Worse Performance than SP2

From using Intel Extreme tuning I can see that it is the CPU getting throttled. As for the other part. I was wrong. I ran Dota at a lower resolution with a different aspect ratio to maintain 25 fps I believe I ran it at 1320x768. For same settings, I meant things like med texture quality, low shadows, etc. On the 1920x1080 the SP2 gets around 30fps and the SP3 gets around 10. That was my bad. Also yes, Dota is a equivalent to LOL (advertised on their page), in fact LOL was a game desiged because DOTA didn't exist as a standalone game, I believe it was still a Warcraft 3 mod at that time.

Well, the reason I suspect that the GPU is getting throttled (at least in the case of the benchmarks) is that the i5 showed the expected increase in performance in CPU-intensive tasks but parity with the i3 in GPU-intensive tasks (i.e., games). It could also be that games cause the entire SoC to heat up and that forces the CPU to throttle as well. The way to test it would be to run CPU-intensive (but not GPU-intensive) tasks and see if the CPU throttles.
 
As an update, I ran the Intel stress test for both the CPU and the GPU. The GPU test caused more sustained and higher throttling than the CPU test. At least by that test, it appears that the GPU is a more significant source of heat than the CPU.
 
Can you blow a fan at the back of the surface and see if that helps to prevent throttling?
 
As an update, I ran the Intel stress test for both the CPU and the GPU. The GPU test caused more sustained and higher throttling than the CPU test. At least by that test, it appears that the GPU is a more significant source of heat than the CPU.

Could you provide screenshots so I can compare my results to yours? Did you use intel Extreme Tuning?
 
But the thing is if the SP3 is supposed to be a laptop replacement, it should offer full performance. I use my SP2 occasionally for Adobe Premiere. I'd be disappointed if my rendering times were extended due to throttling. A lot of Adobe software uses GPU acceleration including Photoshop so it's not just gaming. I don't really use my SP2 for hardcore gaming (it is Intel graphics after all) but I do expect it to run fast (and so far it has been a speed demon, only beaten by my desktop).

Idle speculation about how it might or might not perform is just that - idle speculation. As a point of reference, at least when running PhotoShop CC and Lightroom, the i5 SP3 varies between matching SP2 performance and being slightly better. Yes, I have owned both and tested accordingly. There is no performance hit even when pulling together a massive panorama composed of ten+ images Fans kicked in with both units and they got equally warm - performance was only fractionally different with the edge going to SP3. This was the theme for every usage. If it wasn't for the WiFi problems with the SP3, I would have no complaints. Ironically those were not even present at purchase. They started after the fix was released....
 
Sp is laptom replacement for day to day workers ( office, emails, presentations ). Any taxing things will blow it heads off. Be realistiic. In such a small factor you can't expect big performance.
Sent from my Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

I am sorry but that is just opinion masquerading as fact. I consider Photoshop CC to be a "taxing" application - even more so when run in conjunction with Lightroom, Illustrator and InDesign. SP3 matches or beats SP2 by a small margin in my actual real world experience and both are faster than the same applications on comparable i5s in other real laptops or third generations laptop i7s. Again, this is actual experience, not just speculation. Microsoft has done an impressive job with optimization in both SP2 and SP3 to maximize performance. Since I don't play games, I will not speak to that subject nor will I minimize peoples' concerns. By the same token though, I object to blanket statements about performance that are based solely on opinion regarding unnamed "taxing" applications.
 
Sp is laptom replacement for day to day workers ( office, emails, presentations ). Any taxing things will blow it heads off. Be realistiic. In such a small factor you can't expect big performance.
Sent from my Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

So, you don't think taxing stuff like photoshopping, video editing, compiling visual studio code, running tomcat, having Virtual machines will perform well on an SP3? (sometimes all three opened at the same time)
 
So, you don't think taxing stuff like photoshopping, video editing, compiling visual studio code, running tomcat, having Virtual machines will perform well on an SP3? (sometimes all three opened at the same time)


It will run, but i think it will push the CPU ( and gpu ) under their basic performance levels. I definitely do not think that it wont run. But running software on hw that can't handle it and perform worse then it should makes no sense to me. It is like having a fast car but driving only under 50 ( unintentionally )
 
I don't know what changed but now my SP3 is showing signs of GPU Power Limit throttling. The CPU throttling is less now.
 
here's a tiny excerpt of Anandtech's review of the Surface Pro 3. I think Anand has probably the most comprehensive reviews of anyone out there (he doesn't just want to throw out reviews as fast as possible to get hits but instead takes the time to write a proper review):

by the way, he likes it a lot... And I suggest reading the entire article as he put a ton of effort into it (multiple pages). But on the performance versus SP2...

AnandTech | Microsoft Surface Pro 3 Review

Here's a look at the original Surface Pro while running an hour long loop of 3DMark Ice Storm Unlimited. I chose this test in particular as it behaves as a nice balance between CPU and GPU workloads on the device:

SP1thermalszoom.jpg
Surface Pro

You can almost trace out the path of the heat pipe carrying the thermal load away from the CPU and to the two fans in the system. I measured peak temperature here at 41.7C.


Now let's look at Surface Pro 2:
SP2thermalszoom.jpg
Despite a move to Haswell, Microsoft lets the device get much warmer. You can make out the same U-shape thermal distribution as heat is carried away using the two fans, but the temperatures are much higher. I measured a maximum temperature running the same workload of 47.3C.


Here we have Surface Pro 3:
SP3thermalszoom.jpg
Right away you can see the new cooling system at work. The thermal load is mostly confined to the left side of the image (we are looking at the back with the kickstand unfolded towards the camera, so if you were looking at the display we're talking about the upper right side of the machine). The cooling solution is far more compact and I suspect ready for a move to Core M (Broadwell). Peak temps however are much closer to Surface Pro 1 at 43.2C.

The thermal story points us in the right direction. Either Surface Pro 3's fan and heatpipe configuration is able to remove heat far better than Surface Pro 2's design could, or the CPU in SP2 doesn't get as warm. I suspect it's the latter.

I first stumbled upon this behavior while trying to gather thermal data for Surface Pro 3. I noticed large run to run variance if I repeatedly ran 3DMark 11. I'm used to seeing this sort of behavior on smartphones that throttle quickly, but it was unique for a Surface Pro device.

3DMark is a synthetic test so the real question was how would Surface Pro 3 perform in a real world scenario where sustained CPU/GPU load was guaranteed for a long period of time. I figured a game playable on the machine like Dota 2 would be a great example. I asked our own Ryan Smith to whip up a custom benchmark using the game and I ran it on Surface Pro 1, 2, 3 as well as a 13-inch MacBook Air (Early 2014). The graph below illustrates average frame rate during our Dota 2 benchmark for all of the systems:

As you can see, even with Surface Pro 3's fan running the platform doesn't deliver sustained performance equal to last year's model. It's an understandable tradeoff given the substantial reduction in device thickness (and thus improvement in usability), but it's important to note nonetheless.

64340.png

Workloads that are CPU and GPU heavy are one thing, but what about sustained productivity workloads?

I decided to use the PCMark 8 v2 Work suite which includes web browsing, office producitivity (word processing and spreadsheet work) and video chat. It's a far cry from a Cinebench loop but I figured if I saw throttling here it would easily be present in heavier workloads. Each run of the suite actually repeats the tests three times and takes around 20 minutes to complete on the Surface devices. I measured performance for three suite runs (9 total runs of the Work loop) on both Surface Pro 2 and 3:

2qs4e2a.jpg

As you can see, there's a 9% drop in performance on Surface Pro 3 from the first suite run to the next while Surface Pro 2 delivers consistent performance between runs. By the third run Surface Pro 3's performance recovers a bit, although it's still a few percent below the initial, cool run.

Both devices do a good job of reaching max turbo fairly regularly, but Surface Pro 2 appears to spend more time at its max turbo state. By the last loop of the benchmark Surface Pro 3's max power is limited (green line) by the time we get to the video chat workload, I suspect that is where we lose a bit of performance. I'm only looking at the last of three suite runs here, if we looked at the second one the results would be even worse.

I haven't tested Surface Pro 3 in Microsoft's new docking station so I don't know if the device changes its thermal profile at all when docked, but in tablet or laptop mode it's definitely going to throttle quicker than Surface Pro 2 did. I must stress that I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. Surface Pro 3 improves usability over Surface Pro 2 by leaps and bounds, and it's still faster under load than the original Surface Pro. All of this comes at the expense of reduced sustained performance. As you'll see from the rest of our tests, peak performance did get better over last year's model.

Surface Pro 3's single fan is more noticeable than in Surface Pro 2. The sound it produces isn't necessarily louder, and when spinning it sounds a lot like any other Ultrabook with a fan in it. Compared to Surface Pro 2, the fan does kick in more frequently. For light tablet workloads or even light office work on Surface Pro 3, the fan remains silent. It's only when you're doing anything CPU or GPU intensive that you'll hear it spin up. The big difference is that in situations where you wouldn't hear fans spinning on Surface Pro 2, you'll sometimes hear it on SP3. This is the tradeoff that comes with the thinner chassis.
 

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one more thing to note. It's in Microsoft's power to adjust through the firmware and updates how much throttling is done or how much or less the fan turns or or how fast it spins. Anand's article was written in June. You may see differences between then and now based on how Microsoft looks at the data and adjusts the behavior of the SP3. If they think that it can handle the temps that the SP2 can, they'll probably adjust accordingly.
 
I am sorry but that is just opinion masquerading as fact. I consider Photoshop CC to be a "taxing" application - even more so when run in conjunction with Lightroom, Illustrator and InDesign. SP3 matches or beats SP2 by a small margin in my actual real world experience and both are faster than the same applications on comparable i5s in other real laptops or third generations laptop i7s. Again, this is actual experience, not just speculation. Microsoft has done an impressive job with optimization in both SP2 and SP3 to maximize performance. Since I don't play games, I will not speak to that subject nor will I minimize peoples' concerns. By the same token though, I object to blanket statements about performance that are based solely on opinion regarding unnamed "taxing" applications.

Photoshop CC is not "taxing" software. It sits idle most of the time, uses a burst of CPU, then sits idle some more. It sits idle more than it is using the CPU.

Try this for professional taxing software:
Cakewalk - SONAR Family - SONAR X3 Producer, SONAR X3 Studio and SONAR X3

The throttling on Surface Pro 3 will make this program completely unusable. You have to budget your virtual instruments and effects based on CPU resources, and if they get cut in half after 3 or 4 minutes of sustained use (and this program can push CPU to the max), then your whole song gets wrecked. It can be frustrating enough to balance resources in general, throw in the possibility the CPU might be crippled halfway through your song and you might as well not bother using it. Note that laptops are popular for these types of programs due to their portability for events.

The SP3 may work in your use scenario, but in its current form surface pro 3 is certainly not a laptop replacement for all professionals.
 
Personally I haven't seen my SP3 really drop under 1.2 Ghz during heavy load (mostly gaming) - It generally drops then stays around 1.2 tio 1.5 Ghz. The only times I've noticed it lower is when the computer is mostly idle and it drops the clock speed to around 0.9 Ghz to 1 Ghz to scale.

I feel some of the performance "issues" are a bit overblown, but I've always expected some throttling under heavy load. It's not uncommon for very thin devices like this or ultrabooks.

I'm sure as time goes on MS will adjust the performance and cooling settings as they learn more and continue to develop it. They are probably erring on the side of caution - preferring to throttle more to be safe than to keep it closer to its theoretical limits. I prefer it that way. I've seen laptops slowly die to bad/insufficient heating and overwork.

I think it's perfectly possible to do the occasional gaming and media development on the SP3, but I wouldn't choose it as my only device (I have a desktop for that). Some people need to keep their expectations a bit tempered. If you want a gaming laptop buy one designed for that with discrete graphics.
 
It is bizarre to me why they removed the second fan from sp3. Unless they were expecting to use a cooler CPU than what made it into production, the only thing I can think of is cost cutting measures. Which is a shame, as a second fan could likely assist greatly in cooling the device resulting in less throttling and lower noise. Not to mention a cooler chassis (upper right gets quite warm).
 
Which is a shame, as a second fan could likely assist greatly in cooling the device resulting in less throttling and lower noise.

What you miss in your argument is that Microsoft is also claiming a certain run-time per battery charge. With more cooling you might solve the throttling problem but not the battery drain.
The root issue is, that core i processors even happen to give you less performance than mobile processors like ARM assuming the same power envelope. Performance/Watt is just very bad for these processors.
 
This is also true which also makes me wonder why ms didn't use the haswell "Y" chips which should be better for this application I'd think.

I'd rather have constant medium performance than alternating fast and slow. Hopefully Broadwell or Cherry Trail will be in future SP3s.
 
This is also true which also makes me wonder why ms didn't use the haswell "Y" chips which should be better for this application I'd think.

I think because haswell hadn't been released yet. Intel said by 4th Quarter.
 
Idle speculation about how it might or might not perform is just that - idle speculation. As a point of reference, at least when running PhotoShop CC and Lightroom, the i5 SP3 varies between matching SP2 performance and being slightly better. Yes, I have owned both and tested accordingly. There is no performance hit even when pulling together a massive panorama composed of ten+ images Fans kicked in with both units and they got equally warm - performance was only fractionally different with the edge going to SP3. This was the theme for every usage. If it wasn't for the WiFi problems with the SP3, I would have no complaints. Ironically those were not even present at purchase. They started after the fix was released....

Use device manager to roll back to the shipping drivers. They work way better. I have now done this twice.
 
This is also true which also makes me wonder why ms didn't use the haswell "Y" chips which should be better for this application I'd think.

Technically Haswell Y is more marketing than an architectural improvement. They are basically Haswell U with worse GPU (HD4200) and clocked lower at nominal speed. It would still go down to 800MHz under load.
If you think about it, core i5 processors have about double the single core performance/MHz compared to ARM Cortex A-15. However a core i5 running at 800MHz gets beaten left and right by Cortex A-15 at 1.6+GHz. To be fair, a Surface 2 for example also clocks down to about 1.3 GHz under heavy load, that is without a fan though.