If Apple is under Steve, it will never give in. But now seems the circumstance has changed under Tim Cook, from the release of iPad Mini which Steve would never do when he was alive.
The impact of China Mobile in the platform war
- Thread starter ynight
- Start date
a5cent
New member
I see, so it sounds LTE coverage will be like how it is now in the US, limited coverage in the major cities only. I know Nokia won't have any issues building out phones that support TD-LTE, since they are the ones building out the networks. Looks like 3 cities should have TD-LTE by the end of this year, have you guys heard anything about that at all? (Not sure if you guys are US-based or China-based. Based on the time stamps, I'm guessing US)
Nokia Siemens Networks Gets China Mobile TD-LTE Deal
This one says 13 cities by the end of the year (not just NSN, reportedly other companies are in the mix too). NSN wins China Mobile deal for TD-LTE roll-out This was reported back in October, will the projects be complete in time? Only a couple weeks left!
Pretty much what I expected regarding the L920 vs iPhone, thanks.
I posted some links above in my response to joshingyou regarding LTE roll-out. Do you know if those projects are still on schedule? Do you know if they involve the whole cities, or just certain areas?
I have heard that Nokia's supply issues might be related to a shortage from Qualcomm. Some of speculated that by changing the chipset used in the L920Ts, they will be able to avoid the supply shortages. Also, Nokia has two production facilities in China. One in Beijing, and one in Dongguan, so I don't think the supply chain is going to be an issue in Asia.
Do you have a source for the several thousand sold in Hong Kong? Does several mean 5,000 or more like 9,000? Was that several thousand in Hong Kong, and several thousand in Taiwan? Or several thousand including both HK and Taiwan?
Either way, it sounds like supply is much better in China. Other stores in Europe have reported selling out, but only 2,000 - 3,000 units. I'm hoping for the best.
a5cent
New member
Unfortunately, no. Qualcomm's supply issue would trace back to TSMC and their inability to keep up with demand for 28nm parts. TSMC manufactures all of Qualcomm's WP8 chipsets. If a WP8 chipset shortage exists, it will apply to any and all WP8 manufacturers and all devices, including the 920T.
this is a bit comfusing for you guys to get into i guess. this is the online store of nokia in china now and it sells this phone more expensive than others(For instance 920 is 4099 in my hometown's china mobile store with charging pad included). It's not online exclusively at all in fact. Lumia 920 is also available in mutiple other online retailers and also the local stores from both retailers and carriers. That's why it only says 640 sold. ??ŵ????920T??ŵ???ǣ?NOKIA??Lumia 920T 3G?ֻ?????ɫ??TD-SCDMA/GSM ?????? ???? ?۸? ???⡿ it looks like their first shipment has sold out here. And it looks like they expect second shipment would not fufill the orders so people may need to wait till january.
Yea I noticed that some of the bigger online retailers selling 920t indicating their second shipment due 12.25 would likely not fufill the orders and the third shipment would only come sometime 01.2013. I thought some reports said nokia is believed to solve the shortage issue this week, guess that's not true.
a5cent
New member
A supply problem exists. I don't know where the problem lies. If it is with Qualcomm/TSMC, then it is highly unlikely things will improve soon. Samsung transitioning to the S4 is probably Nokia's best hope, as Samsung will produce all S4 chipsets themselves.
if that hindering Nokia's shipment for too long that might just kill them as well. Unlike apple where supplier issue caused lower sales number is a non issue, for Nokia if the first quarter numbers ain't good, no matter what the reason is, that might be it for them.
Note iPhone 5 goes officially on sale today in china and the reaction is quite disappointing. Hopefully Nokia can grab some iphone's business there as well..
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
a5cent
New member
Nokia's situation isn't that dramatic anymore. At their current cash burn rate they could continue on for another two years at least (although that certainly wouldn't be good). Nokia's main difficulties isn't with their financials, but consumer awareness. Nokia has good products, but people don't understand the benefits of a WP device like they do with Android or iPhone.
a5cent,
Yes, it's been known for quite some time that TSMC was going to have trouble supplying enough chips. I was assuming that the supply problem was due in part to multiple manufacturers utilizing the exact same chipset for their phones. IOW, if Qualcomm had ordered 50 million of chip A and 50 million of chip B, but chip A is being used by 4 manufacturers, compared to chip B only being used by 2, the supply available for phones using chip B is double that of phones using chip A. This is just a guess, no real homework has been done on my end.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, I believe these manufacturing issues may open the door for Intel to get into the mobile sector. Intel has manufacturing capabilities far beyond any other company ATM.
Yes, it's been known for quite some time that TSMC was going to have trouble supplying enough chips. I was assuming that the supply problem was due in part to multiple manufacturers utilizing the exact same chipset for their phones. IOW, if Qualcomm had ordered 50 million of chip A and 50 million of chip B, but chip A is being used by 4 manufacturers, compared to chip B only being used by 2, the supply available for phones using chip B is double that of phones using chip A. This is just a guess, no real homework has been done on my end.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, I believe these manufacturing issues may open the door for Intel to get into the mobile sector. Intel has manufacturing capabilities far beyond any other company ATM.
a5cent
New member
Agree. I've thought about this as well. I would LOVE to see Microsoft pick an Intel 14nm mobile SoC as the next chassis spec for WP. The timelines for WP9 and Intel delivering the 14nm process line up nicely as well. Few are thinking about this now... I'm just waiting for more Info from Intel before I hedge my bets, which would likely include shorting ARM ;-)
yxw4774
New member
It is such pleasure to find such a great thread in WPCentarl to talk about China's telecom market. TD-SCDMA is the home-develpoed network for China. China Mobile showed her responsibiltiy to develop and commercialize this network in China. However, what we should keep in mind is that most consumers in China even do not know that, they do not care about the surfing speed. They cannot tell the difference between EDGR and TD-LTE. Also they have been stuck in their telephone number since Chinese consumers cannot transfer their number at their will among carriers as most Americans do. Thus, even though I am interested in the Lumia 920T, I am still doutful for its sale in China Mobile. The other reason for my doubt is that China Mobile has not invested a lot in their employees training. When I got into a China Mobile store in China and asked about Lumia 920T, one saleswoman told me;"which brand is that?" Nokia is gradually losing its reputation and popularity now in China, which we cannot ignore.
So, Windows Phone 8 can save Nokia from bankrupty, but cannot push Nokia back where they were in Symbian era.
So, Windows Phone 8 can save Nokia from bankrupty, but cannot push Nokia back where they were in Symbian era.
tebugg
New member
since lumia 920T has a better radio than iphone 5 and can be used on more carriers, wouldnt that give it an edge when worrying about your number? couldnt you just get a lumia 920T and put your number on that since it's unlocked? also the same thing has happened in the u.s. when it comes to stores knowing about the lumia 920. many ppl have already said on this site, that they went in to at&t to ask about the 920 and the store reps had no info about it. that was at the time of launch, now reps know alot about it. could be the same thing happening in china.
apple stock has dropped 3% today due to the horrible showing at retail stores for the iphone 5. apple stock down to close to $500 now.
Last edited:
a5cent
New member
yxw4774, agree. That is pretty much the same as everywhere else in the world. I would have been surprised if it were otherwise. People just aren't expecting Nokia to deliver a modern smartphone. In the U.S. that expectation is changing... very slowly but surly. If the same can be achieved in China (albeit faster), WP has a good chance of claiming a decent bit of market share, particularly because smartphones aren't YET as common as in the west... that gives WP a more level playing field to start from.
China is WP's most important market, and Nokia's as well. It might also be HTC's, but as far as I can tell it won't be... not because their devices are less worthy, but for political reasons.
It's a shame it is so hard for us westerners to get good insights into what is going on over there. This thread has been very helpful. Much more wouldn't hurt. ;-)
China is WP's most important market, and Nokia's as well. It might also be HTC's, but as far as I can tell it won't be... not because their devices are less worthy, but for political reasons.
It's a shame it is so hard for us westerners to get good insights into what is going on over there. This thread has been very helpful. Much more wouldn't hurt. ;-)
That might not be the case even I so hope as well. Nokia has been worthing more sold apart then as a whole alive operating for quite a while before the stock price hit back recently.( the break point is around 2.6 last time I checked). what that means is that if the stock price plumet again into that range, there's a chance shareholders will force a sell off of nokia's assets. This is particularly true now than before since a significant amount of recent buys are from funds and orgnizational investors which are in general more powerful than us regualr investors and they will most likely force that into happenning if WP not gonna save nokia soon enough. That's why it is widely believed the new lumia line is nokia's last strike to come back. Fingers crossed.
At this point the discussion is probably more appropriate for the Nokia Stock thread, but I think more value could be realized through splitting up Nokia into separate, smaller companies, rather than selling the whole company outright. Navteq and NSN could be worth maintaining as operating companies. Also, the fact that NSN is 50% owned by Siemens may or may not complicate things, depending on who is interested in buying NSN's assets.
I think it would take a massive failure of the Lumia line for shareholders to even consider forcing a sell off. Even if sales do not blow away expectations, as long as Nokia becomes operationally profitable as a whole, I am not worried.
tebugg
New member
good article about the over exxageration of nokia's stock troubles..............
Is Nokia the Best Income Opportunity in the Tech Industry?
By Tim Brugger, The Motley Fool Posted 9:00PM 12/14/12 Posted under: Investing
010010
It's been a nice ride for long-suffering Nokia shareholders. With its stock price up nearly 40% the past month alone, investors are beginning to take notice of what Nokia has to offer. For a lot of us, the good tidings heading Nokia's way are long overdue. But then, not everyone was (or is) on board with CEO Stephen Elop's vision - to transform Nokia into a significant force in the smartphone industry.
The announcement that Nokia was partnering with Microsoft to run its new mobile operating system in a new line of smartphones seems like ancient history now. Of course, it's only been a year since Elop began implementing Nokia's strategic shift and, as the last couple of months have shown, the new direction is starting to pay dividends -- literally, and figuratively.
Playing with the big boys
Though Apple fans will never admit it, the iPhone is under siege, and not just from Nokia. Apple's best new friend, Google , is happy to combine forces to supply Apple smartphone users with its maps app, and jointly bid $500 million for Kodak's extensive patent portfolio. That's just good business. But, even as the two industry behemoths walk arm in arm, Google is not so quietly selling a million Nexus 4 smartphone units a month, the result of its partnership with LG.
And let's not forget the world leader in smartphone sales, Samsung. With over 55 million smartphone units sold in Q3 of this year, Samsung trounced Apple's paltry 23 .6 million. Of course, that was pre-iPhone 5, so those figures are sure to change in Q4, but you get the idea -- competition is heating up. Don't forget to include Research In Motion , which, like Nokia, saw phone sales dip last quarter, too. But, as RIM shareholders will tell you, just wait until the new and improved BB10 phones and OS are unveiled Jan . 30. RIM investors aren't waiting until next month though, evidenced by its 60% jump in stock price the past month.
Yeah, but what about Nokia? As expected, Nokia's smartphone sales dipped in Q3, according to Gartner Research. Like Apple fans biding their time for the release of iPhone 5, Nokia customers were not-so-patiently waiting for its Windows 8 Lumia lineup in Q3. The wait's over and, if the sales results at both Amazon.com and telecom partner AT&T are any indication, Lumia's doing just fine, thank you very much.
Often lost in the mobile phone discussions, because so much emphasis is put on do-it-all smartphones, is the fact that Nokia dominates in several international markets, generating significant sales of its entry-level touch phones, like the Asha line, and the new Lumia 620. Nokia's 82.3 million phones sold in Q3 was second only to Samsung's 98 million - and that ain't bad. Plus, the recent deal with China Mobile to supply its 700 million customers with Nokia's first TD-SCDMA compliant Windows Phone in the country won't hurt.
Okay, but Nokia, an income investment?
Nokia naysayers are quick to point out that its dividend, which currently stands at a whopping 6.6% yield, is at risk, and has been for some time. The problem, they say, is that Nokia's bleeding cash in every quarter as it ramps up Lumia smartphone sales, putting its industry-leading dividend yield on the chopping block. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nokia's Q3 ready cash is down from the prior quarter, true; but with over $12 billion still in reserve, the death of Nokia's dividend has been greatly exaggerated.
On the growth side of the Nokia opportunity, there's still its 10,000 patents, estimated to be worth a cool $6 billion, and currently generating $650 million a year in revenue. And Nokia's patent revenue is likely to go up, thanks to the recent lawsuit claiming that RIM infringed on its WLAN (WiFi) technologies. Add in a profitable Siemens division (now a bit leaner after the sale of the fiber optics unit), world class mobile maps, and the fact that the company is netting $222 million with the recent sale/leaseback of its Finland headquarters, and Elop is quickly transforming Nokia into a lean, smartphone-making machine.
As many a Fool has commented in prior articles, the sum of Nokia's parts is greater than the whole -- the whole, in this instance, being its current share price. Now, throw in a 6.6% dividend yield on top of what remains an outstanding growth opportunity. That's the recipe for one of the best growth and income additions you can make to your portfolio -- and heading into 2013, that's exactly what Nokia is.
Nokia's banked its future on its next generation of Windows smartphones; CEO Stephen Elop has made that clear. For even more insight into the opportunity Nokia represents, take a look at Motley Fool analyst Charly Travers' new premium report that digs into both the opportunities and risks facing Nokia, to help investors decide if the company is a buy or a sell. To get started, simply click here now.
Is Nokia the Best Income Opportunity in the Tech Industry?
By Tim Brugger, The Motley Fool Posted 9:00PM 12/14/12 Posted under: Investing
010010
It's been a nice ride for long-suffering Nokia shareholders. With its stock price up nearly 40% the past month alone, investors are beginning to take notice of what Nokia has to offer. For a lot of us, the good tidings heading Nokia's way are long overdue. But then, not everyone was (or is) on board with CEO Stephen Elop's vision - to transform Nokia into a significant force in the smartphone industry.
The announcement that Nokia was partnering with Microsoft to run its new mobile operating system in a new line of smartphones seems like ancient history now. Of course, it's only been a year since Elop began implementing Nokia's strategic shift and, as the last couple of months have shown, the new direction is starting to pay dividends -- literally, and figuratively.
Playing with the big boys
Though Apple fans will never admit it, the iPhone is under siege, and not just from Nokia. Apple's best new friend, Google , is happy to combine forces to supply Apple smartphone users with its maps app, and jointly bid $500 million for Kodak's extensive patent portfolio. That's just good business. But, even as the two industry behemoths walk arm in arm, Google is not so quietly selling a million Nexus 4 smartphone units a month, the result of its partnership with LG.
And let's not forget the world leader in smartphone sales, Samsung. With over 55 million smartphone units sold in Q3 of this year, Samsung trounced Apple's paltry 23 .6 million. Of course, that was pre-iPhone 5, so those figures are sure to change in Q4, but you get the idea -- competition is heating up. Don't forget to include Research In Motion , which, like Nokia, saw phone sales dip last quarter, too. But, as RIM shareholders will tell you, just wait until the new and improved BB10 phones and OS are unveiled Jan . 30. RIM investors aren't waiting until next month though, evidenced by its 60% jump in stock price the past month.
Yeah, but what about Nokia? As expected, Nokia's smartphone sales dipped in Q3, according to Gartner Research. Like Apple fans biding their time for the release of iPhone 5, Nokia customers were not-so-patiently waiting for its Windows 8 Lumia lineup in Q3. The wait's over and, if the sales results at both Amazon.com and telecom partner AT&T are any indication, Lumia's doing just fine, thank you very much.
Often lost in the mobile phone discussions, because so much emphasis is put on do-it-all smartphones, is the fact that Nokia dominates in several international markets, generating significant sales of its entry-level touch phones, like the Asha line, and the new Lumia 620. Nokia's 82.3 million phones sold in Q3 was second only to Samsung's 98 million - and that ain't bad. Plus, the recent deal with China Mobile to supply its 700 million customers with Nokia's first TD-SCDMA compliant Windows Phone in the country won't hurt.
Okay, but Nokia, an income investment?
Nokia naysayers are quick to point out that its dividend, which currently stands at a whopping 6.6% yield, is at risk, and has been for some time. The problem, they say, is that Nokia's bleeding cash in every quarter as it ramps up Lumia smartphone sales, putting its industry-leading dividend yield on the chopping block. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nokia's Q3 ready cash is down from the prior quarter, true; but with over $12 billion still in reserve, the death of Nokia's dividend has been greatly exaggerated.
On the growth side of the Nokia opportunity, there's still its 10,000 patents, estimated to be worth a cool $6 billion, and currently generating $650 million a year in revenue. And Nokia's patent revenue is likely to go up, thanks to the recent lawsuit claiming that RIM infringed on its WLAN (WiFi) technologies. Add in a profitable Siemens division (now a bit leaner after the sale of the fiber optics unit), world class mobile maps, and the fact that the company is netting $222 million with the recent sale/leaseback of its Finland headquarters, and Elop is quickly transforming Nokia into a lean, smartphone-making machine.
As many a Fool has commented in prior articles, the sum of Nokia's parts is greater than the whole -- the whole, in this instance, being its current share price. Now, throw in a 6.6% dividend yield on top of what remains an outstanding growth opportunity. That's the recipe for one of the best growth and income additions you can make to your portfolio -- and heading into 2013, that's exactly what Nokia is.
Nokia's banked its future on its next generation of Windows smartphones; CEO Stephen Elop has made that clear. For even more insight into the opportunity Nokia represents, take a look at Motley Fool analyst Charly Travers' new premium report that digs into both the opportunities and risks facing Nokia, to help investors decide if the company is a buy or a sell. To get started, simply click here now.
So we've discussed how the Chinese mobile market doesn't subsidize much. Apparently, China Mobile is offering subsidies on the Lumia 920T.
Nokia Lumia 920T generously subsidized by China Mobile ? Unwired View
What do you guys think? Is this a shift in the Chinese market? Or is this development specific to Nokia?
Nokia Lumia 920T generously subsidized by China Mobile ? Unwired View
What do you guys think? Is this a shift in the Chinese market? Or is this development specific to Nokia?
that's clearly a big win for nokia, not much as of the chinese market is shifting(those plans are also available for other phones, we just dont know if the 920 belongs to that pool), but it indeed spells the effort china mobile will be making to push this phone to the market. Also i'm not quite so sure about the last column in the spreadsheet, it says(high end users within corporation) without explain "corporation", but my inital guess is it may be only available to the so called "big customers" i mentioned before, at least to start off. If my guess holds true, that might be a even better situation as china mobile will push 920 to those big customers really hard and we Chinese people just love to be exclusive.. Plus Nokia has the supply issue anyways...
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