N-triq over Wacom kills the Pro 3 for me.

[Reflexx]

While I don't want to see the artists left in the cold, one of the major reasons I returned my Pro was because the stylus wasn't accurate, especially at the edges. I really like storing my notes digitally, and I have pretty small handwriting (the printout from Notepad has about the same sized text as the top sheet on the notebook sitting next to it on my desk, right now).

Using the original stylus during meetings was like writing with a warm crayon. The lack of precision (even after some of the hacks) forced me to use gigantic letters and I still wasn't confident whether I was crossing my "T" or underlining it. The display ratio just made it worse by letting me only get a handful of words on each line. I honestly can't imagine how anyone could draw with it without throwing it across the room. There must be something with the artist's eye that let's you look at the cursor, rather than the pen.

So, I guess my thoughts on the change are that I'm glad they're addressing the basic use case, even if it means they have to step back from the advanced case. Hopefully, the n-Trig isn't too bad. If there is a downgrade, it would be nice if they can address it with an updated pen and/or driver, but I don't know how these things work.

From what we've seen, the N-trig is far from bad. It just doesn't happen to satisfy the use case for a select few people. (myself included unfortunately)

As for artists being able to look at the dot as opposed to the pen... yeah. We're kind of used to it by now. Most of us still use drawing tablets where you don't even get the benefit of drawing on the screen. You're drawing on a tablet on your desk while looking at the screen.

 

[DalekSnare]

As I said in the other thread, I'm an artist and I actually think the new tech will work better, if it works like they say it will. I don't care how many levels of pressure the surface pro and pro 2 had, the pen hardly ever drew exactly on the right spot. And the edges were AWFUL. I'm looking forward to using the pro 3, hopefully it works as advertised.

I'm not an artist, but I take a lot of notes with a pen. I am cautiously optimistic about how well the new pen will work for things that don't require good pressure sensitivity levels. Wacom is great and still the best for artists, but it has some serious flaws for someone expecting it to be like writing on paper. There's the fact that the nibs and the cursor are not touching, with the cursor being hidden behind the nib, decreasing accuracy if you try something like draw a circle with the ends matching up, since you can't see the cursor behind the pen. That drove me nuts with my first pen tablet, but I've gotten mostly used to it. The edge accuracy thing is a worse issue; one reason we need the new touch-sized controls for Photoshop is because the Wacom stylus is almost impossible to use at the edge of the screen, and whenever I try to tap something I usually end up dragging a button off of the toolbar.

So if the new N-trig tech is good for non-artistic work, it will probably be a lot better for most users, at the expense of the digital artists unfortunately. Wacom's the best for art, but it kind of sucks at some basic functionality a new tablet pen user would expect to have. I returned my first Samsung slate, thinking it had a bum digitizer, before I realized Wacom was just bad at those things in general.

 

[Mercule]

I've heard that complaint (inaccurate near the edges) from various people. Wacom has a good reputation (probably well-deserved) but they're not perfect. It is clear that the Surface Pro 3 is designed for the general purpose professional. The pen was described and showcased with OneNote and compared to a yellow writing pad. What clouded the presentation, IMO, was having the Adobe guy briefly demonstration the Surfaced-optimized Photoshop... which perhaps led some to believe that the pen was optimized for graphics.

Yeah. It seems that some people were able to get the old stylus to work pretty well. Unfortunately, I wasn't one of them and didn't have the time (or interest) to go through additional effort.

Like I (hopefully) indicated, I'm not trying to tell the artists to stop their whining. I'm cautiously optimistic that the new pen will actually give me what I wanted from the Surface, from the beginning. If it does, it'll be well worth the money, to me.

Note: There were more issues than just the pen, for me. It looks like this release may hit the maturity level that'll suck me in, though.

 

[Dustin Hodges]

IMO, was having the Adobe guy briefly demonstration the Surfaced-optimized Photoshop... which perhaps led some to believe that the pen was optimized for graphics.

I think it was more than that. After the event, Microsoft made a post on their blog comparing Photoshop & the Surface Pro 3 to "Chocolate & Peanut Butter". They're trying to prove that the Pro 3 is just as good for art as it is with other tasks. And based on the lash out at the Pro 3 for using N-Trig as seen here, they're doing so with good reason: They've got alot to prove to the artist community.

 

[lumedelic]

Interested on thoughts on this comparison,

TickTakashi: Wacom vs N-Trig - A Modern Comparison

...in particular "N-Trig devices have 256 Levels of pressure, while Wacom devices can range from 512 all the way up to 2048. As far as numbers go, its is clear to see that in this regard Wacom devices are superior. However, it is important for us to understand what it means to have more levels of pressure. Having more than 256 levels of pressure only makes a difference if you are working with brush that is above size 256. In other words:

When drawing with a Brush size that is lower than 256, there is no difference in sensitivity between Wacom and N-Trig

This is an important concept for people to grasp, because most artists do not work with brush sizes above 256. Furthermore, the difference does not become easily perceptible for a little while after that."

 

[anon(5445874)]

Interested on thoughts on this comparison,

TickTakashi: Wacom vs N-Trig - A Modern Comparison

...in particular "N-Trig devices have 256 Levels of pressure, while Wacom devices can range from 512 all the way up to 2048. As far as numbers go, its is clear to see that in this regard Wacom devices are superior. However, it is important for us to understand what it means to have more levels of pressure. Having more than 256 levels of pressure only makes a difference if you are working with brush that is above size 256. In other words:

When drawing with a Brush size that is lower than 256, there is no difference in sensitivity between Wacom and N-Trig

This is an important concept for people to grasp, because most artists do not work with brush sizes above 256. Furthermore, the difference does not become easily perceptible for a little while after that."

I was actually thinking this earlier today. A brush would have to be huge before you need a thousand levels of pressure. Was going to post about it, but I forgot and BAM, here you come with this info.

 

[Reflexx]

Interested on thoughts on this comparison,

TickTakashi: Wacom vs N-Trig - A Modern Comparison

...in particular "N-Trig devices have 256 Levels of pressure, while Wacom devices can range from 512 all the way up to 2048. As far as numbers go, its is clear to see that in this regard Wacom devices are superior. However, it is important for us to understand what it means to have more levels of pressure. Having more than 256 levels of pressure only makes a difference if you are working with brush that is above size 256. In other words:

When drawing with a Brush size that is lower than 256, there is no difference in sensitivity between Wacom and N-Trig

This is an important concept for people to grasp, because most artists do not work with brush sizes above 256. Furthermore, the difference does not become easily perceptible for a little while after that."

Pressure isn't only about line thickness or density. There's also color value.

Of the N-trig is perfect is how it pulls off its sensitivity, I'll be happy. Many of us are skeptical, but are open to the possibility that it could be good.

I will say that the blog post you linked to was interesting. I do like what I hear about the improvements N-trig had made.

Was bummed about the current level of software support.

 

[andrantos]

Pressure isn't only about line thickness or density. There's also color value.

Of the N-trig is perfect is how it pulls off its sensitivity, I'll be happy. Many of us are skeptical, but are open to the possibility that it could be good.

I will say that the blog post you linked to was interesting. I do like what I hear about the improvements N-trig had made.

Was bummed about the current level of software support.

I think this is great mindset to have... an open, cautious mind. My belief has and will always be that the artist makes the tool... not the other way around. Granted, at some point, tool limitations do reach a point where they cannot be circumvented as our own creative work-arounds will push a tool to its maximum capability.

For me, my current hp touchsmart tablet (going on 4-5 years old and with wacom with 1024 levels of pressure) serves as a great starting/sketching/drawing/conceptual/illustration tool. However, this thing is heavy to tote around. The screen and its color representation awful. It's battery life (even with a brand new battery) lasts maybe 3 hrs on a charge. I can squeeze in 5 if I degrade its hardware capabilities to a point where drawing isn't even plausible due to awful performance.

Providing N-triq holds up well in my usual, then this will definitely be an upgrade. I actually had a gateway convertible back in 2007/2008 that was decked out with N-triq and I remember pressure sensitivity having a nice feel to it in all apps it supported. I can't imagine it getting worse with time. Inking in general wasn't bad on WinXP tablet edition.

It is funny, I've seen a lot of remarks across the interwebs along the lines that artists would like Wacom to have a true competitor due to any number of reasons, but at the same time, they cry horror at the thought of N-triq. Without more market share, N-triq or any digitizer competitor will have a hard time competing with Wacom. No "mainstream" application is going to expand their driver support outside of wintab if Wacom continues to be the go-to digitizer of choice for many hardware manufacturers. Likewise, N-triq can only do so much with whatever marketshare they have. I imagine as their consumer base grows - so will their offerings.

Simply, get enough products out there in the wild with positive buzz using something other than Wacom and wintab and I'm sure the likes of CAD and what not will take notice. Get enough N-triq users and N-triq will see market opportunities. Artists rally around Wacom and shy away from N-triq.... why would they go after that market that Wacom has such a strong foothold from a number of angles (software, hardware, mindshare, etc...)

I think it is fair criticism to point that the move to N-triq removes support for certain applications that played nicely with previous SP iterations (as consumers need to be educated in order to make the right purchase for him/her). Likewise, consumers should be willing to keep an open mind on unfamiliar offerings. While our initial perceptions and emotions and conjure up a variety of true/false assumptions - we honestly do not know how well N-triq suits the SP3 until we get our own hands on it (and current reports are very positive).

It makes sense that the stubborn artist in each of us will think, "No Wacom = No go!" I'm taking the gamble, and at its worst, I'll simply return the product. Who knows, maybe I'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

 

[unstoppablekem]

Am I the only one who likes the N-Trig pen more? :-/

 

[Great deal]

Im on 3rd pen from SP2 - just had an idea tho...how about a tiny hole on the SP3 and a tiny hole on the pen, perhaps use a bit of quality lightweight string to attach them for those that want to.

 

[anon(5445874)]

Am I the only one who likes the N-Trig pen more? :-/

Nope, maybe you have not seen my posts.

1 better accuracy
2 screen edges
3 pressure sensitivity is just fine unless your brush is massive. But most programs like Fresh Paint, you'll never ever see the difference.

So N-Trig wins.

 

[Reflexx]

Am I the only one who likes the N-Trig pen more? :-/

From what Penny Arcade is saying, it does sound better.

I hope Pixologic and Autodesk move to give it good support.

 

[Dustin Hodges]

SurfaceTeam comments on We are Panos Panay and the Surface team at Microsoft. We proudly introduced Surface Pro 3 last week. Ask us anything!

THIS is what I was trying to say. No different then an overspeced camera. Pressure sensitivity CAN effect hugh detailed artwork, but DOESNT guarantee it will. In the case of the Pro 3, everyone should be covered.

 

[mozman68]

I can't believe I read this entire thread....it needs to die.

I'll take a wild guess here...artists/graphic designers/etc. probably represent less than 2% of the sales.

The pen is designed to open OneNote easily and take notes first and foremost. The fact that they had (in some of your opinions) a "better" pen/technology on the older models is irrelevant.

 

[Reflexx]

SurfaceTeam comments on We are Panos Panay and the Surface team at Microsoft. We proudly introduced Surface Pro 3 last week. Ask us anything!

THIS is what I was trying to say. No different then an overspeced camera. Pressure sensitivity CAN effect hugh detailed artwork, but DOESNT guarantee it will. In the case of the Pro 3, everyone should be covered.

I think everyone knew what you were trying to say. But that doesn't mean that it was done well here.

Artists wanted opinions from other artists about if it was done right. They weren't just going to believe marketing.

 

[Reflexx]

I can't believe I read this entire thread....it needs to die.

I'll take a wild guess here...artists/graphic designers/etc. probably represent less than 2% of the sales.

The pen is designed to open OneNote easily and take notes first and foremost. The fact that they had (in some of your opinions) a "better" pen/technology on the older models is irrelevant.

While I'm coming around to N-trig because of what Gabe from Penny Arcade said, I would still like to address your comment.

If we take the logic of your comment further, then MS really shouldn't care about Windows Phone, right? It's irrelevant.

 

[mozman68]

While I'm coming around to N-trig because of what Gabe from Penny Arcade said, I would still like to address your comment.

If we take the logic of your comment further, then MS really shouldn't care about Windows Phone, right? It's irrelevant.

Your comparing the mobile phone as a product category to the types of users that may utilize it?

Desktop PC Sales last year were just over 134 million units and forecasted to only be 123 million in four years.

Smart phone market shipped over 1 billion phones last year and is forecasted to be over 1.7 billion in four years.

While Nokia is number 2 mobile phone provider in the world, they aren't even in the top 5 of smartphone suppliers...and considering Windows Phone, while a distandt third, still has 4% of the OS share and is expected to grow twice as fast as both Android and Apple over the next four years.

Investing in a growing market versus designing a piece of hardware to an extreme minority are NOT the same thing.

Global mobile statistics 2014 Part A: Mobile subscribers; handset market share; mobile operators | mobiThinking

 

[Eliezer Suliveras]

I would just like you to actually experience the tablet before posting.Go to the Microsoft Store and use it.There is no human being that can pressure a pen 256 levels.The weight you speak of is not relevant if you can draw you can do it with pen, pencil, marker,charcoal etc.Just go use it then post.

 

[Narr]

It would appear as this topic hits facts, due to people using the device, rather than opinion (or ranting) of people who don't have a prelease Surface Pro3 the topic itself is becoming less relevant and the N-Trig pen would appear to hold its own against the Wacom pen.

 

[anon(5445874)]

It would appear as this topic hits facts, due to people using the device, rather than opinion (or ranting) of people who don't have a prelease Surface Pro3 the topic itself is becoming less relevant and the N-Trig pen would appear to hold its own against the Wacom pen.

Yeah, the debate is over. N-Trig wins.