10-29-2015 07:57 AM
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  1. hagjohn's Avatar
    At the moment, Windows 10 is a mess. It's cluttered and messy looking. They have a lot of work ahead of them but sometimes Microsoft doesn't always care about the aesthetics (of the OS), like they should. The whole OS is looking more like 7.10 instead of 10. I'm concerned with what I see so far for touch screens. The start screen is a horrible mess, with part of the start menu in it. There are some good things. Cortana, universal apps (once they come) and the store beta is looking promising. Windows Phone 10, well, I need to play with it before I comment too much about it.

    BTW, if you have iOS or Android, you can be using the new Outlook app now. Of course, us Windows phone folks have to wait.
    Last edited by hagjohn; 01-31-2015 at 07:10 AM.
    luisfarelo likes this.
    01-31-2015 06:55 AM
  2. portalfocus's Avatar
    Yeah I don't understand the hamburger menu. I'm holding my phone with my right hand and my thumb cannot easily reach either corner of the screen, particularly hard to reach the top left corner (without the palm of my hand getting close enough to the bottom right to screw up what I'm trying to do). Hey, you know those handy menus and buttons on the bottom? Yeah let's move them so they're always inconvenient to access.
    Have you use the new Spotify App?. You are able to just swipe to the left to Access to the settings without having to actually touch the circle-hamburguer menu
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 08:40 AM
  3. portalfocus's Avatar
    OneDrive UI may be the best solution, or maybe adding an option to swipe right to own the menu.
    This.
    01-31-2015 08:45 AM
  4. portalfocus's Avatar
    You want horrid design direction? YouTube. The app on wii-u has a different UI than the app on windows and the website..... They all function differently and it's quite irritating. Consistent UI across the board is the way to go. Just add bits and pieces of visual flair unique to each platform and be done with it. Btw you guys make it sound like hamburger menu is an Android invention..... News flash, it ain't.

    Well said.
    01-31-2015 08:54 AM
  5. Godson Arun Kumar's Avatar
    Surprised people here are finding such a small change so difficult to acclimatize to. Wonder how you people switched over to windows phone in the first place. Each person has his own tastes. An OS can only be made to a general taste of the public and not to individual people. Such people are better off getting into tech and developing their own OSes and apps for their liking.
    techiez and Brandon Tobias like this.
    01-31-2015 09:03 AM
  6. dKp1977's Avatar
    Have you use the new Spotify App?. You are able to just swipe to the left to Access to the settings without having to actually touch the circle-hamburguer menu
    That depends on the dev to implement this particular way to access the menu though. If he doesn't, you simply have to use the button. But I don't get people complaining about accessibility of navigation items on huge phones. I got myself a 1520 a year ago, knowing that it's a flipping huge device, hence not always be comfortable to use one handed. These devices simply aren't meant to be used single handedly. Even though a UI should be designed with ease of use in mind, designers can't be held responsible for people with small hands purchasing devices that are too huge for their hands.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 09:44 AM
  7. manicottiK's Avatar
    Surprised people here are finding such a small change so difficult to acclimatize to.
    People unhappy about the apparent changes aren't saying that they can't acclimate, but rather that some characteristics of the new way reduce usability and convenience.

    For the sake of argument: in the Windows Phone 8 email message list page, there's a button bar at the bottom of the screen containing buttons for new message, select messages, refresh, and search. On Windows 10, that bar is at the top and contains hamburger, new message and search buttons. When a user wants to create or find a message, which button placement is more convenient? Pretty much everyone will agree that both can be used, but the one at the bottom is easier when using the phone one-handed.

    That bottom placement puts the app buttons near the hardware buttons for Back, Home, and Search, minimizing hand movement and stretching/covering the screen with our hands. Fun fact: in WP7 and 8, the app bar ALWAYS stays near the hardware buttons, regardless of whether you turn the phone to the left or the right when going into landscape. That prior attention to user experience (keeping the controls together for single-handed use and general user convenience) is what some of us worry about given the early app previews that we've seen so far.

    Sure, these aren't final apps, but the direction appears to favor consistency of design over usability. It's a slavish devotion to how something looks rather than how it works -- it is form over function. But it's fixable.

    User interfaces that are aware of the size of the object being used can be intelligently adjusted to facilitate use. Developers, although not enough of them, already do this to handle landscape layouts on phones. There's no reason why an app couldn't be smart enough to move the buttons to the bottom. Hell, I'd even go so far as to make it optional and have an OS setting for "Button bar placement" where the choices are "Phone optimized" or "Match tablet". Then, that would give MS another marketing plug -- that apps on their platform can adjust for users.
    a5cent, iesel, sahib lopez and 2 others like this.
    01-31-2015 11:12 AM
  8. luke_f's Avatar
    The whole Windows 10 thing was about listening to customer feedback (as opposed to how it was done with Windows 8). This is once again a case where most of the customers seem to favor a different UI strategy. MS should listen to that. I don't care so much about design, but I care a lot about usability. And I see problems with usability if important functions are moved away from my thumb.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 11:18 AM
  9. tiziano27's Avatar
    For the sake of argument: in the Windows Phone 8 email message list page, there's a button bar at the bottom of the screen containing buttons for new message, select messages, refresh, and search. On Windows 10, that bar is at the top and contains hamburger, new message and search buttons. When a user wants to create or find a message, which button placement is more convenient? Pretty much everyone will agree that both can be used, but the one at the bottom is easier when using the phone one-handed.
    In the email app, when the user activate the command to create a new message, or open the search functionality, the next step is typing, that generally is done with two hands. For the Select functionality the user also needs the other hand to reach the first message of the list in big phones.
    So, the impact of having the buttons at the top is insignificant.

    People should use the preview before whinning.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 11:54 AM
  10. manicottiK's Avatar
    Having read many of your other comments on these Win10 threads, I suspect that we're going to have to agree to disagree, but here's a weirdly agreeable rebuttal to your reply.

    In the email app, when the user activate the command to create a new message, or open the search functionality, the next step is typing, that generally is done with two hands.
    Agreed! Fortunately, both of those hands are already going to be at the bottom of the screen, where the New Message button was and where the keyboard will appear. Further, shape writing makes it pretty easy to "type" one-handed on 4"-5" devices.

    For the Select functionality the user also needs the other hand to reach the first message of the list in big phones.
    The checkbox-select function in WP7/8 was never terribly elegant, mostly because left-right swipes were for changing panels and up/down for scrolling. However, despite this inelegant solution, a function of the large headers in WP7 and WP8 was that the first item in a list started lower on the screen, making it easier to reach with the hand holding the phone (but not really on a phablet). It's the quest for greater information density that is shrinking headers and driving the top of the list toward the top of the screen and out of the normal reach of a thumb attached to the hand holding the phone.

    (Now that I think of it, moving the button bar to the bottom in the coming "small headers" design will make reaching the tops of lists even harder. This is why user interfaces need to be tested to see what user experiences they create. People who beat up MS for "giant headers that do nothing" simply didn't understand that they did something really important -- they preserved reachability despite increasing screen size.

    So, the impact of having the buttons at the top is insignificant.
    I think that your comments about the keyboard and the top of the list ague for the older design. Welcome aboard!

    People should use the preview before whinning.
    That's true for some of what's posted, but it's the very much the wrong verb for a lot of the commentary from A5cent, Spaulagain, me, and others. Here's how you can tell:
    Whining: to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.
    Critiquing: evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way.

    Now, although my tongue was in my cheek for much of that, the point stands that there are valid arguments to be had about what we've seen (and even pencil-drawn mockups). Of course, there are invalid arguments, too. Let's try to avoid the latter ones.
    tiziano27, iesel, a5cent and 3 others like this.
    01-31-2015 12:55 PM
  11. FAHMI BASSEM's Avatar
    One unfortunate consequence of the side-swipe to delete is that it seems to be incompatible with the panorama view concept, which uses side swipe to go to the next 'tab'. I really liked that concept and Microsoft's renderings showing the 'width' of an app. Is the Panorama control going to be discontinued, or is it just that MS has decided to stop using it in some of their own apps?

    Attachment 95308
    I really afraid that MS is going to kill WP UI, panorama is one of our elements which is really creative-in my opinion- + the current MARK function-tap on the edge to mark multiple items- is much better that swipe to delete or flag
    01-31-2015 01:48 PM
  12. tiziano27's Avatar
    Agreed! Fortunately, both of those hands are already going to be at the bottom of the screen, where the New Message button was and where the keyboard will appear. Further, shape writing makes it pretty easy to "type" one-handed on 4"-5" devices.
    Probably your brain is going to rewire and find a new optimal sequence of movements. For example, tapping the new message button with the index finger of the other hand, and then let that hand fall right into position for thumb-type.
    I had not tried the swipe keyboard with one hand. It's ok, but I don't think that's a popular way to type.

    I really don't think single handed use is so important for smartphones to optimize the whole UI for that. The back button (sorry iphone) and content in tabs that can be navigated dragging pixels in any part of the screen, is good enough for consumption with one hand. For content creation buttons are more important, but people generally use both hands in those scenarios, so It's not a big deal if they are at the top.

    That's true for some of what's posted, but it's the very much the wrong verb for a lot of the commentary from A5cent, Spaulagain, me, and others. Here's how you can tell:
    Whining: to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.
    Critiquing: evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way.

    Now, although my tongue was in my cheek for much of that, the point stands that there are valid arguments to be had about what we've seen (and even pencil-drawn mockups). Of course, there are invalid arguments, too. Let's try to avoid the latter ones.
    I'm not reading any deep analysis about UI design here. Probably because none of us is an expert in the subject. I'm aware of the naivety of my arguments, probably the other guys too. Trying to obtain conclusion from naive and shallow analysis, without even using the product, and then complaining with a little bitterness, could be described figuratively as whining. :)
    01-31-2015 03:29 PM
  13. manicottiK's Avatar
    I'm not reading any deep analysis about UI design here.
    The fact that you keep returning to UI instead of UX reveals that you might be reading, but you either aren't getting it (unlikely, I think) or don't accept it (seems likely). Either way, I don't think that much more can be gained from this discussion (the larger one, not just between us) so I'm checking out unless I see some substantial shift toward why one UI might lead to a better or worse UX than another.
    01-31-2015 05:01 PM
  14. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    I wish if UI design was so simple as you put :)
    Your if else will double the effort for developer and he would nt care to develop for windows at all
    All the more reason they didn't make it different from the desktop version. Same code, same layout.
    techiez and Brandon Tobias like this.
    01-31-2015 08:03 PM
  15. Soble's Avatar
    Zune HD and WP7 was Awesome.
    psiu_glen likes this.
    01-31-2015 08:14 PM
  16. iice cage's Avatar
    I like the new design of windows,10 for phone... Windows phone 8 are just textblocks that drops unto mainpage thats it.
    Montpbm and Brandon Tobias like this.
    01-31-2015 08:16 PM
  17. spaulagain's Avatar
    This is like the most #firstworldproblem thing I've ever heard.
    No, it's straight up usability issues. UX design is extremely important in today's market, and the 3 dot menu on the bottom right (the easiest corner to access) is far more reachable and efficient then the damn hamburger icon. There is a reason why Apple went through all that extra effort to develop a secondary UI function for large screen devices where users can't reach the top left.

    I'm really excited for Windows 10, but so far the UI has been trashed and changed just for the sake of change, or mimicking others. When instead they should have taken the valuable experiences they already have, and enhanced them.

    I really hope they turn this around before release.
    01-31-2015 08:29 PM
  18. drachen23's Avatar
    I wish if UI design was so simple as you put :)
    Your if else will double the effort for developer and he would nt care to develop for windows at all
    MS actually made it pretty easy with universal apps. Most programming these days separates the code that actually does app stuff (like getting data from the cloud, processing things, arranging data to be displayed on the screen) from the layout files that control how the data looks on screen. In universal apps, there is one shared project file of important code and two app projects, one for Windows and the other for Windows Phone. People are doing this right now. You can share the same layout or use a different layout for each. The important code in the shared project is always the same. MS also supports having the layout change based on the width of the screen with only one layout file. You can see this right now. A lot of apps change their layout when you snap them to a different width in Win 8.1, like Twitter. This sort of stuff is already built in and people are using it now.

    That's why a lot of us app dev and UX guys on this site and elsewhere are so mystified by what we see.
    01-31-2015 09:57 PM
  19. Jas00555's Avatar
    No, it's straight up usability issues. UX design is extremely important in today's market, and the 3 dot menu on the bottom right (the easiest corner to access) is far more reachable and efficient then the damn hamburger icon. There is a reason why Apple went through all that extra effort to develop a secondary UI function for large screen devices where users can't reach the top left.

    I'm really excited for Windows 10, but so far the UI has been trashed and changed just for the sake of change, or mimicking others. When instead they should have taken the valuable experiences they already have, and enhanced them.

    I really hope they turn this around before release.
    95% of the mobile phone market uses a hamburger menu and I have yet to hear of an outbreak of Strained Thumb Syndrome, so it's a pretty ridiculous thing to complain about IMHO.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 11:44 PM
  20. spaulagain's Avatar
    95% of the mobile phone market uses a hamburger menu and I have yet to hear of an outbreak of Strained Thumb Syndrome, so it's a pretty ridiculous thing to complain about IMHO.
    The point isn't that others do it so it must be ok. The point is the current method is actually a better UX. And considering Apple has specifically addressed this issue as I mentioned above, I'd hardly say the rest of the market is ignoring/dismissing that the issue exists.

    And Android is certainly not the OS to model UI after. Up until Material Design, their entire UI was horrible.

    Also, a hamburger icon menu access isn't so bad if you can access it by just swiping to the right like in panorama. And/Or, you can put the icon on the right like the Facebook app does and a website I made does as well.
    a5cent and sahib lopez like this.
    01-31-2015 11:49 PM
  21. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Microsoft's biggest enemy isn't Google or Apple, it's their own fanbase that's never happy.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 11:55 PM
  22. Jas00555's Avatar
    .

    Also, a hamburger icon menu access isn't so bad if you can access it by just swiping to the right like in panorama. And/Or, you can put the icon on the right like the Facebook app does and a website I made does as well.
    Ok, then what's the problem then? If you're able to get to it by swiping to the right, I really don't understand what the problem is.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 11:57 PM
  23. spaulagain's Avatar
    Ok, then what's the problem then? If you're able to get to it by swiping to the right, I really don't understand what the problem is.
    If that's the case, its fine. From what we've seen so far, that's not the case. Although right side is still better to be able to click the menu items. In general, I don't have an issue with the hamburger icon. I use it myself because it has become an industry norm.

    What I do have an issue with, is its placement and accessibility. With the 5-5.5" screen becoming the norm for smartphones, that one handed capability is ever more important because the top left corner is so hard to get.
    wpn00b, a5cent and sahib lopez like this.
    02-01-2015 12:00 AM
  24. spaulagain's Avatar
    Microsoft's biggest enemy isn't Google or Apple, it's their own fanbase that's never happy.
    This isn't just some fanboism crap. This is usability practice. People completely outside of the MS fanboy group like Brad Frost and Luke Wroblewski have mentioned this many a time in UX design conferences, blog posts, etc.

    It just so happens that Microsoft built a well designed UI with WP8 and now their loyal users want it to stay well designed. We don't want a me too OS to replace it.

    Anyways, WP's issues are not the UI, they are missing features and apps. The UI is pretty solid and has set the pattern that Apple and Google have followed suite with (kind of).
    wpn00b, manicottiK, a5cent and 2 others like this.
    02-01-2015 12:06 AM
  25. wpn00b's Avatar
    The point isn't that others do it so it must be ok. The point is the current method is actually a better UX. And considering Apple has specifically addressed this issue as I mentioned above, I'd hardly say the rest of the market is ignoring/dismissing that the issue exists.
    All of this even the part I didn't quote. I just wanted to say that although Apple did address it, I don't find it elegant. It definitely works though. But the bottom right "ellipsis" menu is far better. A complete paradigm shift would be to allow that to be configured to the left side for lefties. I mean... Those weird scissors in elementary school worked well so why not in the digital realm?
    02-01-2015 12:20 AM
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