Long Time Android Guy... Gone Windows Phone...and the Story!

[neo158]

I feel like Android has truly destroyed the way the word "flagship" is perceived. In another topic, someone used the example that: instead of Samsung fixing the problems with TouchWiz, they just packed in stronger hardware... and that truly is an ***-backwards approach. Lag in high-end phones is almost always an issue with crappy coding.

Being a flagship phone isn't about throwing in the best-in-class processing and graphical unit, it's about creating a device that represents the underlying operating system the best. Which is why the Lumia 830 with it's meager SD400 can be considered a flagship. The definition has simply become lost and is seen through jaded eyes. If there is heavy emphasis on a function such as storage sense and the phone is unable to take advantage of that, having a SD800 won't make it the one to best represent the OS... which is why we have so many 1520 fans that weren't thrilled by the Lumia Icon. You don't need a Snapdragon 805 and the biggest and baddest Adreno if there is core optimization, and big numbers don't *make* a flagship, they just impress people who aren't tech savvy.

I absolutely agree with you on this, Flagship should be used to describe phones that showcase the OS not phones that just pack in the fastest most powerful hardware.

 

[a5cent]

^ I will also voice my agreement with this. Although I think the same can be said of almost any term that becomes "consumerized". The term "Multitasking" would be another example. No software engineer worth their salt would ever use the term the way it is typically used on forums across the web. Lag is another example of a term that has pretty much lost all meaning. The only difference to the word "flagship" is that "flagship" may not even have had a clear meaning to begin with.

 

[OwenDL]

Great read. I feel like alot of WP bashers never do what you did-- they'd rather just label it with every negative and demeaning term they can find with never actually experiencing it.

I'd be interested in the same story but from the viewpoint of an Apple user. Let us gather ammunition to supply the proof that WP isn't as far behind as some people think.

EDIT: to a5cent- I'm one of those people who describes FPS stutter in games as 'lag', I'm sorry to admit. Although I am well aware of its appropriate usage, it's just too easy to use it for everything else.

 

[SlingLaker9811]

Awesome article! +10,00000000000

 

[satrus08]

And your criticism of the Android's battery life, you failed to grasp the fact that the Nexus 5 ran a 1080p 5 inch display and a Snapdragon 800 and this is one reason why battery life takes a hit, it doesn't mean all Android devices have bad battery life, for god's sakes. In fact devices that are credited with having the best battery lives are often Android ones...

Massive dislike.

I thought that it has already been shown that windows phone does offer better battery life? The htc one m8. Same phone, two OS's. The m8s with WP offered longer battery life.

 

[salmanahmad]

I thought that it has already been shown that windows phone does offer better battery life? The htc one m8. Same phone, two OS's. The m8s with WP offered longer battery life.

That could be caused because of a number of reasons, primarily because Android handles background tasks different from Windows Phone.

All in all, it's no reason to say that Android has inconsistent battery life.

 

[a5cent]

EDIT: to a5cent- I'm one of those people who describes FPS stutter in games as 'lag', I'm sorry to admit. Although I am well aware of its appropriate usage, it's just too easy to use it for everything else.

If you were the only one we might have a reason to be mad at you :wink: As it is I don't think you need to worry.

If it were up to me I'd add all those words to the profanity filter and be rid of them all :winktongue:

 

[Guidos Dad]

I think the point is, if you are buying a flagship phone you expect a good sized HD screen, top specs, excellent build quality (and in my opinion, anything with less than a metal frame is less than flagship), lots of storage, a processor that's super smooth no matter what you throw at it, and so on. You don't need it, but if it doesn't have high end specs then it isn't flagship.

It's like buying a Bentley, you might not need one but if it only had the same specs as a Ford Mondeo you wouldn't consider it to be a luxury car. People buy expensive flagship phones because it makes them feel important, that they own a luxury product.

Agree in what Flagship means as it seems to be looked on today, have the latest OS on it and top amounts of RAM, storage space, processor speed, pixel size in the camera and screen resolution. Naming the general items. So it some one came out today with a 4 gig RAM phone with say 128 gig internal storage, that would probably make that phone the next tier for manufacturers to shoot for a Flagship phone. My point was those kind of specs are what your going to get if you want to spend on a $600-$800 phone. Ok if you want to carry around a Bentley and that makes you feel good. But, I don't feel the window phones have to have those kind of specs to be real good phones and it cost you so much to get one. Maybe that is why Microsoft appears to be targeting the low to middle level of phone hardware because they feel there is a market there for people who would like to just spend $200-$400 on the phone and they know the OS and apps will in general run well on them. Notice I said in general. Any phone out there has problems. Yes, even the iPhones. My wife has a 5 and it has had occasional software glitches from day one.

 

[TechAbstract]

This guy summed up how I felt when I moved from Android and iOS to Windows Phone.

 

[Willyman]

Hear hear. The smoothness of the UI and elegance are the only things making me stay with WP for now. I played around with a Note 4 in a shop over the weekend and I was frankly stunned by how inconsistent the performance was. Little lags and stutters all over the UI. No such thing with the new Apple devices though ... they are most definitely as smooth as WP but even faster in app opening/re-opening.

Many people have expressed their grievances in other threads that the app gap is definitely still there. What it boils down to are two main issues ...

• (big) Apps are noticeably behind in features compared to iOS/Android and get updated much less frequently
• (small) Apps typically only arrive on iOS/Android. The additional resources needed to develop for WP is typically not worth the developers time/money (small user base)

Having said that, I can just about live with the app gap, although it irks me every time I see a review for an interesting new app, especially local apps that would make living in a big foreign city (Hong Kong) easier. Just a few that come to mind (all available on Android or iOS)

• TAXI translator app - translate english street/place names to Cantonese
• Cinema app - book tickets from within app
• Pay subway fare with NFC enabled phone - Android already there, iOS surely to follow

 

[Visa Declined]

Real nice article. Thank you for sharing. Your comparison of the 520 to the S4 I feel hits the nail on the head why WP users and potential WP users need to not get fixated on thinking "flagship" windows phones have to have all this high end specs that make the phones cost $650 plus and up. WP8/8.1 does not need it.

I remember not too long ago when quad-core cpu's came out, and Windows Phone was still using only dual-cores, people were saying things like "Windows Phone doesn't need a quad-core"... but now that there is quad-core Windows Phones, everyone likes them, and realize they make our phones run better.

To me it seems like any time something new that comes out, and Windows Phone doesn't have it, everyone says "we don't need that". It's like a defense mechanism or something.

I'm sorry, but I love cutting edge technology. I want a Windows Phone with the fastest CPU available, and I'm not going to pretend like "I don't need all that" just because it's not available on Windows Phone at the time. I know we'll eventually get a bleeding edge phone, everyone will think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the "we don't need that" talk will go right out the window.

 

[heickelrrx]

I remember not too long ago when quad-core cpu's came out, and Windows Phone was still using only dual-cores, people were saying things like "Windows Phone doesn't need a quad-core"... but now that there is quad-core Windows Phones, everyone likes them, and realize they make our phones run better.

To me it seems like any time something new that comes out, and Windows Phone doesn't have it, everyone says "we don't need that". It's like a defense mechanism or something.

I'm sorry, but I love cutting edge technology. I want a Windows Phone with the fastest CPU available, and I'm not going to pretend like "I don't need all that" just because it's not available on Windows Phone at the time. I know we'll eventually get a bleeding edge phone, everyone will think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the "we don't need that" talk will go right out the window.

That's interesting statement.

Try to force your 1gen Gyoung with ICS and say that again.

The goal 4 quad core on WP isn't really performance. Newer chip got SensorCore and that's the biggest point

 

[Waylon Payne]

I remember not too long ago when quad-core cpu's came out, and Windows Phone was still using only dual-cores, people were saying things like "Windows Phone doesn't need a quad-core"... but now that there is quad-core Windows Phones, everyone likes them, and realize they make our phones run better.

To me it seems like any time something new that comes out, and Windows Phone doesn't have it, everyone says "we don't need that". It's like a defense mechanism or something.

I'm sorry, but I love cutting edge technology. I want a Windows Phone with the fastest CPU available, and I'm not going to pretend like "I don't need all that" just because it's not available on Windows Phone at the time. I know we'll eventually get a bleeding edge phone, everyone will think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the "we don't need that" talk will go right out the window.

You're entitled to your opinion...

Having the fastest cpu still doesn't make a different to the end user experience.

I could argue that having the fastest cpu is actually a problem. Just look at the battery consumption and heat generated on the 930 with its s800 compared to the 830 with the s400. The faster cpu doesn't solve any problems while also introducing new ones.

I wish these new snapdragons were engineered with the same foresight as Apples cpu's. I'd rather have fewer cores that sip less power than more cores than my laptop, that end up actually being slower and using more power.

 

[neo158]

I thought that it has already been shown that windows phone does offer better battery life? The htc one m8. Same phone, two OS's. The m8s with WP offered longer battery life.

Yeah, that's exactly it. One M8 for Windows and the One M8 for Android and the M8 for Windows had better battery life on identical hardware. Seems like Salmanahmad is in denial at the moment judging by the comments made on other threads as well.

 

[heickelrrx]

Yeah, that's exactly it. One M8 for Windows and the One M8 for Android and the M8 for Windows had better battery life on identical hardware. Seems like Salmanahmad is in denial at the moment judging by the comments made on other threads as well.

HTC one m8 really comparison devices. It run better on WP but why developer prefer develop Android apps compared to WP?

Let me give my opinion as student who study information systems.

Java is my primary language for 1st term and it's object oriented programming language. It simply can run on multi platform while Android uses Java as language in apps development. 1 time compiling and it done. Unlike C++ does which natively ru on OS.

Well java easy to understand it makes developing Android apps easy too. Current version of eclipse are good IDE for developing Android apps.

On the other hand WP use C++ or C# it's may perform better than Java but need few adjustment to change it's target platform (sometimes need build from scratch). (lazy developer out there dude and big apps may won't afford to hire more programmers who exel on C# and C++ to maintain WP back to market share agail lol)

 

[a5cent]

I remember not too long ago when quad-core cpu's came out, and Windows Phone was still using only dual-cores, people were saying things like "Windows Phone doesn't need a quad-core"... but now that there is quad-core Windows Phones, everyone likes them, and realize they make our phones run better.

Nope. I disagree on all counts.

If you distrust the WPC community, there are plenty of Android enthusiasts that are still saying the same things today that we said back then. Salmanahad is one example. He'd gladly correct you by explaining how the SoC in the current iP6 is one of the fastest around (if not fastest), while also being a dual-core design. Unfortunately, that hasn't helped the technically illiterate average joe or tech journalist get it into their heads, that CPU performance is not solely a function of the (fake) clock rates and (correct but not always relevant) core counts on spec sheets.

I also dislike the dinky quad-cores in many of todays WP devices, so no, not everybody likes them. Sure, they are adequate and do the job just fine, but they aren't as good as what might have been. I'd take the dual-core 1.3GHz SoC in the iP6 over what my L830 uses any day.

The point has never been that we don't want/need better performing devices. We do. The point has been that core count doesn't say much about actual performance (WP7 single core devices were often smoother than what we have today), so no, we don't necessarily need quad- and octa-core devices, as the realization that they make our devices run better is just plain rubbish. They might, they might not.

 

[Visa Declined]

Nope. I disagree on all counts.

I don't want the latest quad-core just because it has a faster clock speed, I want it because it brings a multitude of different improvements. The 805 will make our cameras faster, it improves the memory controller, it's more efficient, and it has the new Adreno 420 gpu.

As for Apple's new cpu's, yes I know they're extremely fast, but they were designed to perfectly match the needs of iOS. The new A8x cpu in the iPad is now a triple-core, they squeezed everything they could out of their dual-core design and are adding more cores because it makes sense.

From reading your post, it seems as though you do not believe that the latest Snapdragon will improve the performance of our devices. That doesn't make sense to me, but that's okay. I think the 805 might just eliminate the resuming issue Windows Phone has, it might fix the slow camera, and it will definitely make playing games better. It really doesn't make any sense to not want that.

 

[a5cent]

The new A8x cpu in the iPad is now a triple-core, they squeezed everything they could out of their dual-core design and are adding more cores because it makes sense.

The iPad is not the iPhone. Tablets are not smartphones.

Achieving the optimal mobile CPU design involves a long list of trade-offs between what has the most impact on perceivable performance (for the type of software used) and the power required to run it. Tablets have much larger batteries and people are far more likely to run more than one app at a time. Both make tablets a better fit for more cores, but again, if that's all there is to it, then why not add four cores like we've already got in our phones, or 64 cores for that matter?

The idea that Apple "squeezed" all the performance from two cores that they possibly could, shows you're not thinking about this in a way that matches reality. Apple could certainly have built larger and more powerful cores. In this particular iPad related scenario however, they felt using the available die space for an extra core was the better choice. For tablets that is a sensible choice. For phone's it isn't.

If Apple wants to remain within their specified thermal and power budgets, they only have a certain amount of transistors they can use. This is not comparable to the Intel desktop CPU world, where every core is identical and the more expensive CPUs just have more of them (with millions of additional transistors). All any mobile CPU designer can do is decide how they want to distribute that fixed transistor budget between all the GPU cores, CPU cores, DSPs, and caches they need.

At least from a technical point of view, and specifically for phones, distributing the transistor budget across two cores is currently the sweet spot for the majority of apps. Maybe at some point we'll get to a point where three cores offer the best performance/watt ratio for most apps, but that is still an approach that emphasizes fewer more powerful cores (with many transistors) over many weaker cores (with fewer transistors). Only for marketing purposes are more cores always better.

I think the 805 might just eliminate the resuming issue Windows Phone has.

No. You're expecting hardware to magically fix software issues.

I don't want the latest quad-core just because it has a faster clock speed, I want it because it brings a multitude of different improvements. The 805 will make our cameras faster, it improves the memory controller, it's more efficient, and it has the new Adreno 420 gpu.
<snipped>
From reading your post, it seems as though you do not believe that the latest Snapdragon will improve the performance of our devices.

And that's fine. I completely agree with that. That's not what you previously said though, where you implied that almost any measure of progress is attributable to core count. Maybe that wasn't what you meant, but that is how it sounded to me. That is what I was objecting to. I'm not against progress, and obviously newer chips will provide benefits. However, almost none of those benefits are a direct result of having four weaker cores rather than two more powerful cores.

As for Apple's new cpu's, yes I know they're extremely fast, but they were designed to perfectly match the needs of iOS..

No. That is the kind of BS I'd expect from Apple. The A8 was designed to match the needs of a low power, always-connected, entertainment and communications device. At the end of the day it's still an ARM CPU that would be just as well matched to WP. There is nothing about it that makes it a better fit for iOS than it would be for WP.

Android is not quite comparable to iOS and WP, as it allows apps to continually run in the background at essentially any time. That is closer to the tablet/desktop model, which is why Android can more easily benefit from an extra core or two, but it does so at the cost of deterministic battery life.

 

[Waylon Payne]

I don't want the latest quad-core just because it has a faster clock speed, I want it because it brings a multitude of different improvements. The 805 will make our cameras faster, it improves the memory controller, it's more efficient, and it has the new Adreno 420 gpu.

As for Apple's new cpu's, yes I know they're extremely fast, but they were designed to perfectly match the needs of iOS. The new A8x cpu in the iPad is now a triple-core, they squeezed everything they could out of their dual-core design and are adding more cores because it makes sense.

From reading your post, it seems as though you do not believe that the latest Snapdragon will improve the performance of our devices. That doesn't make sense to me, but that's okay. I think the 805 might just eliminate the resuming issue Windows Phone has, it might fix the slow camera, and it will definitely make playing games better. It really doesn't make any sense to not want that.

To be fair the 805 is a brand new processor and I'm sure it will turn up in newer phones.

There is no way that this CPU would've been in the 930, its too new.

I can't really say that I am having "resuming" issues on the 930 and if it really is something that bothers you, then even something like the 805 powered note 4 is gonna disappoint you (but at least you can brag about the numbers)...

Yeah maybe the camera isn't as fast as it should be but the denim preview that MS showed on the 930 looked plenty fast (but I'm sure that will also be too slow for you).

For me this whole cores\ ghz debate is a childish one, its like the AMD vs Intel era all over again.

 

[neo158]

To be fair the 805 is a brand new processor and I'm sure it will turn up in newer phones.

There is no way that this CPU would've been in the 930, its too new.

I can't really say that I am having "resuming" issues on the 930 and if it really is something that bothers you, then even something like the 805 powered note 4 is gonna disappoint you (but at least you can brag about the numbers)...

Yeah maybe the camera isn't as fast as it should be but the denim preview that MS showed on the 930 looked plenty fast (but I'm sure that will also be too slow for you).

For me this whole cores\ ghz debate is a childish one, its like the AMD vs Intel era all over again.

Agreed, but I'll just leave this here Wide range of benchmarks show HTC M8 for Windows the fastest, Snapdragon 400 as fast as Snapdragon S4