360 games a month. I got fable 3 already. Anxious to see what else is coming...

Well, it was said that Halo 3 and Assassin's Creed 2 would come. The problem I have there is that such an offer runs at al times for PSN-Plus. When I first heard about the deal, I thought Microsoft was following Sony's lead. Instead, it sounds like they're just trying to incentivize late-2013 Xbox 360 purchases, in my opinion.
 

Mystictrust

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Well, it was said that Halo 3 and Assassin's Creed 2 would come. The problem I have there is that such an offer runs at al times for PSN-Plus. When I first heard about the deal, I thought Microsoft was following Sony's lead. Instead, it sounds like they're just trying to incentivize late-2013 Xbox 360 purchases, in my opinion.
I'm thinking of it like this (looking on the brighter side). What if they're adding value by testing it out up through the Xbox One launch, and will later shift the program to Xbox One at some point in the future? Without backwards compatibility, they can't commit to supporting two free games a month on Xbox One without a backlog of cheaper games they can take the hit on. On that note, I'm sure curious how Sony will handle the free PS4 game (or games) with PSN+... It might end up being indie titles or something, I don't know.
 

Mystictrust

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I didn't even watch the Sony stuff (there was not chance I'd be interested), and I still haven't watched much of the Microsoft stuff (I got about half of the keynote on DVR, because I forgot it was coming on until it had already started, and I haven't watched all of it yet), so I cannot speak to those things.
Assassin's Creed IV froze up several times on Sony, and eventually froze so bad that they had to prematurely cancel the demo play, with a very sad look on the face of the developer who was live playing the game on stage. It wasn't just that game though since it continued to happen after that.

You said you have a 360, right? There's an E3 tile on the home screen and you can watch the briefing and all three days of the live show gaming interviews. I know your internet is crappy but you can try at least, make up for what you couldn't record on DVR.

I think it's also streaming via various PC websites, or even YouTube where you could buffer it
 

Keith Wallace

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Assassin's Creed IV froze up several times on Sony, and eventually froze so bad that they had to prematurely cancel the demo play, with a very sad look on the face of the developer who was live playing the game on stage. It wasn't just that game though since it continued to happen after that.

You said you have a 360, right? There's an E3 tile on the home screen and you can watch the briefing and all three days of the live show gaming interviews. I know your internet is crappy but you can try at least, make up for what you couldn't record on DVR.

I think it's also streaming via various PC websites, or even YouTube where you could buffer it

YouTube really doesn't buffer right on my computer. I'm not sure if it's my Internet, or YouTube's manner of buffering is just total crap. For example, if it's a 3-minute video I'm trying to watch, it'll buffer the first 30 seconds or so, then just refuse to load the rest. I'll run through the first 30 seconds, then have to restart the video to re-initialize the buffering, or refresh the page. On occasion, I'll have to do that multiple times. I'm not sure of the reason, but it's just another frustration that makes me REALLY dislike Google and its services.

But yeah, I know that it's around to watch, I've just not bothered to want to sit and watch it because it's such a long event. I probably will at SOME point, just not right now. That must be a pretty sinking feeling for developers, though, to have their games completely fail to perform on-stage. That's the upside to not using dev kits, I guess, but it's also something I wouldn't fault anyone for--imperfection 5 months from release. They have time to fix that all.

Do they know (read: have they said) what caused the problems? Was it the actual PS4 hardware? Just randomly thought that they might have been using a wireless network to stream the video and it got congested or generally failed, but the console itself didn't suffer from those problems.
 

Keith Wallace

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I'm thinking of it like this (looking on the brighter side). What if they're adding value by testing it out up through the Xbox One launch, and will later shift the program to Xbox One at some point in the future? Without backwards compatibility, they can't commit to supporting two free games a month on Xbox One without a backlog of cheaper games they can take the hit on. On that note, I'm sure curious how Sony will handle the free PS4 game (or games) with PSN+... It might end up being indie titles or something, I don't know.

I agree that's a possibility, but it's hard to take everything good on a "what if?" basis, while the negatives seem to be 100% ready to go from launch. We have firm knowledge of the check-in and the price disappointment (in my opinion) and the Kinect requirements and all of that, but everything that MIGHT redeem the console is on a speculation basis. Hard to buy in to these problems on "maybe," and possibilities for the future. In my opinion, Microsoft should work to port their own games to the Xbox One, at least some of them. That would provide them with a starter package of free games they could give away, if that was their plan. That, or they could simply give indie developers more open support, and flat-out tell them that their games will have the publishing fees waived, and Microsoft will subsidize a couple each month, meaning gamers get the 2 (or however many) free games, while having Microsoft still make sure that indie developers get their money.

As for how Sony will handle it, they will probably do something to incentivize porting indie titles, and they said they intend to use GaiKai to support backwards compatibility via streaming.
 

EchoRedux

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I don't think people who defend Microsoft on their 24 hour check in have ever brought a system with them on a trip or a vacation. If there's no reliable internet, you cannot play games even in single player mode. Since PS4 gives me an important "option" that is available on every other console except for the xbox one, I can't see myself purchasing the xbox one.
 

Keith Wallace

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I don't think people who defend Microsoft on their 24 hour check in have ever brought a system with them on a trip or a vacation. If there's no reliable internet, you cannot play games even in single player mode. Since PS4 gives me an important "option" that is available on every other console except for the xbox one, I can't see myself purchasing the xbox one.

How many options are there for trips without reliable Internet nowadays? Even Disney World offers free WiFi now (they charged $10/day when we went in late-2008/early-2009, but it was free in June/July 2012). Most hotels offer free WiFi. Odds are, if you go on one of the few trips in which you are not near Internet, you are:

1. Somewhere without electricity (camping)
2. Somewhere you won't have much time to play (remote family reunion?)

I guess if you go on a long, cross-country trip in a big RV, that's possible, but can't you get Internet in an RV nowadays?
 

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