What if Microsoft's Surface Phone is like Google's Nexus?

[anon(6078578)]

The thing that is being forgotten here, is that with Surface range as it stands now, Microsoft just needed to convince the market that a hybrid tablet device made sense. The devices entered the market with its Windows OS already well proven along with the fact that it already had all the apps anyone could possibly need ie the exact opposite of Windows Phone.

Windows Phone came to market as the underdog in both the OS and ecosystem, and that has only gotten worse, so this is where the comparison with Google Nexus ends.

Universal Apps are still not going to solve the problem of apps that only make sense on Phones. In other words, they are still going to be in the chicken and egg situation since the Surface phone won't sell in great enough numbers due to premium price to make any difference, and OEMs won't continue to make Windows 10 mobile phones if they don't sell enough due to the app problem.

If the app problem isn't solved then Microsoft will have to can it. Both Paul Thurrot and Mary Jo Foley on windows weekly said that while they are continuing to keep it alive, they won't do this indefinitely if it doesn't improve.

Of course, as we all hope, perhaps Microsoft have finally found the secret formula and we'll all be looking back as the Optimists say "we told you so!". If that is the case then I, for one, will have no problem whatsoever in acknowledging they were right.

If UWP is going to work, then surely within a year after Windows 10 phone is released to everyone, we should start seeing some dramatic results. It's no good saying after a year has passed, that we just need to give them 2 more years, as we are being told the idea of UWP is that the Windows 10 market share should be enough to drive this, not Windows 10 mobile.

 

[anon(6078578)]

Having said the above, what if Google finally relented and created some universal apps for Windows 10 ie at least Youtube and Maps, do you think that would be enough of a game changer to get people onto Windows Phone? More to the point, the fact that Google still haven't is surely telling is it not? I know many here would say they don't care about Google, but far more do and it is probably one of the main reasons for them not using Windows Phone.

 

[Kram Sacul]

On the contrary, the above pic proves my point of mobile first being on the forefront. Here is what I mean. For Nadella, also the new Microsoft, mobile does not just mean mobile phones (aka cellphones)., it means the mobility of experience, which in this case being Microsoft services like Office, Outlook, Groove and recently typing (in the form of Swift acquisition). The traditional meaning of mobile aka cellphone is dead to them. This has been explained multiple times here in the forum and else where. Also refer to my previous post:http://forums.windowscentral.com/wi...ive-surface-phone-save-windows-10-mobile.html )

Not too distant in the future we probably will see Microsoft services being used on all mobile platforms. An iPhone will essentially be a "Windows phone" with people using Microsoft services like the key board, to the calendar, to email, to Cortana and Office. The hardware doesn't matter; Microsoft may well own the Services part of all iPhones and Android phones combined.. To me that is "power". It is underestimated now; Microsoft is slowly and quietly playing it right without much fanfare and bruhaa. Satya is nothing short of a visionary. Microft's Windows mobile may well not include a mobile phone (a hardware) in future. Who knows! But I like the way the company is heading, creating its own distinct path and not just going with the flow.

The not too distant future? MS has been exporting pieces of Windows Phone to other platforms for a while now. They even whored Cortana out. They've done everything in their power to make WP even more irrelevant. Nadella may be a visionary (lol). It's just that his vision doesn't include Windows Phone, W10M or it's users.

 

[Arun3]

The not too distant future? MS has been exporting pieces of Windows Phone to other platforms for a while now. They even whored Cortana out. They've done everything in their power to make WP even more irrelevant. Nadella may be a visionary (lol). It's just that his vision doesn't include Windows Phone, W10M or it's users.

Okay.. So you seem to repeatedly miss my point of saying windows "phone" in its traditional sense is no more; it is becoming Windows on any phone (mobile). On top it, judging from your comments, you seem really frustrated. Probably best to leave it here. Enjoy your day .

 

[GrandGerminator]

In fact, they already did : The official names of the HTC 8X and 8S are "Windows Phone 8X" and "Windows Phone 8S". It changed nothing.

 

[Arun3]

It is what Microsoft already did with Surface Tablet. They showed a strong direction and OEMs followed. Pre-Surface, how many tablets were running Windows Desktop? Not many. Now they are everywhere and the number of OEMs offering them, as well as the number of models, is growing all the time...

Microsoft has already hinted this is the direction they want to go. They are scaling back from pumping out the number of new releases which Nokia did every year and they want to show an example at certain price points, while allowing OEMs to fill the market.

Here is the difference.

Google works with an OEM (or two) each cycle to make a benchmark device. Solidly conservative on the high-end. Not all out, but very nice spec and current. Their goal is to showcase the software. To show what the Android Platform can do and encourage OEMs to use Google's platform on their hardware.

With Surface Tablet, Microsoft created hardware in-house that was designed to show what the form factor was capable of. It brought lots of new hardware innovation to the form factor and created a vehicle for the platform. In a lot of ways, Surface changed how tablets are viewed and moved them from being a means of enticing consumers to buy into the software and spend more on consuming Apps. Surface Tablet brought about a productivity oriented revolution to tablets that makes them fit into managing our resources rather than simply marking time with games and entertainment.

You see this duality getting mixed in more and more. Sure you can play games on Surface and get productive on the other platforms. But Surface really broke the Tablet Form Factor free of the smart phone model and pushed it out to being much less of a toy in the consumer mindset.

Hopefully, Surface Phone can bring something unique to open up the form factor to new perceptions in the market. I expect it will be a high level reference device. I also don't look for it to try and capture the space so much as help show OEMs a new way forward. I imagine Continuum as an opening salvo...

You made some excellent points there! It was a great read. Nice distinction between Google's choice of showcasing the android platform vs MS's to pushing a new form factor. The success of other platforms becoming more productive (at least to some degree) is probably a result of MS making their services available on them aka making their services 'mobile'. The think the whole idea of Surface came about not to just push a form factor, but to showcase MS's new OS, Windows 8, which was a radical departure from the past. The productivity thing got mixed in there because that's what MS is famous for and where it performs flawlessly. And on the matter of pushing buyers to get more apps, that's what MS is trying hard these days (and keep the momentum by showing to the developers, say for example, people use the Netflix app on Windows more than the website).
Unfortunately a new form factor aka Surface phone alone is not enough for it to take off. But it is enough to spike curiosity and may be (just like the Surface), a 3rd generation phone will become a hit, provided the platform gets APPS by then!

 

[Axeelant]

I really think the Surface phone would sell, even without more Win 10 apps , IF, and only IF, it would be an overall high end device, made of premium materials (same as Surface Pro), that would be able to run .exe files! This thing would bring lots of people to the Windows platform.

It will cost the same as iphone (90% sure of that), but i know half this forum would get one, and so would I!

 

[Christopher Kendalls]

So here is something that I have been thinking of for the past few weeks about the future of Windows Phone. We have heard from several sources that Windows phone as we knew till now, is dead. Whether one chooses to believe it or not is his pejorative. It may just be the semantics aka Windows Phone, that is dead. But the new realm of Windows on Mobile is flourishing. Mobile is a huge part, if not the foremost one for Mr. Nadella's vision of "mobile first, cloud first" to hold true.

So here's the thing, what if Microsoft does a Google and makes their version of "Surface" phones as the latter makes their Nexus lines? Rope in an OEM or two to manufacture and sell their mobile efforts. They can license Windows 10 to the OEMs at a reduced price or make it free for pushing MS's mobile (aka cellphone) efforts. Microsoft has been known to work closely with HP and other companies in making their current breed of svelte PCs. Why can't this happen with phones?

I for one would like Dell to be the foremost partner and see the revival of Dell Venue Pro. It was one of the best looking phones of the bygone era (if I may say so). Dell has made Windows laptops "sexy" with their new breed of XPSs. I would like to see them do that with Windows phone.

What do you guys think? Is it a good idea? And again, this is just a "what if" scenario. Microsoft may well make their own phones.

Same thing I've always been saying. There are no cheap Nexus phones, no cheap "Google" phones. Just cheap third party OEM phones. Windows Phone should be the same way. Microsoft creates a premium phone, everyone else creates the budget and mid tier phones. Microsoft will have to make "a" phone; Windows Phone could never survive completely on third party support, but they don't need to create budget devices. Its just confusing.

Look at the mess they've made already. The only budget phone people are buying is the 640. None of the Windows 10 phones have captured any of the excitement people have for WP 8.1. The 950 was overpriced. The 550 was interesting. The 650 actually looks better than the 950. Very confusing for someone that isn't already in this ecosystem. And the 950 is the only phone that actually has all of the features people want in Windows 10, or, all of the features that are meant to differentiate Windows 10 from Windows Phone 8.1. You don't see Apple and Google doing this; if they offer a phone it has all of the bells and whistles. If the phone is deprecated, someone else developed it. Windows Phone market share is at an all time low anyway I would adopt this strategy right now. If Microsoft does not take Windows 10 on phones seriously no one else will.

 

[Koen C]

If Microsoft does not take Windows 10 on phones seriously no one else will.

Hear, hear !

 

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

You know, here's my take on the matter:

While I am certainly able to look at Windows Phone as a stand alone entity (narrow view), as well as how it fits into the larger Microsoft ecosystem (medium view), the view I think I prefer, and the one I tend to default to is how Windows Phone in particular, or especially the larger Microsoft ecosystem fits in the whole panorama of today's tech scene across all brands (wide view).

There are cases where Microsoft's big picture approach is the most extreme of the three, either hot or cold. I.e. it is by far the most internally integrated and universal platform (contrasted to Apple's VERY fragmented OS X, iOS, WatchOS, tvOS, whatever AutoOS is called, what whatever they think of next). But I think the points where Windows is its most interesting is when it finds itself as the middle option. For instance, it is FAAAAAR less locked down and insular than Apple, and yet, FAAAAR less open, and free and customizable as Android.

So, finally to the point I get. In the case of Apple phones, you have Apple's own product - the iPhone, and that's it. In the case of Android, you have the Nexus line, a quasi(pseudo?)-first party device, running pure Android, getting the first updates, and wearing Google's proprietary Nexus badging....but it's not truly a first party device. It's made by a rotating cast of OEM manufacturers, in conference with Google, sure, but it's still not a Google product per se. Also, Apple's phone is sooooooo central to its ecosystem that there is no others - literally. By contrast, Android's [ahem] "1st party" device is significantly dwarfed by several third party product lines, so that Google's not even the star of it's own party - in fact, you can barely see them in the photograph.

In both of these ways, I like that Windows is once again, the middle option. In the Windows ecosystem, like Android, there are third party OEMs making serious devices, so that if you either don't want or can't afford 1st party, you have serious options. And yet, in the Windows ecosystem, like Apple, the 1st party devices are the star of the show, what everyone thinks by default when they think "Windows Phone" (or iPhone) - in Android, most people think Samsung. Also, thanks to the purchase of Lumia, and ESPECIALLY with the upcoming Surface Phone, the Windows 1st party devices, like Apple's, are TRULY 1st party!

So, in all these ways, I DEEPLY DESIRE Windows Phone, regardless of whatever measure of success or failure it ultimately will find to remain "the middle option". Therefore, I do not want to see "Surface" or "Lumia" to be handled by a 3rd party a la the Nexus. However, I do want to see Microsoft continue to court 3rd party OEMs to make increasingly more, and increasingly better devices so we can see a deeper, wider, richer more "Android-like" sea of 3rd party phones - only with the caveat that "the 'real' Windows Phone" always says Microsoft on it.

Cheers!

 

[Kram Sacul]

Okay.. So you seem to repeatedly miss my point of saying windows "phone" in its traditional sense is no more; it is becoming Windows on any phone (mobile). On top it, judging from your comments, you seem really frustrated. Probably best to leave it here. Enjoy your day .

I get it. Windows as a service, Nadella is a god, yada, yada, coming soon.

 

[Greg Wenzler]

An iPhone will essentially be a "Windows phone" with people using Microsoft services like the key board, to the calendar, to email, to Cortana and Office. The hardware doesn't matter; Microsoft may well own the Services part of all iPhones and Android phones combined.

MS apps for iOS are polished and well done...but I have a hard time seeing iPhone users using MS apps at all, except for Office when it's needed for work. I understand what Satya is going for here, and in a year we will know better, but I see this as a last ditch attempt at trying to be somewhat relevant in mobile, and think it will fail quickly with little fanfare, with the exception of Office applications. Those of us that frequent these forums might use MS apps and services, but for the normal Apple or Samsung user, they have truly zero interest in what MS brings to the table.

 

[Mindi B]

It's a good idea(in theory), but the Surface Phone, in whatever form it takes, won't solve the one issue that holds the platform back=apps. If the devs and apps don't come, it won't matter who makes it.

Absolutely spot on, and sadly why the platform is dead.

Weeks and months pass where I come back and check on things, hoping for some news that suddenly, Instagram and FB are finally going official with their new releases to kick start things, and it just never comes.

No doubt the Surface Phone will be gorgeous, we all know that. Hell I'm excited to see it. But in order to come back to WP, there needs to be services, and most importantly, a real effort to get the major services onto the platform. For 5 long years, it's gone nowhere. It's such an awful shame, such a waste of something so good.

 

[anon(6078578)]

Absolutely spot on, and sadly why the platform is dead.

Weeks and months pass where I come back and check on things, hoping for some news that suddenly, Instagram and FB are finally going official with their new releases to kick start things, and it just never comes.

No doubt the Surface Phone will be gorgeous, we all know that. Hell I'm excited to see it. But in order to come back to WP, there needs to be services, and most importantly, a real effort to get the major services onto the platform. For 5 long years, it's gone nowhere. It's such an awful shame, such a waste of something so good.

That reminded me of the time when Starbucks was rumored to finally be creating an app for Windows phone. I remember thinking that if that happens, then "Windows Phone will have finally made it" :winktongue:

In the end they did make one, but it was for Mexico only and the one for the USA never appeared. I can't imagine the Mexican app could be that vastly different from a USA one, so the work was already done, although maybe I was wrong. In any case I guess Starbucks just wasn't convinced enough that Windows Phone was going anywhere to go that last step.

 

[Robert Aspgren]

I always thought that the whole point of making a Surface Phone was to have a fully working phone PC, a small surface. Meaning that it would run everything that a regular PC does, so there wouldn't be any need for apps. That's at least my Surface phone. Doing a "regular" Lumia and just rename it to Surface makes no sense. No a Surface phones means PC phone

 

[anon(5383410)]

I Imagine they'll make their own phone, as they are moving ever more into the hardware market with Surface + Surface Book etc. It'd be amazing if they did a release with also included updated and fully functioning universal apps for Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Whatsapp Etc. MAYBE that would get more people on board.

They announced universal Facebook and instagram apps when they announced surface pro 4/surface/950 last October. Hopefully those are in development.

 

[Mindi B]

And the news continues to get worse. For all my flaming about how WP is going, of course I don't want to see it die. I want to see something miraculous happen - but it's not looking good at all.

Windows Phone sales have almost ground to a halt

 

[ohgood]

Not too distant in the future we probably will see Microsoft services being used on all mobile platforms. An iPhone will essentially be a "Windows phone" with people using Microsoft services like the key board, to the calendar, to email, to Cortana and Office. The hardware doesn't matter; Microsoft may well own the Services part of all iPhones and Android phones combined.. To me that is "power". It is underestimated now; Microsoft is slowly and quietly playing it right without much fanfare and bruhaa. Satya is nothing short of a visionary. Microft's Windows mobile may well not include a mobile phone (a hardware) in future. Who knows! But I like the way the company is heading, creating its own distinct path and not just going with the flow.

The quiet/sneaky offensive that microsoft is going to win marketshare with is betting on people buying a brand new iphone/android, and not being able to wait to get home and install microsofts offerings for a keyboard, cloud storage and office ? Before they even put a case on it, they're going to be jonesing to install the latest version of office and bang out some spreadsheets ? and a keyboard ? and a cloud login ?

 

[anon(6078578)]

And the news continues to get worse. For all my flaming about how WP is going, of course I don't want to see it die. I want to see something miraculous happen - but it's not looking good at all.

Windows Phone sales have almost ground to a halt

Look on the brightside, Windows Phone still has over FIVE times the market share of Blackberry :wink:

 

[anon(6078578)]

The quiet/sneaky offensive that microsoft is going to win marketshare with is betting on people buying a brand new iphone/android, and not being able to wait to get home and install microsofts offerings for a keyboard, cloud storage and office ? Before they even put a case on it, they're going to be jonesing to install the latest version of office and bang out some spreadsheets ? and a keyboard ? and a cloud login ?

The problem is most ordinary people I know don't use office and they hardly use email and if they do, they're most likely going to use the default email used to setup Android or iOS, and as for OneDrive, again if it requires setup they'll go with the default. We often forget, that as 'techies' what's best is not obvious to them, they'll go with the flow.