02-23-2015 09:25 AM
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  1. EssThree's Avatar
    See, the way I view this image is that all of the important functions are down the bottom. I just jumped onto my sister's iPhone 6 and that button simply takes you to the wishlist, which isn't (in my eyes) a critical function of the app.


    Please Calm down people for all we know the OS is under development. I am sure things will get sorted out over a period of time
    Agreed, we're still in early days. That's why I believe now is the time to voice our opinions; there's a slight chance they will be heard and may somewhat shape further choices on the part of Microsoft's designers :)


    I don't have Windows 10 on my phone, but from what I've seen of the pictures, I think it's great. The regular 8.1 photos app has a bunch of wasted space, and the new design fixes that.
    Well, this certainly is illuminating. Definitely goes to show that there ARE improvements being made to the UI, and I DO applaud Microsoft's designers for that. Thanks for the heads up!

    Honestly, I can't wait to get the preview installed on my phone, just so I can see how it functions in direct use (videos aren't always accurate in showing how it "feels", after all). I'll also be keeping my criticism as constructive as possible. I understand having to design a UI for millions isn't easy. But again, if people stay quiet, how will they be represented? :)
    white_Shadoww and Kram Sacul like this.
    02-16-2015 03:41 AM
  2. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I don't even get the complaint here. I don't know how my hands compare to others, but I think they're on the large side of average, for a guy. The menu button there would be out of the natural reach of my hand, from a single-hand perspective. However, it's just barely. I can still reach the bottom right with my right thumb with ease though, so I don't know why that area's marked "Ow," it seems like a slight inconvenience of flexibility at worst.

    Even then, there's a revelation to be had, in my opinion: WE HAVE TWO HANDS. If I don't like the stretching to the menu button with my right thumb, I'll two-hand the matter and have it resolved in a fraction of a second. I don't need an entire UI change to make it usable. Now, other instances could lead to a desire for change, but in the current WP 8.1 world, they've got the menu expansion often placed at the bottom-right, so it's in the hypothetical "Ow," zone as well. It's just in a different area that's easier for two-hand use, in my opinion. I suppose the "Natural," idea would be to keep the current menu bar at the bottom, but shift it as far left as possible, to try to keep all buttons and icons from the bottom-right, but that it's asymmetrical and awkward in appearance.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    02-16-2015 04:18 AM
  3. M7H's Avatar
    Hahaha, very enjoyable read!.....


    Oh and I'm also left handed, yet i use both hands to do various things on my phone depending on the action, situation, my mood, etc.
    I'm not in here complaining about the lack of left handed features am I?
    I'm left handed too, and also on the 930, actually, that hamburger on the left top is reachable for you and me! Hahaha.
    Maybe they should give the option for a double hamburger menu, for those who are complaining and always whining about everything......
    02-16-2015 05:06 AM
  4. Richard Culverhouse's Avatar
    People seem to be forgetting the important thing here: One UI / system across devices. Want pivet menus on the desktop..? Lol
    Praxius likes this.
    02-16-2015 05:15 AM
  5. raphok's Avatar
    People seem to be forgetting the important thing here: One UI / system across devices. Want pivet menus on the desktop..? Lol
    bring the tablet experience to the desktop was a fail in windows 8... bring the desktop experience to mobile device will be a fail too
    02-16-2015 06:26 AM
  6. manicottiK's Avatar
    It's a hamburger button that opens another screen to perform a function. Feel free to call it what you want though.
    Seriously? The graphic is not a simple three-line image -- there are checkmarks next to each line. Tapping it does not reveal a menu of choices used to navigate around the app. It is simply a button and not a part of what's being debated here. You gave several examples, just one of them was wrong; you don't have to defend it to the death.
    a5cent and TechFreak1 like this.
    02-16-2015 06:34 AM
  7. skinnypig118's Avatar
    People seem to be forgetting the important thing here: One UI / system across devices. Want pivet menus on the desktop..? Lol
    On the contrary, one UI doesn't necessarily mean same controls. Don't forget even Windows 10 on PC has both a desktop mode and a tablet mode and can transition between the two through Continuum. When in desktop mode and the primary input are the keyboard and mouse, yes, pivots might not make a whole lot of sense. However, once you undock and the PC becomes a tablet, the UI *can* change (recall how the start menu grows to full screen). Pivots would work well in tablet mode where the primarily input is touch (and obviously for phone as well); Continuum is how we can keep one UI/system across devices without sacrificing usability.
    02-16-2015 06:36 AM
  8. Praxius's Avatar
    I love the complainers on this thread *cough* Praxius *cough*. Making sure the UX works as well as possible for one handed use does not make it more difficult for two handed use. Are there things that are only going to be done efficiently using two hands? Yes. Doesn't mean they shouldn't strive to make one handed operation as efficient as possible. Not sure why anyone would complain about people wanting the UI/UX to be as useful as possible but I guess a post about 2+2 equaling 4 would have complaining.
    Odd, I'm not the one in here complaining. I'm the one in here pointing out how trivial this hamburger thing is in the grand scheme of things and the real complainers are doing their best to make it out to be more than it is.

    And their best so far just isn't good enough as their complaints and arguments are not really holding up.

    Others in here have already clearly explained why this hamburger menu exists and that is not just for "familiarity" but it exists specifically for the universal app scenario.

    It is designed for PC and Tablet use primarily and since the Universal App proposal is to help developers make One App that works for three systems (PC/Tablet/Phone) which in turn works towards the familiarity factor once again, the benefits of having a hamburger menu for these universal apps far outweigh the minor drawbacks of some people having the trivial inconvenience of having to shift their hand a couple of millimeters so their thumb can reach a button on their giant phones.

    You speak of efficiency and usefulness and yet completely miss the bigger picture of what this means towards efficiency and usefulness for developers trying to make universal apps, which in turn gives them more incentive to make apps for Windows Phones and/or bring their apps over to Windows without having to do piles of work trying to get their apps on three different types of devices.

    Having a UI for tablets and PC's and a different UI for mobiles completely disregards the core concept of universal apps. You might as well go back to the 7.8/8 & 8/8.1/RT days where devs had to do much more work to get their apps over different platforms.

    If getting more people on board with Windows 10 and getting more apps on board for W10 in the future comes at the expense of having a hamburger menu at the top and thus, having to reach a few extra millimeters with my thumb to do something.... So be it.

    Regardless of what they do in the future when W10 is released officially, I won't be *cough**cough*Complaining*cough*
    M7H and RumoredNow like this.
    02-16-2015 06:43 AM
  9. LTTG's Avatar
    If it's possible to swipe instead of tapping the menu then I'm ok with it.
    02-16-2015 06:48 AM
  10. Praxius's Avatar
    Hahaha, very enjoyable read!.....



    I'm left handed too, and also on the 930, actually, that hamburger on the left top is reachable for you and me! Hahaha.
    Maybe they should give the option for a double hamburger menu, for those who are complaining and always whining about everything......
    Yeah, ever notice how the standard three dot menu in the bottom right is a bit out of reach in normal situations?

    Maybe all of us left handers should make a thread and complain like the right handers about the three dot menu and demand they fix it to suit our needs, so we don't have to adjust our positioning of our hands.

    Funny how left handers have been dealing with this sort of stuff all our lives and just learned to adapt in almost complete silence, yet when right handers face these sort of inconveniences, suddenly the world needs to unite and sign petition after petition.... Form protest rallies and burn their bras.

    I mean how dare they be forced to wiggle their fingers a bit further than normal.

    Maybe I've been going about this the wrong way all this time. I should have been protesting the right-handedness of mobile UI's for years an haven't.

    I'm so upset now, I'm going to go write a letter to my local political representative.... No even better: I'm going to write about my disgust on the internet!!

    In all seriousness though, maybe the real solution is for Microsoft and/or Developers to finally introduce a setting where in every app or OS, you can select a setting which chooses a left or right handed layout that will flip top/bottom menus to suit every user.

    ^ That'd be something I don't think Apple or Google offers.
    EssThree likes this.
    02-16-2015 07:03 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    People seem to be forgetting the important thing here: One UI / system across devices. Want pivet menus on the desktop..? Lol
    With windows 10 its not abt phones anymore, universal apps are for tablets and laptops/PCs with mouse. it does make sense to include menus on top for tablet/pc compatibility. now someone had previously suggested to have 2 UIs one for phones with bottom ellipses menu and one for PCs having hamburger at the top, but then that means double the development effort.
    No. This false notion that a UI can't be different on large and small screens, or that differences must unavoidably require devs to do more work, really needs to be trashed. It couldn't be more wrong.

    W10M TP already provides plenty of examples of UI components automatically being adjusted by the OS without the developer having to do anything.

    The side menu (always open on tablets, hidden on phones) or the touch office ribbon (always visible at the top on tablets, hidden in the bottom command bar on phones) are just two examples. There are and will be more.

    As I've said before, W10M needs UI concepts that it can map to different representations and positions, based on screen size. W10M already does that. It just needs to do more of it. That includes the pivot, which doesn't have to look or function like a smartphone pivot on tablets.
    Instead of shoving a tablet UI down desktop user's throats (which is what W8 did), both of you are now proposing to shove a tablet UI down smartphone user's throats. All in the name of consistency across form factors. That's proven itself to be a very bad idea. MS shouldn't repeat that mistake.
    02-16-2015 07:06 AM
  12. M7H's Avatar
    Yeah, ever notice how the standard three dot menu in the bottom right is a bit out of reach in normal situations?
    Yep, it's crap.

    In all seriousness though, maybe the real solution is for Microsoft and/or Developers to finally introduce a setting where in every app or OS, you can select a setting which chooses a left or right handed layout that will flip top/bottom menus to suit every user.

    ^ That'd be something I don't think Apple or Google offers.
    That would be nice indeed!
    EssThree likes this.
    02-16-2015 07:23 AM
  13. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    MS please listen to the people.
    You have to speak to them for them to listen. See my signature, please.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    02-16-2015 07:28 AM
  14. etphoto's Avatar
    I don't care either way as to the location of the hamburger menu. I rarely try to do everything with one hand. However, for those complaining that it is on the top, how often do you use the hamburger menu? Once everything is set, what is the need to go back to the menu with one handed use?
    techiez likes this.
    02-16-2015 08:20 AM
  15. Miguel Correia's Avatar
    I got the post but, how do you really think that your going to get a 6' device and manage it with one hand? Its like buying a tablet and complaining about how people can't task single handed. I have pretty big hands and can't manage a device with one hand that is above 5.5' tops.
    techiez likes this.
    02-16-2015 08:31 AM
  16. skinnypig118's Avatar
    I don't care either way as to the location of the hamburger menu. I rarely try to do everything with one hand. However, for those complaining that it is on the top, how often do you use the hamburger menu? Once everything is set, what is the need to go back to the menu with one handed use?
    They are using the hamburger for navigation, I would imagine that gets used fairly often no?

    I've been advocating for the use of pivots when Windows 10 is in tablet/phone mode, and I still stand by that. However I was talking with my wife about this issue, and she ask me why can't both exist? So that got me thinking, why not?

    Just look at the current OneDrive app, it has pivots and a hamburger. Granted the hamburger there only has accounts actions currently, but imagine if it also contained the actions for navigation (i.e. Files, Photos, Recent, Shared). In desktop mode, there would only be the hamburger menu and people use that to navigate around. When in tablet/phone mode however, the pivots containing the navigation actions would appear in addition to the hamburger menu, and people can use either method to navigate around.

    It would be interesting if MS were to do this and collect some usage data on which method gets used more often. Call me biased but I have a feeling pivots would come out on top, given the choice.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-16-2015 09:00 AM
  17. manicottiK's Avatar
    Yeah, ever notice how the standard three dot menu in the bottom right is a bit out of reach in normal situations?Maybe all of us left handers should make a thread and complain like the right handers about the three dot menu and demand they fix it to suit our needs, so we don't have to adjust our positioning of our hands.
    As a fellow southpaw, let me suggest that you simply tap the left side of the app bar to open it -- it works just like the right side, but doesn't show the three dots.

    Why did you, a fairly sophisticated user (not sarcastic -- most of us arguing about this are pretty deeply involved in our phones) not know about this? Probably for the same reason that I didn't until I read it here two weeks ago. The answer is that this feature is invisible -- there's no visual cue that the app bar would work from the left.

    That's also why many people who have tested user performance at using apps and finding content can demonstrate that hamburger menus are not good for users, despite what the users think of hamburgers. "Regular" users can find the hamburger, they can open the hamburger, but they don't really look around it and try out new items. And they don't do this because the available choices aren't readily apparent when staring at the screen.

    We, pretty much all of us, are not "regular" in this sense. Regular people do well with listbox-based apps because the list items are the UI; tapping a list item drives the user deeper into the content. This navigational model has been tested, it works, the idea is sound. Hamburgers separate content and UI; they makes apps modal and make users think of switching from one mode to another. Yes, they can also provide direct-access to functions without requiring many taps and that's why power users or frequent users of specific apps like them.

    But they are bad for regular users. Regular users don't tap things that they aren't sure of. I remember in the 1980's telling my mother that none of the buttons on the computer actually start a fire or cause anything to explode and that she should feel free to look around and experiment. She still wanted a list of things that she could do and would not try anything new on her own. While most folks today are much, much more accustomed to technology, they are still "most folks" and not "tech-obsessed folks."

    Those who argue here that "hamburger isn't a big deal" really mean "I can handle it, so why the fuss?" The answer is because user experiences should not be designed to depend on the deep knowledge and engagement of sophisticated users like us. We are exactly the wrong people to say "that's obvious." Some of us arguing this point have tested various UIs to see how they impact UX. I can tell you that from our work, hamburgers menus diminish usage for "regular" people while exciting sophisticated users -- the control is polarizing.
    02-16-2015 09:03 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ you can actually tap anywhere on the app bar to open it. When fully minimized it's actually easiest to open single handedly, as swiping up works anywhere across its length.

    People who dare to try, realize it's actually very easy to use single handedly, left or right.
    TechFreak1 and theefman like this.
    02-16-2015 10:59 AM
  19. Visa Declined's Avatar

    Just look at the current OneDrive app, it has pivots and a hamburger. Granted the hamburger there only has accounts actions currently
    From what someone was arguing earlier, a hamburger has to open app settings to fall in line with this current conversation. The pivot in Onedrive performs a separate function than the hamburger, but does a hamburger really have to perform a settings function to be considered a hamburger? It sounds ridiculous because it is. It has been argued that users never know what a hamburger button will do, it is used as a universal catch-all that is considered lazy in app design. When you see it, you know that it does something, but you have to press it to find out.
    EssThree likes this.
    02-16-2015 11:36 AM
  20. manicottiK's Avatar
    Part of what's going on in this and other hamburger-related threads is that we're all recognizing that there's less agreement and consistency -- and thus less "common knowledge" -- about "hamburger menus" than many of us assume. I've heard varying degrees of argument that the "purpose" of a hamburger is to: 1) access less-frequently used functions, 2) access settings, 3) replace tabs, or 4) provide for almost all aspects of app navigation. Given that the hamburger is visible at all times and on all pages, #1 and #2 make little sense to me (why give up prime on-screen real estate to things that are NOT used often). The only difference between #3 and #4 is whether the menu contains only top-level choices (#3) or also provides direct access to more of the functions of the app (#4).

    So, before one can decide whether or not they like the idea of hamburgers, one has to know what the like/dislike choice brings. If hamburger is supposed to be #4 above, there's research to say that regular users can be harmed while power users are helped.
    02-16-2015 12:04 PM
  21. Laurman's Avatar
    Hamburger for settings is waste of space. I find that settings button doesn't need to be always visible, since you don't use it daily. It is pretty much one time thing, you set your app up and leave it like that.
    For maintaining similar interface across devices I'd propose that mobile apps would have old w8.1 desing pattern and special header (which is not shown in mobile devices) with hambruger or clickable buttons when they're used on computer.
    02-16-2015 12:22 PM
  22. rhapdog's Avatar
    If Windows 10 universal apps will get us up to par with quality apps available on other platforms and increase the market share, then I won't be complaining about how they got it there. "If..."
    techiez and EssThree like this.
    02-16-2015 06:47 PM
  23. Praxius's Avatar
    As a fellow southpaw, let me suggest that you simply tap the left side of the app bar to open it -- it works just like the right side, but doesn't show the three dots.

    Why did you, a fairly sophisticated user (not sarcastic -- most of us arguing about this are pretty deeply involved in our phones) not know about this? Probably for the same reason that I didn't until I read it here two weeks ago. The answer is that this feature is invisible -- there's no visual cue that the app bar would work from the left.

    That's also why many people who have tested user performance at using apps and finding content can demonstrate that hamburger menus are not good for users, despite what the users think of hamburgers. "Regular" users can find the hamburger, they can open the hamburger, but they don't really look around it and try out new items. And they don't do this because the available choices aren't readily apparent when staring at the screen.

    We, pretty much all of us, are not "regular" in this sense. Regular people do well with listbox-based apps because the list items are the UI; tapping a list item drives the user deeper into the content. This navigational model has been tested, it works, the idea is sound. Hamburgers separate content and UI; they makes apps modal and make users think of switching from one mode to another. Yes, they can also provide direct-access to functions without requiring many taps and that's why power users or frequent users of specific apps like them.

    But they are bad for regular users. Regular users don't tap things that they aren't sure of. I remember in the 1980's telling my mother that none of the buttons on the computer actually start a fire or cause anything to explode and that she should feel free to look around and experiment. She still wanted a list of things that she could do and would not try anything new on her own. While most folks today are much, much more accustomed to technology, they are still "most folks" and not "tech-obsessed folks."

    Those who argue here that "hamburger isn't a big deal" really mean "I can handle it, so why the fuss?" The answer is because user experiences should not be designed to depend on the deep knowledge and engagement of sophisticated users like us. We are exactly the wrong people to say "that's obvious." Some of us arguing this point have tested various UIs to see how they impact UX. I can tell you that from our work, hamburgers menus diminish usage for "regular" people while exciting sophisticated users -- the control is polarizing.
    I'm on my phone at lunch drinking with my right hand and typing with my left thumb on my 930, so I won't attempt to snip your quote.

    I am aware that the menu can be activated by the left side and you don't have to reach all the way over to the right in most apps, however some of the apps I use the most don't allow this.

    Perfect case in point is Internet Explorer which is where I am typing right now. If I touch the left side, regardless of how accurate I am avoiding the tab button, I still hit the tab button..... Or I hit the URL section. I must reach all the way to the right to get the menu to pop up.

    Because of this example and others, I just grew accustomed to just doing it for every app with the three dot menu, even when I don't have to.

    In the same argument against the hamburger menu being "not good for users" the same can be said about the three dot menu. It works for some but not all depending on left or right handedness and app design..... And the hamburger menu doesn't work for some people with big phones and small hands.

    As a left hander, the hamburger menu won't be an issue for me.... But I am aware that it can be for others.

    In saying that, I still don't see why others can't just learn to adapt. I and many others have adapted due to being left handed, so why can't others adapt?

    Why should they have to adapt in the first place??

    Well, why should I?
    techiez likes this.
    02-16-2015 06:53 PM
  24. Alain_A's Avatar
    Why should they have to adapt in the first place??
    Well, why should I?
    because that's the future...
    02-16-2015 06:59 PM
  25. ohgood's Avatar
    hey OP, the swipe chart was a very good example of why upper left controls suck. good job.

    but the defensive comments in favor of poor user interface choices ....

    it's like defending a car company's choice of putting the windshield wipe control switch on the right front bumper. sure, you can turn on the wipers anytime you want, just stop, get out, walk around the car, reach under the bumper, and press the waterproof switch. simple !

    ​makes one's head spin
    EssThree likes this.
    02-16-2015 07:34 PM
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