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10-11-2014 10:32 AM
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  1. Jazmac's Avatar
    These car wreck posts are why I am beginning to really dislike coming to WPCentral Forums anymore. Never have I read so much doom and gloom almost everything Microsoft does about on every product they build in ever from what supposed to be members its ecosystem. Just sad and disappointing.
    10-01-2014 12:51 AM
  2. smoledman's Avatar
    I think Windows 10 will be a really good OS for laptops and desktop PCs, but to achieve this MS sacrificed the hybrids and tablets. With Windows 8 they couldn't solve the duality of a convertible device and they privileged the touch interactions. With Windows 10 they couldn't solve it either but now they privileged mouse and keyboard interactions. It seems MS forgot that PCs are just 14% of the devices sold and falling.

    The "Continuum" concept they showed for hybrids like the Surface Pro 3 is ridiculous. The apps run in full screen except for the taskbar that is always visible, so the user has to use those little tiny icons to switch between apps. A back button is added to the taskbar, good luck reaching that small button, and since when Store Apps need a back button? Hybrids are just an afterthought in Windows 10, on the contrary hybrids were the most important form factor for Windows 8.

    And the most worrying thing is the small tablet that they showed in the picture of all the Windows devices. It's just Windows Phone scaled up, with the same three columns of tiles and the three buttons at the bottom. So, Microsoft just killed all the UI interactions that they introduced for tablets with Windows 8: app switching at the left, charms, closing apps swiping down, back button in the apps. It seems tablets will just run a scaled up WP OS.

    From what they showed I think Microsoft is just trying to secure the desktop market for a few more years until more apps come to Chromebooks. The few details about Windows 10 for touch devices are disappointing. I had high expectations for Windows vnext, but what they showed is mediocre, they couldn't came up with a solution for the duality problem and they decided to secure their position in the PC market.

    I guess Surface Pro 4 won't be called a tablet, that "Continuum" abomination is not a touch interface.
    Why don't you wait a little bit before declaring Windows 10 to be "dead"? This is an VERY early build and MS is asking for feedback on things like this. If enough people say that the taskbar should be hidden in "tablet" mode on hybrid device they will do that.
    10-01-2014 01:00 AM
  3. rex.reyesiii's Avatar
    I had no problems with Windows 8/8.1... sooo Zzzz
    Jazmac, xandros9 and Byrese like this.
    10-01-2014 01:02 AM
  4. fis_s's Avatar
    Well, that's true , the touch UI doesn't look good.
    I don't think that any major change would happen
    10-01-2014 02:31 AM
  5. Tyler Swindell's Avatar
    In a few months they have to freeze the development and stabilize the code for release. There is no time for major changes, expect only small tweaks. The final version will be similar to this preview.
    Usually that would be the case. With Windows 8, the first public release was the Windows Developer Preview, they dished out an SDK, and tried to get developers making apps. Then came the Windows Consumer Preview, that was when the UI was mostly finished. After that was the Windows Release Preview.

    Microsoft is ready to listen to feedback this time, and it shows throughout all their actions so far. Windows 10 is built to update from build to build in one click. It also records telemetry data in near real-time, and we've seen it also ask you for your feedback when doing things in Windows.

    They aren't dishing out an SDK to developers, this is more or less the refinement of where Windows 8 was going. They will first and foremost listen to Windows customers about what is wrong, and what they can do to fix it. Once they nail down the functionality and usability perspective of Windows 10, the consumer preview will come out with a Modern 2.0 look, not the developer preview like jmshub said. They showed us the roadmap and developers are last this time, not first.

    Also personally, I don't see a major problem with Continuum, I see how it could be improved, and I see where you're coming from. I like the touch gestures Windows 8 uses on tablets, and the taskbar shouldn't be visible with full-screen apps. But these are small flaws that could easily be reported during feedback of Continuum.

    Continuum could be very useful on tablets like the Surface Pro 3. But tablets like the Surface 2 I think the current start screen fits it the best. A scaled-up Windows Phone start screen might look like a crippled UI on the Surface 2, but a small Lumia tablet the size of the cancelled Surface Mini, I think it would be perfect for that. At the same time, it all has to mesh together, nothing can look too different, just laid out differently. I think it will all come down to what feedback from customers shows, if I'm unhappy with my Surface 2 and others are too, they'll adjust the layout and tweak it more in the next build.
    David_da_Silva and theefman like this.
    10-01-2014 03:14 AM
  6. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    windows 8 releases *complains of lack of desktop stuff*
    windows 10 releases *complains of lack of hybrids and tablets*
    seriously people give credit where due,i think microsoft got windows 10 right and will give the exact marketshare push to windows phone
    its like Return of the Jedi!! balance in the force will now be restored from the evil google (just kidding,dont take it seriously)
    anyways jokes apart i look forward to windows 10
    10-01-2014 03:25 AM
  7. psoham777's Avatar
    Yes from the improvements they have done from wp 8 to 8.1, I wonder what would wp10 be like.
    Microsoft has also done major improvements from Windows 8 to 8.1. Windows 10 is surely going to be a hit....
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    10-01-2014 03:51 AM
  8. David_da_Silva's Avatar
    I just want to shut this website down just because people are not understanding that this is a technical preview and a lot can change. USE USER VOICE and FEEDBACK. Belfiore explained that. My English is not that good for explaining how stupid everything on here are, because as I said, this is not just depending on MS. You have OEM, screen sizes, processors, whatever...
    MS is just presenting something new. I just bet that some weeks ago you people were complaining about no new releases of the OS, no new flagships. STOP
    Jazmac, OwenDL and Byrese like this.
    10-01-2014 07:13 AM
  9. radmanvr's Avatar
    OP just made my morning. Almost choked on my tea. Someone get the OP off stage. Where is Kayne when you need him
    10-01-2014 08:09 AM
  10. MAHER_Central's Avatar
    Most people have desktop PCs. Good thing Windows 10
    10-01-2014 08:11 AM
  11. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    I personally think it's going to be a big hit if they can pull it off. .

    What I don't understand fully is how they are going to make it work seamlessly between a x86 and arm processor.

    Don't both have different code requiments for optimum performance?

    Are they just going to dump tons of code into it, and won't that bog things down more?

    Are they going to need higher specs on arm chipsets to make this work?

    Please forgive my ignorance.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    10-01-2014 08:30 AM
  12. aikidaves's Avatar
    I personally think it's going to be a big hit if they can pull it off. .

    What I don't understand fully is how they are going to make it work seamlessly between a x86 and arm processor.

    Don't both have different code requiments for optimum performance?

    Are they just going to dump tons of code into it, and won't that bog things down more?

    Are they going to need higher specs on arm chipsets to make this work?
    This isn't the greatest description ever, but it's a good start: Architecture of Windows NT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Yes, there's significant work involved in optimizing for each hardware platform, but it isn't anything new. Hardware abstraction is a basic tenet of modern operating system design, and if Microsoft wasn't good at it, I don't think they'd be where they are today.
    10-01-2014 09:02 AM
  13. micallan_17's Avatar
    Since this will be the last major windows release as Microsoft moves to a faster update cycle, we cannot assume that Windows 10 is a disappointment, reason being that Microsoft now embraces customer feedback more than any other of the tech companies out there today. With faster releases Microsoft can change things on the fly which I would think based on customer feedback. This negativity of Windows is dead on arrival or anything Microsoft for the matter has to stop, windows is still here and it's here to stay. From what they showed yesterday I was pretty much blown away, if I wasn't that doesn't mean I will criticize it without even trying it. I reserve judgment until it's closer to release.
    Byrese likes this.
    10-01-2014 09:18 AM
  14. theefman's Avatar
    windows 8 releases *complains of lack of desktop stuff*
    windows 10 releases *complains of lack of hybrids and tablets*
    seriously people give credit where due,i think microsoft got windows 10 right and will give the exact marketshare push to windows phone
    its like Return of the Jedi!! balance in the force will now be restored from the evil google (just kidding,dont take it seriously)
    anyways jokes apart i look forward to windows 10
    May the Windows 10 Force be with you!
    Karthik Naik and xandros9 like this.
    10-01-2014 10:26 AM
  15. neo158's Avatar
    I believe the statement that this TP is late in the development cycle and won't be changed much is incorrect. There were specific things stated in the presentation today about continuum and Belfiore stated it was the way it is now but they are trying a few different directions. This is not your father's Release Candidate. This TP is being released to testers much earlier in the dev cycle than previous versions of Windows. Because corporate IT needs it this way.

    Lots can change, and will. Download it, install it and send MS your opinions.
    I think of the technical preview as being more of a pre, pre-beta version. A little further along than an Alpha but nowhere near the beta stage yet.
    xandros9 likes this.
    10-01-2014 10:41 AM
  16. Brandon Tobias's Avatar
    I think Windows 10 will be a really good OS for laptops and desktop PCs, but to achieve this MS sacrificed the hybrids and tablets. With Windows 8 they couldn't solve the duality of a convertible device and they privileged the touch interactions. With Windows 10 they couldn't solve it either but now they privileged mouse and keyboard interactions. It seems MS forgot that PCs are just 14% of the devices sold and falling.

    The "Continuum" concept they showed for hybrids like the Surface Pro 3 is ridiculous. The apps run in full screen except for the taskbar that is always visible, so the user has to use those little tiny icons to switch between apps. A back button is added to the taskbar, good luck reaching that small button, and since when Store Apps need a back button? Hybrids are just an afterthought in Windows 10, on the contrary hybrids were the most important form factor for Windows 8.

    And the most worrying thing is the small tablet that they showed in the picture of all the Windows devices. It's just Windows Phone scaled up, with the same three columns of tiles and the three buttons at the bottom. So, Microsoft just killed all the UI interactions that they introduced for tablets with Windows 8: app switching at the left, charms, closing apps swiping down, back button in the apps. It seems tablets will just run a scaled up WP OS.

    From what they showed I think Microsoft is just trying to secure the desktop market for a few more years until more apps come to Chromebooks. The few details about Windows 10 for touch devices are disappointing. I had high expectations for Windows vnext, but what they showed is mediocre, they couldn't came up with a solution for the duality problem and they decided to secure their position in the PC market.

    I guess Surface Pro 4 won't be called a tablet, that "Continuum" abomination is not a touch interface.
    you do realize we have several months or more until final release???

    Continuum is a concept that will change based on user feedback an MS said its not ready as yet stop panicking and thinking the worse.
    MS did say we have feedback mechanisms that they would get directly to shape how windows would function and work as in we have some say as to how continuum will look and work ....
    Also continuum will be shaped more by device manufacturers and enterprise as they actually make the devices and know how users should and would like to interact with it. I think its a great idea but the implementation is not there 100% as they kind of defaulted back to Windows 7's scalling up small items way which is a bad way to do it

    MS said consumer features will be discussed next year because modern UI 2.0 and the updated app model will be talked about at build so touch features are not finalized or discussed yet.

    MS is trying to secure the desktop market because businesses and companies don't usually have touch computers or would not like to retrain employees to use windows 8 so they avoided it completely that's why they targeted enterprise with desktop features and focuses less on touch. They did say windows 8 touch features are still there charms, task switching and some others maybe even better new touch features.

    We should remember like BlackBerry MS main focus is Enterprise, corporations and business that buy windows licences in mass volumes that includes OEM's like Dell, HP etc they are priority but consumers also use windows ... which lead MS to the touch and app push that alienated the Enterprise a bit.

    Windows 10 is about balancing the wants and needs of both the Enterprise and Consumers so MS is still working out how the UI will change and grow as they said the charms bar is going to change allot by final release so and so too will the touch UI and desktop UI to an extent its evolving around both consumer and enterprise feedback so if you find something is lacking download the Technical preview and give feedback and don't judge something before its actually completed.

    Ms would not alienate the millions of touch enabled laptops, tablets and hybrid devices windows 8 ushered in.
    Byrese and micallan_17 like this.
    10-01-2014 10:50 AM
  17. micallan_17's Avatar
    you do realize we have several months or more until final release???

    Continuum is a concept that will change based on user feedback an MS said its not ready as yet stop panicking and thinking the worse.
    MS did say we have feedback mechanisms that they would get directly to shape how windows would function and work as in we have some say as to how continuum will look and work ....
    Also continuum will be shaped more by device manufacturers and enterprise as they actually make the devices and know how users should and would like to interact with it. I think its a great idea but the implementation is not there 100% as they kind of defaulted back to Windows 7's scalling up small items way which is a bad way to do it

    MS said consumer features will be discussed next year because modern UI 2.0 and the updated app model will be talked about at build so touch features are not finalized or discussed yet.

    MS is trying to secure the desktop market because businesses and companies don't usually have touch computers or would not like to retrain employees to use windows 8 so they avoided it completely that's why they targeted enterprise with desktop features and focuses less on touch. They did say windows 8 touch features are still there charms, task switching and some others maybe even better new touch features.

    We should remember like BlackBerry MS main focus is Enterprise, corporations and business that buy windows licences in mass volumes that includes OEM's like Dell, HP etc they are priority but consumers also use windows ... which lead MS to the touch and app push that alienated the Enterprise a bit.

    Windows 10 is about balancing the wants and needs of both the Enterprise and Consumers so MS is still working out how the UI will change and grow as they said the charms bar is going to change allot by final release so and so too will the touch UI and desktop UI to an extent its evolving around both consumer and enterprise feedback so if you find something is lacking download the Technical preview and give feedback and don't judge something before its actually completed.

    Ms would not alienate the millions of touch enabled laptops, tablets and hybrid devices windows 8 ushered in.
    This is exactly what Microsoft will be doing, thanks for explaining it

    Cheers
    AR
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    10-01-2014 12:23 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I must be losing my mind. Where did Belfiore mention that tablets and hybrids will be killed off? Let me guess, the OP was walking down the street and found a piece of a blue puzzle.
    xandros9 likes this.
    10-01-2014 12:29 PM
  19. rodan01's Avatar
    Why don't you wait a little bit before declaring Windows 10 to be "dead"? This is an VERY early build and MS is asking for feedback on things like this. If enough people say that the taskbar should be hidden in "tablet" mode on hybrid device they will do that.
    I'm not declaring Windows 10 dead, like I said I think It's a really good OS for PCs. The problem is with hybrids and x86 tablets.

    This "Continuum" feature is not in the preview released today. In the event they showed just a mock-up, not a running software. They could have showed anything, but they chose this particular design, because they think it's the best.
    So, what is the rationale behind this design? They are trying to achieve a touch interface that's the closer possible to Windows 7. Of course they can't keep the start menu because is really hard to navigate those small touch target with the fingers, but to provide familiarity they added part of the start menu in the start screen. They can't keep windowed apps because are hard to organize with the fingers, but they keep the taskbar. So, they are just removing the minimum possible elements that are totally incompatible with touch to adapt Windows 7 to a touch interface.

    What is the alternative? When the user detach the keyboard just switch to an completely alternative interface optimized for touch. The problem with that is they would have again two OSs in the same machine, It's like having Windows 7 with keyboard and Android without keyboard. So, the user experience is jarring, the user have to learn two ways to interact with the device and people get confused.

    So, did Microsoft solve the duality problem with Windows 10? No. Did they added something new? No. They just went to the other extreme, they're forcing Windows 7 to touch devices because most of the Windows users will feel at home. But the experience of the touch interface will be subpar compared to a touch optimized OS.

    The problem is more complex than giving feedback to remove the taskbar. The question is: what is Microsoft trying to achieve? It seems they're designing a desktop OS that can occasionally be used as a tablet.
    Last edited by rodan01; 10-01-2014 at 12:46 PM.
    10-01-2014 12:31 PM
  20. coip's Avatar

    The apps run in full screen except for the taskbar that is always visible, so the user has to use those little tiny icons to switch between apps.
    Windows users have been able to auto-hide the taskbar for a long time now, at least as far back as Windows XP, if I'm not mistaken. I highly doubt that option will be removed in Windows 10.

    However, as a huge fan of some of Windows 8's features--primarily the 1. swipe in from left to quickly swap apps, 2. swipe down to close, and 3. swip in from the right for Charms--I'm a little concerned that some of those features will be removed, but, I'm confident that, with nearly a year to go before release, we'll have plenty of time to give them feedback.
    Karthik Naik and xandros9 like this.
    10-01-2014 01:18 PM
  21. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The problem is more complex than giving feedback to remove the taskbar. The question is: what is Microsoft trying to achieve? It seems they're designing a desktop OS that can occasionally be used as a tablet.
    It seems the public thought Windows 8 was a tablet OS that could sometimes be used on the desktop. The adoption rate was not as healthy as Microsoft would have wanted so a reversal of course would not seem inappropriate. Either way we don't know what Microsoft has up its sleeve, we will know better by sometime next year.
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    10-01-2014 01:53 PM
  22. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    I personally think it's going to be a big hit if they can pull it off. .

    What I don't understand fully is how they are going to make it work seamlessly between a x86 and arm processor.

    Don't both have different code requiments for optimum performance?

    Are they just going to dump tons of code into it, and won't that bog things down more?

    Are they going to need higher specs on arm chipsets to make this work?

    Please forgive my ignorance.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    i used to have the same doubts as you until i discovered hackers(not the malicious kind) managed to run 32-bit x86 coded stuff in the past on the surface RT when windows 8 released
    i can only imagine what microsoft will be able to pull off with full knowledge of their own OS
    10-01-2014 01:54 PM
  23. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    I'm not declaring Windows 10 dead, like I said I think It's a really good OS for PCs. The problem is with hybrids and x86 tablets.

    This "Continuum" feature is not in the preview released today. In the event they showed just a mock-up, not a running software. They could have showed anything, but they chose this particular design, because they think it's the best.
    So, what is the rationale behind this design? They are trying to achieve a touch interface that's the closer possible to Windows 7. Of course they can't keep the start menu because is really hard to navigate those small touch target with the fingers, but to provide familiarity they added part of the start menu in the start screen. They can't keep windowed apps because are hard to organize with the fingers, but they keep the taskbar. So, they are just removing the minimum possible elements that are totally incompatible with touch to adapt Windows 7 to a touch interface.

    What is the alternative? When the user detach the keyboard just switch to an completely alternative interface optimized for touch. The problem with that is they would have again two OSs in the same machine, It's like having Windows 7 with keyboard and Android without keyboard. So, the user experience is jarring, the user have to learn two ways to interact with the device and people get confused.

    So, did Microsoft solve the duality problem with Windows 10? No. Did they added something new? No. They just went to the other extreme, they're forcing Windows 7 to touch devices because most of the Windows users will feel at home. But the experience of the touch interface will be subpar compared to a touch optimized OS.

    The problem is more complex than giving feedback to remove the taskbar. The question is: what is Microsoft trying to achieve? It seems they're designing a desktop OS that can occasionally be used as a tablet.
    this is not an android + keyboard and mouse situation wherein the experience feels a bit lacking(no offense to android etc,just making a point with an example)
    this is a windows 8 + windows 7 experience in one,microsoft understands desktop OS's since years and now is getting touch based stuff right
    by making continuum they will use their knowledge to the fullest and pull off what android tablets and the ipad couldnt ever achieve
    atleast thats what i feel judging by seeing the video and past experiences and the surface series
    why do you doubt microsoft,when windows 8 was launched people complained it was too much of a touch os,now you come along saying its not a touch os and is more of a desktop os
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    10-01-2014 01:59 PM
  24. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    I'm using Windows 10 CTP right now. I also own an SP3 (SP1, SP2 before that) and I'm a heavy Windows 8.x desktop user at both work and home. Before you declare that hybrids and x86 tablets are dead you should know some things...

    1) The Windows 8.1.1 start screen is still there as an option. It doesn't require registry edits or anything like that. It's just a checkbox under the taskbar properties. The fact that they built the option into the UI makes me think they intend for both to be a permanent feature as opposed to something they just haven't removed yet.

    2) Windows Store apps can still be run full screen just like 8.1.1. The taskbar does not appear when the apps are run full screen. The option to also run them maximized or in a window is new, but full screen is an option.

    3) The "tile section" of the new Start Menu is resizable. You can fill it with more tiles and expand it to fill most of the screen if you like. That would make it act like a hybrid between the Start Screen and the Start Menu which might be ideal for hybrid devices.

    Anyway, you should probably hold off on your judgments until you have more info than what you have gathered from looking at a few screen shots.
    10-01-2014 02:05 PM
  25. Jas00555's Avatar
    i used to have the same doubts as you until i discovered hackers(not the malicious kind) managed to run 32-bit x86 coded stuff in the past on the surface RT when windows 8 released
    i can only imagine what microsoft will be able to pull off with full knowledge of their own OS
    I think that was was only for programs written in .NET, and therefore compatible with the WinRT. Microsoft didn't allow it to be installed because then it would create even more confusion to the average consumer "so I can install this program, but not this one?"
    Karthik Naik likes this.
    10-01-2014 02:07 PM
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