no apollo no problem

[AzD]

Windows 8 could bring something entirely different, whilst current devices could be bundled with the low-end Tango family - which would mean they would still receive updates.

Could be but the fragmentation and confusion would be a serious negative effect from such a situation.

 

[socialcarpet]

Windows 8 could bring something entirely different, whilst current devices could be bundled with the low-end Tango family - which would mean they would still receive updates.

Agreed. This would be the most sensible thing for Microsoft to do if making Apollo retro compatible with all the current phones isn't practical.

 

[socialcarpet]

Could be but the fragmentation and confusion would be a serious negative effect from such a situation.

A two tiered Windows Phone OS situation wouldn't be ideal, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as fragmented as Android with 4+ versions of the OS out there actually SHIPPING on NEW devices simultaneously, plus all of the OEM and carrier bloatware and customizations keeping people from getting even incremental OS updates.

A lower tier of phones all on Tango and a new class of phones all on Apollo doesn't even come close to the cluster*ck that is Android. Both could easily be maintained simultaneously for a while. You could have most apps work on both, but you might have special functions only enabled on Apollo devices, or you may have newer apps or high end games that are Apollo only.

Again, it might not be the ideal scenario that's going to make everyone happy, but it would certainly be something that I think no reasonable person would decry if they really understood why certain compromises might have to be made.

 

[N8ter]

This supports my belief that WP7 phones won't be updated to WP8...

No it doesn't. The chasis requirements for WP8 are the same as WP7 except they are adding more chasis with Tango and Apollo for different form-factors.

Again, this seems to support my position more than it does yours. All WP7 phones have specs worse than current Android, iPhones, and the minimum Win8 requirements. It seems plausible that they won't be able to run WP8 at any decent performance level.

That depends on the system requirments for Apollo, which none of us know so how can that support your or my argument. We don't know what the minimum requirements are. Speculation is not fact.

It is a big deal if the companies that wrote the original drivers aren't interested in investing the time in developing new drivers. See Vista's history for an example of how well this works.

And it's only a big deal if the driver model for WP8 is radically changed going from WP7. OEMs have contracts with component vendors and you're assumiong literally all the hardware is getting switched out, and that the same OEMs won't be using teh same components in lower end devices to keep their manufacturing and POS cost down. I'd say you're dead wrong. Driver support won't be an issue.

It's not as big of a change from the user's perspective, but it is a huge change from the OS's perspective. Replace that antiquated kernel with Win 8 and you have to rewrite everything above it all the way to the silverlight layer. Doing that and writing new device drivers for legacy hardware and testing and debugging all of this so the legacy devices don't experience radio, battery, reliability, and performance issues is *not* a small task. And it's not like Microsoft doesn't have a ton of other things on their plate, like WP8 server, or WP8 on ARM, or WP8 on the desktop, the new Office for ARM, or even the new XBox - lest we forget, Dave Cutler (father of NT) went to the XBox division last year. And if WP8 is supposed to run WinRT apps then you've also got to shoehorn the WinRT software stack in next to the Silverlight stack, all in that same 512k space where you're also shoehorning in the new kernel and all the new features that WP8 is supposedly bringing to the table.

See above. Only thing that matters is the driver model and the system requirmenents. And it's 512MB space not 512k space. WP8 will fit in that easily and I wouldn't be suprised if the WP8 phones end up shipping with 512 MB ROMs as well. Skinned Android is pretty big and it fits in 512MB ROM. WP7 should easily fit in there.

I don't know that all this isn't doable. But Microsoft's resounding silence on this issue (and their quickness to yank that Spanish evangelist guy's leash) tells me they do *not* want people getting the idea that current handsets will be upgraded. Yet they're perfectly willing - eager even - to talk about the fact that current WP7 apps will run on WP8.

They aren't obligated to tell anyone anything, but I thought they said they would be?

People need to be harping on Manufacturers, not Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't make them put 512 MB ROMs in the devices, they choose that, and it's just a minimum requirement. The HD2 for T-Mo had a 1GB ROM, for example. HD2/7 for T-Mo have 576 MB RAM (the 512 you think you have is actually less cause of partitioned RAM for the GPU, so HTC adds extra in some of their phones to offset that a bit). There are a lot of issues that affect upgradeability of handsets that have nothing to do with Microsoft's decisions (other than setting the minimum requirements) and everything to do with the OEMs and Carriers efforts to minimize costs and maximize profits (duh...).

 

[N8ter]

He said "a more feature-filled now aesthetically pleasing OS on it". I think what he was trying to say is ICS is more feature-filled than Mango (don't know that any of us would seriously disagree) and that ICS is aesthetically pleasing, which is of course only an opinion but it is a fairly widely-held opinion. I personally think Mango is more attractive, but there's no doubt that ICS is much more attractive and pleasant to use than Froyo or Gingerbread, and Apple and Microsoft should be concerned about Jellybean.

Eric loves to twist words. His reading comprehension is terrible.

 

[N8ter]

you're forgetting one thing, when the iPhone 4S launched even the iPhone 4 users ponied up the cash for one,that's bound to be more expensive than a WP off contract would be, so this logic is failed. Also android ICS more aesthetically pleasing than WP? Don't know where you get this from either.

There was a bit more value in going from an iPhone 4 to a 4S, though. For one, the camera on that phone blows away pretty much anything else on the market, and it has the best GPU for smartphone gaming. The CDMA version is a world phone. The GSM version has HSPA+ and the dual antenna design leads to better reception. i4 users on ATT/Ver who wanted a cheaper carrier would upgrade and move to Sprint. Of course we all know of certain software features that are locked to the 4S. et cetera

The gains going from a Launch to a Mango handset weren't as good or even approaching as good as going from a 4 to a 4S. There was more than enough reason to pony up for that refresh.

 

[eric12341]

There was a bit more value in going from an iPhone 4 to a 4S, though. For one, the camera on that phone blows away pretty much anything else on the market, and it has the best GPU for smartphone gaming. The CDMA version is a world phone. The GSM version has HSPA+ and the dual antenna design leads to better reception. i4 users on ATT/Ver who wanted a cheaper carrier would upgrade and move to Sprint. Of course we all know of certain software features that are locked to the 4S. et cetera

The gains going from a Launch to a Mango handset weren't as good or even approaching as good as going from a 4 to a 4S. There was more than enough reason to pony up for that refresh.

Jah, what value? It added nothing new besides siri. There wasn't that big of a difference whatsoever between the 4 and 4S. The camera in the titan 2 currently beats it.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

Just read a blog entry in Paul Thurrot's Windows Supersite that there will be *no* update to WP8 for all current devices.

The hardware factors that you guys were discussing is one reason, but Thurrot also says that both the carriers and OEM manufacturers have no desire to push out such an update either.

He mentions his discussions with Microsoft people were anonymous and off the record (because, really, nobody wants to get fired), but Thurrott's sources in Microsoft are always solid. I wouldn't be shocked if his source is Belfiore himself.

Microsoft will only be shooting themselves in the foot; but they're going to be shooting Nokia in the head. That company is already on very shaky financial ground.

As nice as WP7 is, I can't see going forward how anybody, even on WP8, can trust Microsoft in mobile ever again. Two major breaks within two years is a bit much.

 

[dtboos]

Paul T is just speculating as well. People seriously need to relax. If you truly think MS will completely abandon the new Lumia 900 flagship only 6 months after release you need to step back a bit. Even if you dont get the "ENTIRE OVERHAUL" of the OS, you will still at the very least get the updates & features added that your hardware supports.

Wait until E3 before you start jumping off bridges.

 

[mparker]

And it's only a big deal if the driver model for WP8 is radically changed going from WP7. .... OEMs won't be using teh same components in lower end devices to keep their manufacturing and POS cost down

We know what the driver model is for WinCE, and we know what the driver model is for Win8. They're radically different.

These are SoC's - you change the CPU and you change everything else around them. Yes the 2g radios probably haven't changed much in the last year or so, but the 3G radios have, and there are huge changes in the LTE side with the new SoC's having integrated LTE modems whereas the current generation of LTE devices all have separate LTE modems. And even seemingly basic stuff like the screen digitizers are being upgraded rapidly. Meanwhile Nokia has already announced that they're switching SoC families completely, and going to the Ericsson NovaThor system. The new Windows-on-ARM system will allow the manufacturers much more flexibility as to which SoC they choose for their phones, it's quite possible that *none* of the WP8 phones will be based on Snapdragons. You really think those Nokia NovaThor drivers will work on the current Snapdragon SoCs??? There are enough changes in the hardware from the current devices (which are 2yr old tech) to the WP8 devices (which will be shiny new tech) and major changes in the driver architecture that you can't simply wave your hands and say the hardware and drivers will be the same, even within the same SoC provider. It may be doable to port WP8 down to the current devices, but also very likely to be difficult and time-consuming, and it remains to be seen if the manufacturers and microsoft think this is a good use of their limited time and development resources.

Just read a blog entry in Paul Thurrot's Windows Supersite that there will be *no* update to WP8 for all current devices.

The hardware factors that you guys were discussing is one reason, but Thurrot also says that both the carriers and OEM manufacturers have no desire to push out such an update either.

He's speculating, but it's pretty reasonable speculation. Microsoft seems very determined not to let this idea get around that WP7 devices will be upgradable to WP8. The manufacturer and carrier issue has been discussed around here before; once it became a non-trivial thing to do the upgrade then it became increasingly unlikely, since the OEMs and carriers bear the cost and risk but get nothing in return.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

Paul T is just speculating as well. People seriously need to relax. If you truly think MS will completely abandon the new Lumia 900 flagship only 6 months after release you need to step back a bit. Even if you dont get the "ENTIRE OVERHAUL" of the OS, you will still at the very least get the updates & features added that your hardware supports.

Wait until E3 before you start jumping off bridges.

I don't think anybody expects that they'll get the 'whole overhaul' WP8 OS. Bugfixes and feature-adds are fine enough.

(And it does have bugs: hello, pink-camera-blotch?)

For me, the big elephant in the room is: sure, we know that WP7 applications are compatible, and will work on WP8.

But will WP8 applications work on WP7? I'm guessing, but likely not, correct? A developer would have to create two entirely different applications, one for WP8 and one that works on WP7 devices based on CE?

Isn't that basically the mess that happened to Symbian? You had the new Symbian 3 versions, and before that Symbian S60, which continued to get updates and bugfixes from Nokia, but which saw application development stop. Cold.

And even Symbian's low end S60 OS had a *much* larger install base than that comprised of WP7 owners.

So the worry is, WP7 continues to work fine, but new applications, or updates to current ones, slow to a trickle or just completely stop.

 

[mparker]

So the worry is, WP7 continues to work fine, but new applications, or updates to current ones, slow to a trickle or just completely stop.

Maybe, maybe not. If WP7 continues for the budget phones then there will likely continue to be a huge flow of apps, they'll just be for the African, Chinese, and Indian markets.

 

[Big Supes]

Could be but the fragmentation and confusion would be a serious negative effect from such a situation.

Why though? It's not like it would end up in the same mess Android is in. I think about Windows on PC's. What if certain demographics prefer Windows Phone 7.5/Tango over WP8? I don't think it would be harmful at all to have a 'clear' choice out there.

 

[Major]

Even if my Titan gets Apollo, I'm still buying a dual core, high resolution, Apollo packing Nokia at launch. Most people here will, too. So, honestly, it doesn't matter to me at all if Apollo never sees the light of day on my current device.

 

[sentimentGX4]

Same here. And should WP8 not be backward compatible, I will need written assurances that WP9 (and10) will be backward compatible to WP8 before I consider a purchase.

Don't worry about it. There'll probably be a Windows 8.5 like there is a Windows 7.5 so your Windows 8 device will still be good two years before Windows 9 comes along.

 

[AzD]

Why though? It's not like it would end up in the same mess Android is in. I think about Windows on PC's. What if certain demographics prefer Windows Phone 7.5/Tango over WP8? I don't think it would be harmful at all to have a 'clear' choice out there.

Why do you think it wouldn't be just like the "mess" Android is. in? Its a fragmentation of the platform just like Android. These aren't PCs they are phones that run apps. Apps that developers create. Developers that want a return on investment.

 

[invertme]

iPhone 3GS got iOS 5

and runs like crap.

No I hope Microsoft doesn't make that mistake.

 

[invertme]

Just read a blog entry in Paul Thurrot's Windows Supersite that there will be *no* update to WP8 for all current devices.

The hardware factors that you guys were discussing is one reason, but Thurrot also says that both the carriers and OEM manufacturers have no desire to push out such an update either.

He mentions his discussions with Microsoft people were anonymous and off the record (because, really, nobody wants to get fired), but Thurrott's sources in Microsoft are always solid. I wouldn't be shocked if his source is Belfiore himself.

Microsoft will only be shooting themselves in the foot; but they're going to be shooting Nokia in the head. That company is already on very shaky financial ground.

As nice as WP7 is, I can't see going forward how anybody, even on WP8, can trust Microsoft in mobile ever again. Two major breaks within two years is a bit much.

You make comments like this but you really have no clue what's going to happen. Why don't you (and so many others) just relax and enjoy today - worry about tomorrow later.

Oh and Paul is wrong soooo much. I don't believe anything he says until after it happens.

 

[AiR DEGETA]

Mango is great and though some older phones may not see Apollo (at least maybe not in it's full glory), I highly doubt MS will not give us new features in future updates. Everything is mere speculation at the moment and this speculation is getting far too much attention.

I Agree I think the olders would get some kind of update but most likely not a full fledge Apollo update. Probably something like "Apollo Lite" cause I doubt you need Multi-core processors for EVERY SINGLE FEATURE in Apollo.