We have two platforms: Lumia and Windows Phone

[SnailUK]

Their last results do not support that idea, the amounts they are having to spend are not in line with level of sales. Nokia will go under if it has to keep burning cash at the current rate in order to make an impact.

WP7 was going really well for Nokia, and sales stats improving all the time, until Microsoft went and ^&*(^& them over by announcing that WP7 devices wouldn't be updated to WP8. I'm actually supprised they are still selling at all.

The latest results obviously reflect this.

 

[SnailUK]

I 100% agree and I've been saying this here in the forums....but you have to know the Lumia fanboys will disagree totally. One has to open the eyes to say this coming, and I know it's coming until something is done about it.

Why does someone have to be a Nokia ****** to disagree with you?

Exclusive apps may annoy people, but the non-Nokia ones are timed exclusives, and surely its better that you get them late, than you don't get them at all? Is it Nokia's fault HTC, Samsung, etc put no effort into the platform?

Same with carrier network exclusivity. Its great putting a phone on every network, but if the networks don't bother promoting the phones, they won't sell. At least putting a phone exclusively on a network guarantees the network will try and sell it. It may or may not be the right idea, depends on how hard Nokia and the carriers promote it.

 

[Heron_Kusanagi]

As a Lumia and Nokia ******, I do not fully agree with Nokia's methods of exclusivity in apps and carriers. As Elop did mention, they have a fight with the ecosystem, and Nokia growing the WP ecosystem is the main priority. I see where they are coming from though, as if the apps are with Nokia, people will likely choose Nokia over the rest of the OEMs. Also, carrier exclusivity means a more likely chance of being pushed hard as the next hero device.

I will note this: Lumia devices with 600k shipped is not a bad number for a company that had virtually no presence in the US. Sure, we will love to have iPhone figures, but realistically speaking, L900 had every chance on building on its slow-rolling momentum if it was upgradable. Alas, it wasn't.

Let's face it, Nokia had no choice but to push this strategy to make people buy Lumia phones and build enough of a userbase. If Nokia wasn't on board, WP8 will not have 100k apps out of the gate. So I would think that for all the dumb decisions Nokia did (and there are a fair amount of them), Nokia's presence for WP has done more good than bad.

 

[cgk]

But there are also "external" reasons for that. Mainly that the legacy WPs will not be getting WP8. That has been known for a long time now, which has certainly had an effect on sales. I dont see how could one even expect "on par" sales for WP7 with that info out there.

That is an excuse and not a particularly convincing one - by that logic, it would be impossible to sell android phones with gingerbread on them yet the sales figures tell us that is not the case. Indeed, such fragmentation should have killed android stone dead - It hasn't. Many consumers don't even know that Samsung and HTC phones contain the same OS.

If people here want to claim that general consumers (rather than forum dwellers like us) know or care (in significant numbers) about version numbers, I would love to see some hard evidence because I have never come across it.

The more straightforward answer is that the consumer response to Windows Phone has been poor because neither Microsoft or the OEMs has ever provided a effective marketing message to convince The public to take a chance on it.

 

[Coreldan]

In a way I do not see the Android version similar to WP7 vs. WP8. I'm not very tech sawwy, but I've understood the WP8 is far more of a new OS compared to the Android version. Isnt it coded in a totally different way and all that? While WP8 is backwards compatible, stuff made for WP8 to my understanding wont necessarily work on WP7 unless it uses the code that is used in WP7, which seems in a way counterproductive.

What I'm trying to say is that to my understanding the leap from WP7 to WP8 is a far different kind of leap in terms of software than going from ICS to Jelly Bean? I might very well be wrong, that's the image I've gotten.

Regardless, if we look at marketshare within WP, Nokia's dedication and money put into it definitely shows there as Nokia pretty much dominates in the marketshare within WP. Yes, WP's own global marketshare isn't very fancy at this time, but recently we've started hitting several countries that has a 2 digit marketshare for WP.

I can admit to being a Nokia ******, but not a WP ******, I wish Nokia would've gone with Meego, but I can live with WP8. That said, it's not Nokia fanboyness only either that I'm going for Lumia 920, it's offerings are easily the most suitable for me on a personal level.

 

[cgk]

In a way I do not see the Android version similar to WP7 vs. WP8. I'm not very tech sawwy, but I've understood the WP8 is far more of a new OS compared to the Android version. Isnt it coded in a totally different way and all that? While WP8 is backwards compatible, stuff made for WP8 to my understanding wont necessarily work on WP7 unless it uses the code that is used in WP7, which seems in a way counterproductive.

What I'm trying to say is that to my understanding the leap from WP7 to WP8 is a far different kind of leap in terms of software than going from ICS to Jelly Bean? I might very well be wrong, that's the image I've gotten.

By even knowing that you exclude yourself from the majority of consumers who completely rely on advertising, marketing and interaction with the carrier.

 

[Gaichuke]

Just for the fun of it, I checked how carrier relations have been handled by someone with successful history in the US market with their device and this is how it looked:

Samsung Galaxy S series carrier availabilities

Announcement = the official announcement
Launch = first availability in other market than US
Dotted line = From official carrier announcement to availability

From this we can clearly see quite a few things. Samsung did make it's devices available in as many carriers as possible and started that by making each carrier a Galaxy S variant of their liking. Perhaps that could have been smart choice for Lumia 920 as well. Some rumors seem to think this is what they actually plan to do, but those rumors are countered by the fact that AT&T has said they have 6 months of exclusivity.

We can also see that it took a significantly longer time for Galaxy S and SII to become available for all the carriers compared to the SIII. Perhaps that wasn't as easy for Samsung to achieve as it was with SIII when they didn't have all that leveraging power from prior popularity of the Galaxy line. Samsung has also been very thorough when announcing carrier deals, every time announcing deals with all of them (except for SII in Verizon). That's something Nokia should take a note of.

Here's a Lumia 920 version as well for what is worth. At least they have improved quite a bit on closing the gap between announcement and first availability.

 

[rockstarzzz]

I can imagine a conversation going something like this.

Imagine a customer in a T-Mobile store.

"I want this EA game."

Well, it's available on these devices.

"Well, it is upgrade time for me. How about this HTC Windows Phone 8X?"

Great choice, but the game won't run on that device right now.

"But I thought you said there was a WP version?"

Yes, but it's exclusive to Nokia WP devices. I can sell you this low-resolution 810...

"No, I want a high end phone."

Well, the EA game is also available for this awesome Android handset here. Let me tell you about it...

*closes sale for an Android phone*

Why won't this sales rep offer a high end high resolution purity headsets free, wireless charger included deal of a pure view 8 mega pixel camera holding OIS technology supporting, Nokia Lumia 920 by opening that game on the phone using oven gloved hands?!?! :dry

 

[gsquared]

You all are making way too much of this. There is nothing stopping the other the other WP OEM's from bringing their own exclusive applications to their handsets.

Nokia is all about being different from the rest of the pack. Thats why they arn't selling Android phones.

If nobody noticed Nokia was selling more WP7 phones than all of the other OEM's combined. Its a rare thing to see people crying because a company is going "above and beyond" to win your business.

 

[power5]

920 is not on Tmobile I thought. Only the lower end phones "may" be going there.

Apple could not even keep exclusive forever. Every year they bring on more carriers they break new records. Granted they are apple records but still records. Not once have they released phones to new carriers and saw a decrease in sales. I am not a business expert but that seems to indicate exclusives do not increase sales. Verizon owners did not switch to ATT to get an iphone, they waited till it was available 4 years later. They wanted it, but not bad enough to switch.

 

[Coreldan]

920 is not on Tmobile I thought. Only the lower end phones "may" be going there.

Apple could not even keep exclusive forever. Every year they bring on more carriers they break new records. Granted they are apple records but still records. Not once have they released phones to new carriers and saw a decrease in sales. I am not a business expert but that seems to indicate exclusives do not increase sales. Verizon owners did not switch to ATT to get an iphone, they waited till it was available 4 years later. They wanted it, but not bad enough to switch.

But it's most likely not that they are aiming to break iPhone sales records, but I'd say a big reason into the exclusiveness is that Nokia is in a quite iffy situation generally speaking and with this exclusive deal AT&T subsidizies (i dont know how to spell the damn word) the whole price of the phone, which most likely ends very cheap for Nokia and/or good profit margins. Sure, with going non-exclusive with all carriers they might've sold more, but Nokia would've been the one paying for the phones on contracts.

I'm no businessman though

 

[Winterfang]

That's a pretty far-fetched scenario. Anyone who bases their platform decision on a single game title is not exactly capable of doing smart choices and should not be expected to do one.

Where WP platform is now, it's more important to give manufacturers options to differentiate to keep them interested on investing on WP. Instead of blaming Nokia, why aren't you blaming HTC, Samsung and Huawei for not stepping up and offering more?

People choose their phones over the most trivial things.

 

[SnailUK]

Apple could not even keep exclusive forever. Every year they bring on more carriers they break new records.

But surely thats the point. You go exclusive, you generate the excitement, then you open up to everyone.

Samsung & Apple don't need specific carrier marketting anymore. Everyone knows the product, many people already have them, they'll get millions just from people upgrading.

Nokia has a very different challenge. They don't have much of a history in the US, very few natural upgraders, so where does the business come from? Aside from us WP8 geeks, does anyone even know the 920 exists?

 

[aubreyq]

Aside from us WP8 geeks, does anyone even know the 920 exists?

No, but the deal is the marketing for it has not begun. All they have is that September 5 press conference. Things will be different once you start seeing the ads.

Mary Jo Foley (ZDNET) was at a Best Buy yesterday trying to pre-order the 8X and L920. Most BB employees didn't know what she was talking about. They obviously didn't have the training or had the info. Then again, were they really supposed to know already? I know AT&T has been training their employees, but I don't know about BB. I'm not sure they get the same level of training, if any. That's why I feel Microsoft is setting up these stores and kiosks (although those are just for the Surface) because they'll be better equipped to answer questions about their products plus they won't steer you to Android, etc.

 

[socialcarpet]

For Lumia to succeed, Windows Phone has to succeed. But if Lumia is too successful, Windows Phone dies (since Lumia is about app and carrier exclusives that eliminate the broader appeal of Windows Phone as a platform to OEMs, consumers and non-exclusive carriers).

What do you think?

I think Windows Phone will be fine. The Lumia has done far more to help the Windows Phone brand than it ever could to harm it. Before the Lumia, Windows Phone wasn't even on most people's radar. I knew about Windows Phone, but I wasn't even considering one until Nokia finally made some desirable handsets with designs worthy of the uniqueness of the OS.

Nokia's Lumia brand isn't hurting, it's helping. Just ask HTC, they would have had no idea how to design an interesting phone if the Lumia hadn't shown how to do something other than another boring gray and black Android retread.

Nokia is raising the bar so that the other OEM's can't just "call it in" but actually have to make an effort to make desirable Windows Phone products.

 

[brmiller1976]

Why won't this sales rep offer a high end high resolution purity headsets free, wireless charger included deal of a pure view 8 mega pixel camera holding OIS technology supporting, Nokia Lumia 920 by opening that game on the phone using oven gloved hands?!?! :dry

Because Nokia won't sell it on T-Mobile.

 

[independentvolume]

Now Nokia is pretty much selling junk bonds. Bet your entire companies future on a platform that has 3-4% market penetration and then sign exclusives on your flagship phones, chopping that pie even smaller, what ever could be wrong with that business plan?

 

[brmiller1976]

It is so vexing. Grrrrrrrr.

 

[jmshub]

WP7 was going really well for Nokia, and sales stats improving all the time, until Microsoft went and ^&*(^& them over by announcing that WP7 devices wouldn't be updated to WP8. I'm actually supprised they are still selling at all.

The latest results obviously reflect this.

This continues to drive me nuts. Sales will fall as WP8 gets close to launch. iPhone sales dropped on the eve of the iphone 5 launch, and existing phones were upgradable to ios6.

Microsoft had to admit that existing devices wouldn't be compatible with WP8. If they waited until the full on launch of WP8 to announce the sunsetting of WP7 hardware, the fallout would be much more severe.

I would also bet everything that I own that Nokia knew full well that WP8 was going to be incompatible with current devices long before they even committed to the platform. Companies don't conduct business with other companies without doing all the due diligence investigation. While it may not have been your intention in saying so, it wasn't like Microsoft blindsided Nokia or any of their other partners with a sudden announcement that current devices were incompatible with the upcoming software rollout.

 

[brmiller1976]

Nokia was selling more WP7 phones than all of the other OEM's combined.

Only in non-US markets. In the most competitive and highest-revenue market for smartphones -- the USA -- Nokia remains well behind HTC in total device share.