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10-21-2012 01:59 PM
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  1. squire777's Avatar
    In its current state WP8 can't support 1080P but if I remember correctly the OS would be able to be modified in the future to support it (just like additional core support in the future). I think that was one of the differences between the kernal of WP7 and WP8.
    10-17-2012 03:30 PM
  2. andrelamont's Avatar
    I swear you all need to go to Android and be done with it.
    So my Cleveland Browns have been the dogs of the NFL for the last 13 years and using this logic...Real fans shouldn't voice their opinions about the players,QB,coach,GM and owner as we head to a 1-15 record? I don't buy that. You can be a fan and still not agree with the direction a product/team is going. I love my Honda Accord but wish it would do better on gas...so I guess I am not a true/real Honda fan?
    Voicing your opinion about a product doesn't not always mean you hate it. Heck I criticize my sons effort in soccer last week...should I just go get another son?
    There is just no way a closed source OS can keep up with the rapid evolution of hardware on Android, especially given the marketshare. By the same measure, Android developers simply don't have the time to optimise their hardware properly initially, because they are in such a race to deliver the next best phone.
    Google controls their branch / fork of Android....Amazon controls theirs, in the arena of phones MS is not competing with vast army of open source zealots with pea shooters. They have a larger employee count than Google...as well as many more layers of management that probably slows things down.

    Trust me, chip-set makers, display manufacturer keep OS vendors in the loop about their future plans years ahead of time (cough roadmaps ) so they would not have a product out there that's not usable by anyone.


    Stats are great for getting geeks excited, but optimisation, and properly architected stuff takes time. Hence why a dual core 1.3ghz iPhone can easily keep up with the best Android has to offer.

    There is soo much to phone performance, yet everyone chooses to focus on the simple stats, rather than all the important stuff.
    For the Nth time, this is not yet another discussion about how important display X is, or benchmark that. Its about WP not being in position to handle new hardware features and adding support months later than their competitors. Again its about WP being late to add support for HW features so OEM give their best efforts to other platforms that WILL. We are not talking about weeks later....years later. In other words, OEM will put their latest product on platforms that will support their particular HW and there have been several cases where WP was the stumbling block

    Tell me, whats holding up Nokia from releasing the 808 on WP? There is a very specific reason(s) why it hasn't made it to WP as of Nov 2012


    I hope an 808 version for WP is coming and I bet a version is, but as or right now...the OS is the hold up.

    This is just a list of OEM hardware features that MS was 1 year late on or more
    • SD card support
    • LTE
    • dual-core support
    • non QualComm chipset support ( Exynos, Nvidia Tegra and even crusty old intel )
    • 720 HD, 1080 HD support
    • NFC
    • Bluetooth 3.0/4.0


    I get no one cares about these features and they are irrelevant to 9821% of the people, it's about the OS not being in position to support feature X, so OEM choose other platforms to display their latest and greatest whiz-bang feature

    So all real fans of WP should never voice their opinions about these features being late but just switch vendors? I would argue that REAL Cleveland Browns fans stick with their loser team for 13 straight years instead of becoming ugly Steeler fans :P
    tissotti and power5 like this.
    10-17-2012 03:36 PM
  3. tissotti's Avatar
    I so agree with you andrelamont.

    Imo the kind of defensive stance some have against the specs is just silly. Reminds me so much of the Nokia's MeeGo and Palm's WebOS community.
    Such a fan of the OS and UI (that's great!), but can't admit that the OS needs to be better in every aspect to win masses.

    WP7.X was horribly behind in hardware support that heavily limited likes of Nokia (that actually brought it's innovations to Symbian rather than WP), Samsung and HTC.
    My thought at least has been that now with more flexible kernel we might see much faster new hardware adoption. This was what MS actually said on the very first WP8 presentation.

    There's no CE kernel anymore to blame so we will see. Though on the limited amount of SoC's (one available for WP8) i can actually agree partly with MS. It's the reason we will likely see some great looking games on WP8 and have fast UI. This is part of the reason why Apple shines on speed compared to how much power Android usually needs.

    MS just needs to have support for the fresh and good stuff, even if the amount of different SoC's is limited. Once again the Apple model, just with more than one hw manufacturer.
    Last edited by tissotti; 10-17-2012 at 03:50 PM.
    10-17-2012 03:45 PM
  4. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    So if you don't think a certain OS is perfect, you shouldn't use it? I don't think ANY OS is perfect... so does that mean I shouldn't be using any devices with an operating system (which in a sense, is pretty much every device). I'm not going back to the stone age... If people have GENUINE complaints they will voice them. I prefer WP to Android/iOS, I will use it on my phone. LIKE IT OR NOT I WILL! YOU HEAR ME? I am allowed to say what I believe will improve the OS without being told "Go android!" etc. If I try to raise a point and someone tells me to just go Android, I will just put them on ignore straight off the bat.
    10-17-2012 03:45 PM
  5. squire777's Avatar
    Being a fan of a sports team is a different kind of loyalty than that of owning/using personal electronics. Changing allegiances to teams is different than walking into a store and buying a different product. I'd say your analogy to your Honda is more fitting.

    However, let's say you did own a Honda and say that you love it, but at the same time complain that it isn't good enough as a Toyota on gas, ride quality, interior etc... then why would you stick with Honda and be unhappy when the time came to get a new car?

    If you do have some emotional or sentimental connections to Honda then those should override the technical advantages that the Toyota would have and you would be fine with the shortcomings of the car you own.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying WP should not be criticized because we all know it is far from perfect. What I am saying is that as consumers we have a choice to buy what we feel suits us best. I used to be with Android until my Nexus one became sluggish. At the time WP7 looked more appealing to me so I jumped ship instead of being upset at Android for it's lag problems. My main issue is with a group of posters here that are constantly saying that Android and iOS are much better options for them, yet for whatever reason they are not making the switch as if they are chained to WP for life.
    10-17-2012 03:52 PM
  6. power5's Avatar
    Wow, this thing crams a 1080p 5" screen into a form factor that is
    143mm x 71.12mm x 9.14mm thick.

    S3 specs for comparison
    136.6mm x 70.6mm x 8.6mm thick
    and thats a 720p screen.

    This gives HTC some creed back in my book. I dare say that I may even entertain android with those awesome specs. Cannot believe it only has 16gb though. Does HTC no have a way to make a 32gb phone?

    About the only thing that would stop me from this phone as a possibility is the name. Really? Butterfly? WTF. I mean how is that a good name for a piece of tech. Not that ice cream sandwiches are a better alternative, but seriously, how many guys are telling their friends they can't wait to pick up their new butterfly phone?

    Also, good job HTC for making an exciting black phone. The little touches of color really add to the look.


    Bengals suck just as bad as Cleveland so I understand the frustration you Brown fans feel. Hey, at least you beat us this year. Gives you 1 win. :)
    Last edited by power5; 10-17-2012 at 04:06 PM.
    10-17-2012 04:00 PM
  7. Winterfang's Avatar
    HTC J Butterfly is a good name. Since you can call it HTC JB(jelly bean?)
    10-17-2012 06:51 PM
  8. power5's Avatar
    Then your friends snicker under their breath .....butterfly......
    10-17-2012 08:19 PM
  9. PG2G's Avatar
    I hope an 808 version for WP is coming and I bet a version is, but as or right now...the OS is the hold up.
    Just curious, what in the OS is preventing a PureView 808? Windows Phone 8 supports additional processors for imaging. HTC uses them in the Titan 2 as well as the 8X.

    It's just as likely that a 808 isn't out because it is a niche device, not a mass market one.
    10-17-2012 08:24 PM
  10. Winterfang's Avatar
    I think Windows Phone couldn't handle it. So that's why we set our eyes on Windows Phone 8. Then Nokia gave us that other pureview.
    10-17-2012 09:17 PM
  11. ImmortalWarrior's Avatar
    Native code support means apps and software based features are unlimited now. Native code represents the ability for app makers to use C based languages (which essentially compile to Assembly language) which allows for direct custom use of the hardware available (within the security restrictions of course).

    The same reason why Android develops so fast is the same reason why Linux does. Because it is open source. It also means that development can only be controlled so much before you stall it. Optimization planning doesn't go to quickly in open source. That's why features come out fast for Android, but it lags like a baus doing some things. It's also the same reason why Linux can be a fookin' nightmare when things go wrong.

    My buddy just picked up a SG3. Braggin about how fast it was. So there he is, truckin' along through the settings menu, when BAM. Choppy scrolling. Only for a split second, but it was there. Then I notice that it seems to happen frequently, little hiccups here and there. With all that RAM and dual core you would think the phone could be a smooth as my Lumia when navigating OS based menus. (not talkin about apps here)

    For everyone griping about laggy, poorly optimized apps on WP7.5. Yes, they exist. Yes, .NET can be optimized a fair bit, but it is limited to the SDK's capabilities. With the Native code support, these applications for music streaming and such will get exponentially better. When you handle pointers and garbage collection manually and efficiently, sh*t runs smoothly.

    But personally, I don't give two sh*t what apps Apple devices and Android devices have. I don't care for apps really. I'm looking for the type of social and "life" integration that Microsoft is aiming for. Local scout, great idea (NOW GET IT IN CANADA DAMMIT), the coupons and deals, awesome (doubt I will see it in Canada, it's like we are third world up here to these big tech co's for some reason), the Wallet - want, badly (i understand Android had this for some time, the only thing I was jealous of), the smooth interface with immediate live information, the Drive turn by turn (where is the damn My Commute in Canada eh??? Bing has plenty of traffic info up here), a decent music experience (miss an equalizer, but that's what my deck in my car is for).

    Oh, and that screen on the Butterfly (did they make it in Whimsyshire with magic and rainbows? I'm certainly not going to brag to my biker buddies that I got the HTC Butterfly) is overkill. What a waste of pixels. 720p is plenty good on a handheld device. ****, I remember when I was DYING to get a TV that supported it for console video games. Those games were pretty damn clear on those 35 inch TVs (Rogue Leader on Gamecube anyone? lol)
    10-17-2012 11:19 PM
  12. brmiller1976's Avatar
    We all need to go back to Palm OS garnet and be done with it! Just done, I say!
    10-18-2012 12:07 AM
  13. AngryNil's Avatar
    This looks like a beast of a device. Probably going to be annoyingly big, quick note though:

    720p = 1280x720 = 921600
    1080p = 1920x1080 = 2073600

    That S4 Pro is probably necessary to push all those pixels and retain flagship performance.
    10-18-2012 12:58 AM
  14. SnailUK's Avatar
    For the Nth time, this is not yet another discussion about how important display X is, or benchmark that. Its about WP not being in position to handle new hardware features and adding support months later than their competitors. Again its about WP being late to add support for HW features so OEM give their best efforts to other platforms that WILL. We are not talking about weeks later....years later. In other words, OEM will put their latest product on platforms that will support their particular HW and there have been several cases where WP was the stumbling block
    So, in 3 years, Microsoft is expected to catch up with 5 years + of Android development, and start to overtake them?

    Given the pathetic sales of WP7, do you really think Microsoft want to commit the sort of money that would involve? Even if they can overtake on specs, will it matter if there are no apps? How long is it going to be, before theres any real Android apps that really need 1080p?

    Features like this are great for headlines and wi11y waving, but its not the end of the world missing it. Do you really want to be in the situation where you buy a $700 phone, and 3 months later its outdated like on Android? HTC are at the leading edge of Android high end phone creation, and is it helping their bank balance?
    10-18-2012 02:42 AM
  15. AngryNil's Avatar
    Microsoft has unified launches. WP simply can't support brand new chips in the way Android does, which is a manufacturer chucking it on whenever it's ready..

    Good screens aren't only measure by DPI, hence why the 720p SLCD2 and 720p SAmoledHD are totally different monsters.
    Actually, the big problem there is the PenTile nature of the AMOLED screen, which is a problem with subpixels. Still essentially a DPI argument, just SPI (subpixels per inch) instead of PPI (pixels per inch).

    AMOLED also has darker blacks but worse whites (colour reproduction differences).

    How long is it going to be, before theres any real Android apps that really need 1080p?
    This isn't going to happen. The constraint in that sense from a developer's standpoint is no longer the number of pixels, it is the size of the screen. You can't do much with the individual pixels at such high densities. You can't add more precise controls because of the increased PPI, all you add is more detail to the current content.
    Last edited by AngryNil; 10-18-2012 at 05:08 AM.
    10-18-2012 04:58 AM
  16. freestaterocker's Avatar
    In this forum there have been many many discussions and threads talking about the value and need for hardware feature X..and this is not one of them.

    I repeat for the Nth time...this is not a message about the need for HW feature X.

    As Theeman mentioned above:

    "It's funny because its true" ~ homer simpsons



    There is a pink elephant in the room and it's the pace or cadence of WP OS development and it is having a real world impact. I've never seen a track runner catch the leader by running at the same pace (...well, I guess if the leader fell down).

    OEM for the foreseeable future will always try to push hardware specs as a key differentiator and if the underlying OS can't support X feature then guess what...they won't make match their HW with the OS.

    As of Oct/2012 WP can't support 1920x1080,quad-core and etc (plz no arguments about X feature is not needed) so the hardware on this J Butterfly, or LG Optimus G or Nokia 808 isn't even and option. I repeat, OEM putting their latest R&D products on WP is not an option b/c of the OS limitation. I know user X doesn't need feature X for their use case scenario and that's fine. It's about the OEM putting their very best and lastest R&D hardware in the market and installing WP OS on it.

    There is something about the perception about being first to market with hardware feature X. It brands you as a leader and not a 'me too' brand. And as we all know, perceptions becomes reality. MS needs to make sure that whenever a new HW feature coming that they are the primary OS for showcasing that feature and not a 'me too' OS 6 months later.


    MS isn't helping matters with their spin doctoring. They say WP only needs 1 core so that's why there no OS support...so OEM never gave them their best as HW is the only differentiator they have . On their Surface products when questioned about why it doesn't have the resolution similar to an ipad, instead of stating the obvious, they tried to explain that 1366x768 was better than 2048x1536.

    ~ Raise your hand if you think your SD is actually in the real world better than your HDTV or 4K projector.

    ~ Raise your hand again if you think that Surface Gen 2 will have a higher resolution, thus invalidating their claim that higher resolution is not needed?


    Now back to our regularly scheduled show :D
    Why isn't the 808 hardware an option? All it needs is a dedicated imaging chip and the appropriate software patch. HTC added a dedicated imaging chip to achieve faster shots and simultaneous video and stills, and Nokia has special permission to alter the OS. (the only OEM that can) The only reason they haven't put it out yet is they'd be crazy to release a high-end niche device if they're unsure about the potential success/failure of the high-end mainstream device. In other words, if the 900 had sold 3-5 million units in the first few months, the Nokia Lumia 808/828/insert random # here would have been announced in September.
    10-18-2012 06:02 AM
  17. freestaterocker's Avatar
    So my Cleveland Browns have been the dogs of the NFL for the last 13 years and using this logic...Real fans shouldn't voice their opinions about the players,QB,coach,GM and owner as we head to a 1-15 record? I don't buy that. You can be a fan and still not agree with the direction a product/team is going. I love my Honda Accord but wish it would do better on gas...so I guess I am not a true/real Honda fan?
    Voicing your opinion about a product doesn't not always mean you hate it. Heck I criticize my sons effort in soccer last week...should I just go get another son?

    Google controls their branch / fork of Android....Amazon controls theirs, in the arena of phones MS is not competing with vast army of open source zealots with pea shooters. They have a larger employee count than Google...as well as many more layers of management that probably slows things down.

    Trust me, chip-set makers, display manufacturer keep OS vendors in the loop about their future plans years ahead of time (cough roadmaps ) so they would not have a product out there that's not usable by anyone.




    For the Nth time, this is not yet another discussion about how important display X is, or benchmark that. Its about WP not being in position to handle new hardware features and adding support months later than their competitors. Again its about WP being late to add support for HW features so OEM give their best efforts to other platforms that WILL. We are not talking about weeks later....years later. In other words, OEM will put their latest product on platforms that will support their particular HW and there have been several cases where WP was the stumbling block

    Tell me, whats holding up Nokia from releasing the 808 on WP? There is a very specific reason(s) why it hasn't made it to WP as of Nov 2012
    Click to view quoted image


    I hope an 808 version for WP is coming and I bet a version is, but as or right now...the OS is the hold up.

    This is just a list of OEM hardware features that MS was 1 year late on or more
    • SD card support
    • LTE
    • dual-core support
    • non QualComm chipset support ( Exynos, Nvidia Tegra and even crusty old intel )
    • 720 HD, 1080 HD support
    • NFC
    • Bluetooth 3.0/4.0


    I get no one cares about these features and they are irrelevant to 9821% of the people, it's about the OS not being in position to support feature X, so OEM choose other platforms to display their latest and greatest whiz-bang feature

    So all real fans of WP should never voice their opinions about these features being late but just switch vendors? I would argue that REAL Cleveland Browns fans stick with their loser team for 13 straight years instead of becoming ugly Steeler fans :P
    Click to view quoted image
    You criticize your son's soccer performance? Maybe he should get a new dad...
    10-18-2012 06:14 AM
  18. power5's Avatar
    There is such a thing as constructive criticism which is the majority of what we have on WPC.
    10-18-2012 06:55 AM
  19. kg4icg's Avatar
    You know what carrier would be a good fit for this phone if and when it came out wither it be Android or WP8 flavor in it's present form because of a certain deal that is going thru with a Japanese carrier right now?
    10-18-2012 08:15 AM
  20. Heron_Kusanagi's Avatar
    You know what carrier would be a good fit for this phone if and when it came out wither it be Android or WP8 flavor in it's present form because of a certain deal that is going thru with a Japanese carrier right now?
    KDDI isn't Softbank. They are rivals. So...
    10-18-2012 08:19 AM
  21. kg4icg's Avatar
    KDDI isn't Softbank. They are rivals. So...
    Nor is it exclusive to KDDI, they were just the first to say they were going to offer it.
    10-18-2012 08:21 AM
  22. Heron_Kusanagi's Avatar
    Nor is it exclusive to KDDI, they were just the first to say they were going to offer it.
    Still, I think the ball is in HTC's court rather than Sprint.
    10-18-2012 08:52 AM
  23. CSJr1's Avatar
    Phones are just comming out too fast these days. No sooner than I get a chance to enjoy my swoon for the Lumia 920, the LG Optimus G comes out. Then my swoon for the LG is busted by the HTC Butterfly J.

    But since these Butteflies are only indigenous to Japan, I can put my net away.

    However, I guess I need to put my swoon on notice to prepare for the liquid cooled, virtual reality, hyper threading, 1080p smartphone comming out in the next hour.
    Last edited by ebsn; 10-18-2012 at 11:36 AM.
    10-18-2012 09:16 AM
  24. Winterfang's Avatar
    You criticize your son's soccer performance? Maybe he should get a new dad...
    Maybe his son (like Windows Phone) is not playing on the same level of the other kids?
    10-18-2012 10:06 AM
  25. andrelamont's Avatar
    You criticize your son's soccer performance? Maybe he should get a new dad...
    Maybe his son (like Windows Phone) is not playing on the same level of the other kids?
    Must have missed that personal attack, That usually happens when a person has no more arguing options or if they don't like the fact that another 'may'(???) have been right


    I give positive and negative feedback on my sons play. Balance is the key, too much on each end is not healthy.

    I cringe when I watch American Idol at the start and wondered if someone kept telling their child they are a really good singer instead of hurting their feelings and telling them the truth. My daughter can't sing a lick but she is excellent at acting, so guess where I steered her

    Is it really love to lie to someone?



    NOW Back to our original HTC Butterfly Astonishment thread
    10-18-2012 11:41 AM
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