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10-29-2015 07:57 AM
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  1. neo158's Avatar
    That Windows 10 for phones Outlook screenshot looks an awful lot like the recent Microsoft Outlook preview app on Android, not that it's a bad thing though as we are now seeing what their purchase of accompli is bringing to WP users.

    Personally, I'm going to wait and see what Windows 10 for phones brings in terms of functionality. It seems to me that it's a lot of the hardcore WP fans that are complaining the most about the interface, I consider myself to be in the hardcore fans group having used WP since its initial release but I'm willing to wait for the preview before passing judgement on the UI.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    02-02-2015 03:35 PM
  2. Legoboyii's Avatar
    I personally never one hand my Lumia unless it was absolutely necessary
    I honestly don't care about the hamburger button all that much, it's not just an android thing as some have pointed out.
    Although a swipe to the left would be nice; I liked the panorama/hub design windows phone uses, and of course.. the tiles.
    Hated icons, dreadfully boring and stale if you ask me. While on my Lumia, I can customize the start screen however I like, move tiles where ever I want, etc...
    I only care for a few things, like wi-fi direct and otg which would be handy, and I REALLY want MS to bring Hubs back PLEASE!
    My favorite compromise would be the current OneDrive UI
    Brings the "hamburger button" which few of us like but would help people come over, but also has the panorama style integrated. This Hybrid would be the best of both worlds I suppose, would appease most users... I hope.

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love windows phones :D
    I plan to sink with the ship if it comes to that, although with Windows 10, here's hoping it wont!
    02-02-2015 03:54 PM
  3. manicottiK's Avatar
    As we ponder the issue of Metro's future, it's worth remembering that it already took a giant step backward with Windows 8.

    Back in the WP7 days, the Metro principles were as follows: Clean, Light, Open, Fast; Celebrate Typography; Alive In Motion; Content, Not Chrome; and Authentically Digital.

    When Windows 8 and WP8 came out, those principles changed to: Pride In Craftsmanship; Do More With Less; Fast And Fluid; Authentically Digital; and Win As One.

    One could maybe argue that a few of those are simply wording changes. Maybe Fast And Fluid is the new Alive In Motion and Do More With Less is the new Content, Not Chrome. (Certainly Authentically Digital is the same on both lists.) But the WP7 ideas of Clean, Light, Open, and Fast and Celebrate Typography don't exist in the Win8 version while Win As One isn't in the old list.

    Certainly, the current trend toward higher information density works against any idea that our apps should be Clean, Light, or Open.
    02-02-2015 05:53 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    I mean limiting from a UI perspective. You were stating that that style was part of what specifically defined Metro and that without it, Metro wasn't really Metro.

    My point was that from a developers perspective, it was a very limiting UI pattern. So yes, they already started using other patterns for navigation. Which is why I'm saying that Metro lives on even without that UI pattern.
    I would categorize traits like "being flat", "making limited use of colors", and being "unapologetically digital" as stylistic in nature. I think Metro could completely reverse all those things and still be entirely Metro at heart. These I'd call stylistic traits. All style, just looks, no substance.

    Other traits like "content over chrome", "bold typography rather than buttons (which emphasize navigation through swiping rather than tapping)", "consistency between OS and apps (enabled by a very well designed UI library that still allows developers to stray from the standards as much as they want to)" are substantial traits. These things influence how an OS and its apps are used rather than just how they look. They contribute to the "feel" of the UI. If I understand you correctly, you're saying these basic principles were limiting factors in WP's UI, but IMHO all of these basic principles are far too abstract to be limiting. Am I really understanding you correctly here?

    IMHO WP was not denied a standardized and good navigational solution because of these principles, but despite them. While Apple and Google were discussing and standardizing on how side panels should or should not be used, WP just sat there with nothing but a Hub control (which is very much limited to browsing images), with no guidance coming from MS at all. I'm pretty sure there are at least a few viable approaches to navigation that don't contradict any of those most substantial of Metro's principles, don't you?
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-03-2015 at 12:40 AM. Reason: spelling
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    02-02-2015 06:16 PM
  5. manicottiK's Avatar
    One of the complaints that I hear of WP app navigation is the in-out page model that doesn't permit (or facilitate) random jumps from page to page. Because navigation in WP is based on content on pages, users go deeper and deeper in to the app and then back out before branching off in a new direction. Hamburger menus with rich contents break that model by allowing navigation to anywhere from anywhere, which can also lead to large "back stacks." That in-out navigational model seems reasonable for fairly simple apps on a phone. I'm not sure that it's the best model for tablet-based navigation, but I don't have a suggestion.

    Thoughts???
    02-02-2015 08:00 PM
  6. aolbfs's Avatar
    I actually like where Nadella is taking Microsoft. I like what I've seen of Windows 10 and I think HoloLens will be absolutely excellent when we can get the headsets.
    tiziano27 likes this.
    02-02-2015 08:21 PM
  7. Lumiaddict's Avatar
    I use both hands to operate my phone. The buttons being placed at the top isnt a concern and shouldnt be for anyone unless youre worried about doing things on your phone while youre driving. Stop with all the childish whining.....dont like it? Go get another phone....W10 for phones will be a welcomed change. As long as it continues to operate buttery smooth
    tiziano27 likes this.
    02-02-2015 08:40 PM
  8. tiziano27's Avatar
    I would categorize traits like "being flat", "making limited use of colors", and being "unapologetically digital" as stylistic in nature. I think Metro could completely reverse all those things and still be entirely Metro at heart. These I'd call stylistic traits. All style, just looks, no substance.

    Other traits like "content over chrome", "bold typography rather than buttons (which emphasize navigation through swiping rather than tapping)", "consistency between OS and apps (enabled by a very well designed UI library that still allows developers to stray from the standards as much as they want to)" are substantial traits. These things influence how an OS and its apps are used rather than just how they look. They contribute to the "feel" of the UI. If I understand you correctly, you're saying these basic principles were limiting factors in WP's UI, but IMHO all of these basic principles are far too abstract to be limiting. Am I really understanding you correctly here?

    IMHO WP was not denied a standardized and good navigational solution because of these principles, but despite them. While Apple and Google were discussing and standardizing on how side panels should or should not be used, WP just sat there with nothing but a Hub control (which is very much limited to browsing images), with no guidance coming from MS at all. I'm pretty sure there are at least a few viable approaches to navigation that don't contradict any of those more substantial of Metro's principles, don't you?


    You call "being flat", "making limited use of colors", and being "unapologetically digital" as stylistic. Conversely, "content over chrome", "bold typography rather than buttons" as substantial.
    That doesn't make sense, "content over chrome" is flat design. Chrome is adornment used to help identify UI elements, for example shadows, borders and gradients to identify a button, a menu bar, or a title.
    Typography (different font sizes and alignments) is also flat design, an alternative solution that replace chrome and color as the way to differentiate UI elements.

    Then you say, "consistency between OS and apps (enabled by a very well designed UI library that still allows developers to stray from the standards as much as they want to)"
    How can you have consistency if the developers can do whatever they want? Or how can you have consistency if the apps have disparate navigation models?

    I think you're trying to talk of something you don't understand well.
    02-02-2015 08:44 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    One of the complaints that I hear of WP app navigation is the in-out page model that doesn't permit (or facilitate) random jumps from page to page. Because navigation in WP is based on content on pages, users go deeper and deeper in to the app and then back out before branching off in a new direction. Hamburger menus with rich contents break that model by allowing navigation to anywhere from anywhere, which can also lead to large "back stacks." That in-out navigational model seems reasonable for fairly simple apps on a phone. I'm not sure that it's the best model for tablet-based navigation, but I don't have a suggestion.

    Thoughts???
    Agreed, but there is nothing forcing you into hierarchical navigation in a WinRT (phone or tablet) app. MS explicitly mentions both hierarchical and flat navigational patterns here.

    I recently built a WP app using a flat navigation pattern for my fiance. No big deal.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-02-2015 at 11:45 PM. Reason: last scentence
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    02-02-2015 08:44 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    I think you're trying to talk of something you don't understand well.
    Please don't project your own difficulties on me. Your definition of "chrome" is just one of many many examples of things you've shown to incorrectly "understand". Those many misunderstandings add up.

    Chrome:
    "The visible graphical interface features of an application are sometimes referred to as "chrome" or "Gui"
    source
    The word is completely unrelated to gradients, shadows, or not being flat. The term "content over chrome" pertains to moving any non essential UI elements out of the way (possibly hiding them), so as to provide more space for content.

    I think you're providing a good demonstration of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-02-2015 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Decided I needed to explain my opinion rather than just state it
    Laura Knotek and sahib lopez like this.
    02-02-2015 08:47 PM
  11. spaulagain's Avatar
    One of the complaints that I hear of WP app navigation is the in-out page model that doesn't permit (or facilitate) random jumps from page to page. Because navigation in WP is based on content on pages, users go deeper and deeper in to the app and then back out before branching off in a new direction. Hamburger menus with rich contents break that model by allowing navigation to anywhere from anywhere, which can also lead to large "back stacks." That in-out navigational model seems reasonable for fairly simple apps on a phone. I'm not sure that it's the best model for tablet-based navigation, but I don't have a suggestion.

    Thoughts???
    Ya, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The was an element of the original Metro standard UI that was different and interesting, but ultimately leads to a less flexible UI. This UI pattern could not stand the test of time and that's why we see it being phased out in 10.
    02-02-2015 09:34 PM
  12. spaulagain's Avatar
    I would categorize traits like "being flat", "making limited use of colors", and being "unapologetically digital" as stylistic in nature. I think Metro could completely reverse all those things and still be entirely Metro at heart. These I'd call stylistic traits. All style, just looks, no substance.

    Other traits like "content over chrome", "bold typography rather than buttons (which emphasize navigation through swiping rather than tapping)", "consistency between OS and apps (enabled by a very well designed UI library that still allows developers to stray from the standards as much as they want to)" are substantial traits. These things influence how an OS and its apps are used rather than just how they look. They contribute to the "feel" of the UI. If I understand you correctly, you're saying these basic principles were limiting factors in WP's UI, but IMHO all of these basic principles are far too abstract to be limiting. Am I really understanding you correctly here?

    IMHO WP was not denied a standardized and good navigational solution because of these principles, but despite them. While Apple and Google were discussing and standardizing on how side panels should or should not be used, WP just sat there with nothing but a Hub control (which is very much limited to browsing images), with no guidance coming from MS at all. I'm pretty sure there are at least a few viable approaches to navigation that don't contradict any of those more substantial of Metro's principles, don't you?
    Yes, I think we're arguing the same thing. However, I disagree about the stylistic thing. That is a key element of Metro that I think they are sticking with. They are changing UI patterns, not aesthetics.

    BTW, as a designer, calling flat UIs a "style" is kind of an insult to their nature. Flat, minimal UIs are designed to avoid the use of "style" by not stylizing things. The principal is used to break everything down to the minimum needed to convey function and deliver content.

    Using "aesthetic" is more appropriate. :)
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    02-02-2015 09:40 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Yes, I think we're arguing the same thing. However, I disagree about the stylistic thing. That is a key element of Metro that I think they are sticking with. They are changing UI patterns, not aesthetics.

    BTW, as a designer, calling flat UIs a "style" is kind of an insult to their nature. Flat, minimal UIs are designed to avoid the use of "style" by not stylizing things. The principal is used to break everything down to the minimum needed to convey function and deliver content.

    Using "aesthetic" is more appropriate. :)
    Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Thanks. Sorry if I offended due to my use of "style". The aesthetic vs. style terminology is a result of English not being my native language, so sorry about that. Now that you've said so it's clear that aesthetic is the better word.

    Our differences are really only over what the word Metro refers to. For you, it's about the aesthetics. For me it's about the UI patterns. We've probably both defined it to refer to that part of the UI which is most important to us. You'd probably consider Metro alive and well, as long as the aesthetic endures. I'd say that only if the UI patterns endure.

    Otherwise we are pretty much in agreement. ;-)
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-03-2015 at 12:39 AM. Reason: spelling
    Laura Knotek and sahib lopez like this.
    02-02-2015 09:53 PM
  14. tiziano27's Avatar
    Please don't project your own difficulties on me. Your definition of "chrome" is just one of many many examples of things you've shown to incorrectly "understand". Those many misunderstandings add up.

    Chrome:
    "The visible graphical interface features of an application are sometimes referred to as "chrome" or "Gui"
    source
    The word is completely unrelated to gradients, shadows, or not being flat. The term "content over chrome" pertains to moving any non essential UI elements out of the way (possibly hiding them), so as to provide more space for content.

    I think you're providing a good demonstration of the DunningKruger effect.

    You went to Wikipedia to quote a sentence you don't understand, to try to demonstrate that you know about something?
    Come on kid, don't put yourself in a position to be ridiculed.

    Chrome are UI elements that provide means to the user to operate over the content, or differentiate pieces of content, or that provide information about the content. Chrome is what can't be considered content in an application. For example, buttons, menu bars, status bar, title bars, borders, separations lines, etc.

    When Microsoft's designers state as a principle "content over chrome", they are describing flat design. Remove adornments like borders around every image in a picture gallery. Or remove commands like buttons and menu bars, and make the user operate directly over the content where possible. For example, in the new mail app in Windows 10, the user can delete a message swiping. Obviously you can't remove all the commands, you need some buttons, titles, tabs. So, the second best, is dropping the classical graphical elements that were used to identify chrome, mostly 3d elements like borders, gradients and shadows, so the chrome doesn't stand out, trying to get the nearest possible to not being present, so the content can be king. For example in WP typography, font size and indentation, are used to replace those 3d elements.

    untitled.png

    Now kid, go to wikipedia to learn more before talking about design again.
    Last edited by tiziano27; 02-02-2015 at 10:29 PM.
    leo74 likes this.
    02-02-2015 09:59 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Chrome are UI elements that provide means to the user to operate over the content, or differentiate pieces of content, or that provide information about the content. Chrome is what can't be considered content in an application. For example, buttons, menu bars, status bar, title bars, borders, separations lines, etc.
    Okay. One last time. The above I agree with. That was lifted off the internet, and although you complained about it, it's no different from the definition I provided in my previous post.

    Your own interpretation of that definition is still flawed however. You still understand "chrome" as referring to "decoration" or "borders" (or "gradients" and "shadows" as you initially mentioned) and chrome-less as referring to "flat design", when "chrome" in fact refers to any type of UI element (that is not content). It has nothing to do with any particular aesthetic. It has no bearing on how UI elements are depicted or the extent to which they are decorated. This misunderstanding of yours is why you failed to comprehend my initial post which you overconfidently replied to.

    Everything else you've copied from various sources is exactly what I've been saying all along. If you just read your self provided definition one more time, you may understand it yet.

    You can call me "kid" all day long if you want. I'm happy if that amuses you, but it's not helping you save face. You're just digging yourself a deeper whole. Anyway, I'm done educating you on this matter, so I'll let you have the last word if you feel that's necessary.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    02-02-2015 11:01 PM
  16. spaulagain's Avatar
    You went to Wikipedia to quote a sentence you don't understand, to try to demonstrate that you know about something?
    Come on kid, don't put yourself in a position to be ridiculed.

    Chrome are UI elements that provide means to the user to operate over the content, or differentiate pieces of content, or that provide information about the content. Chrome is what can't be considered content in an application. For example, buttons, menu bars, status bar, title bars, borders, separations lines, etc.

    When Microsoft's designers state as a principle "content over chrome", they are describing flat design. Remove adornments like borders around every image in a picture gallery. Or remove commands like buttons and menu bars, and make the user operate directly over the content where possible. For example, in the new mail app in Windows 10, the user can delete a message swiping. Obviously you can't remove all the commands, you need some buttons, titles, tabs. So, the second best, is dropping the classical graphical elements that were used to identify chrome, mostly 3d elements like borders, gradients and shadows, so the chrome doesn't stand out, trying to get the nearest possible to not being present, so the content can be king. For example in WP typography, font size and indentation, are used to replace those 3d elements.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Untitled.png 
Views:	18 
Size:	222.4 KB 
ID:	95505

    Now kid, go to wikipedia to learn more before talking about design again.
    The fact that you think reading and citing Wikipedia means you know about design, shows how little you really know about it.

    There is a reason the Chrome browser is called Chrome. Look it up...

    http://www.quora.com/Why-is-Chrome-called-Chrome

    "In design terminology, chrome refers to the non-webpage parts of the browsers interface the toolbars, tabs and buttons because our design philosophy was Content, not chrome putting our focus on minimizing the amount of browser UI present, we felt it cheekily appropriate to name the browser Chrome."
    Laura Knotek, a5cent, tgp and 1 others like this.
    02-02-2015 11:28 PM
  17. tiziano27's Avatar
    Okay. One last time. The above I agree with. That was lifted off the internet, and although you complained about it, it's no different from the definition I provided in my previous post.
    It's clear you don't know much about design, but It's ok. I think you said you're studying. Well, probably when you finish your studies and with the experience of work, you'll learn more.
    Although, deceiving It's not ok. When you don't know, you say "I don't know". When you know, you say "I know". If you want to learn you're humble.
    It's not the first time I see you acting stupidly like this, so, I'll be watching you, don't do it again. :)

    Your own interpretation of that definition is still flawed however. You still understand "chrome" as referring to "decoration" or "borders" (or "gradients" and "shadows" as you initially mentioned) and chrome-less as referring to "flat design", when "chrome" in fact refers to any type of UI element (that is not content). It has nothing to do with any particular aesthetic. It has no bearing on how UI elements are depicted or the extent to which they are decorated. This misunderstanding of yours is why you failed to comprehend my initial post which you overconfidently replied to.

    Everything else you've copied from various sources is exactly what I've been saying all along. If you just read your self provided definition one more time, you may understand it yet.

    You can call me "kid" all day long if you want. I'm happy if that amuses you, but it's not helping you save face. You're just digging yourself a deeper whole. Anyway, I'm done educating you on this matter, so I'll let you have the last word if you feel that's necessary.
    It seems you didn't understand what I wrote. Read again, I took the time to give you the best explanation I could. I didn't copy anything.
    I know a bit about this because I work in software development, I have a company and for some time I was interested in these problems. I'm not an expert but I know enough to detect BS.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-02-2015 11:54 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I'm perfectly fine with you thinking that. Let's move on.
    02-03-2015 12:03 AM
  19. neo158's Avatar
    While I may not like the hamburger button, there is one usage case where it may actually help. I'll just ask this, how do you get to a folder in the default mail client on WP right now?
    02-03-2015 08:47 AM
  20. manicottiK's Avatar
    While I may not like the hamburger button, there is one usage case where it may actually help. I'll just ask this, how do you get to a folder in the default mail client on WP right now?
    Is this supposed to be a trick question? Tap ..., tap Folders.

    If the hamburger menu contains a link to the folder list, it would be the same two-step process, although one of the taps might be a swipe. If the Hamburger menu shows the folder list at all times (rather than making you tap a Folders item), the hamburger menu itself will require scrolling to accommodate sometimes long email folder lists or multiple folder lists in the case of linked Inboxes. Showing the list at all times would crowd out the other choices in the hamburger menu.
    02-03-2015 02:58 PM
  21. neo158's Avatar
    Is this supposed to be a trick question? Tap ..., tap Folders.

    If the hamburger menu contains a link to the folder list, it would be the same two-step process, although one of the taps might be a swipe. If the Hamburger menu shows the folder list at all times (rather than making you tap a Folders item), the hamburger menu itself will require scrolling to accommodate sometimes long email folder lists or multiple folder lists in the case of linked Inboxes. Showing the list at all times would crowd out the other choices in the hamburger menu.
    That's what I'm saying. The hamburger button, at least on the Outlook Preview for Android, shows a folder list at all times. Also a swipe from the left edge brings up that same folder list as well.
    02-04-2015 04:10 PM
  22. manicottiK's Avatar
    That's what I'm saying. The hamburger button, at least on the Outlook Preview for Android, shows a folder list at all times. Also a swipe from the left edge brings up that same folder list as well.
    What else is in that particular hamburger menu? Are there any other menus/settings/popups to access other functionality and where on the screen are they activated from?

    I spent some time with an iPhone today and was stunned at how much real estate my fingers had to cross to do things. I had to go to the upper left, upper right, and lower corners. It some ways, it felt as disorganized as WM 5 or 6 (but was far better looking and more consistent than those).
    02-04-2015 06:04 PM
  23. neo158's Avatar
    What else is in that particular hamburger menu? Are there any other menus/settings/popups to access other functionality and where on the screen are they activated from?

    I spent some time with an iPhone today and was stunned at how much real estate my fingers had to cross to do things. I had to go to the upper left, upper right, and lower corners. It some ways, it felt as disorganized as WM 5 or 6 (but was far better looking and more consistent than those).
    It links to the Calendar, People and OneDrive. But considering this is on Android I would expect those things to show up in the hamburger menu.
    02-05-2015 05:23 AM
  24. mjrtoo's Avatar
    While every mail app in the world offers more functionality than the one on WP.
    Absolutely not true.
    02-10-2015 07:53 AM
  25. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    The more I look at screenshots of Windows 10 for mobile the more I wonder why I don't just get an Android device, since the UI is pretty much heading in that direction anyway. Since Microsoft has put more time and energy into making sure their own apps are updated faster and more often on iOS and Android anyway, the only real differentiator between a Windows Phone and everyone else was the camera and UI. Since its inception, the Windows Phone UI was based on spacing and typography. Little-to-no chrome.

    With Windows 10 mobile all I've seen is a major step away from the UI elements that made Windows Phone so great. Look no further than the new email, messaging and photos app. As a longtime WP user this frustrates me. I was willing to constantly be left behind in apps and games because I liked the style of my OS. I'll wait until Windows Mobile 10 comes out to make a final judgement, but I can see myself leaving Windows Phone if they continue to choose not to differentiate themselves with the UI. I suppose the preview time is our platform to let Microsoft know that we don't like the direction they are taking WP with regards to the UI.

    Attachment 95101
    Get your hands on it first. It may look like Android, but I doubt that it works like Android. My issues with Android were never about the UI, it was with the way it operated, so if Windows 10 for phones is like Android in that regard it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
    neo158 likes this.
    02-10-2015 08:01 AM
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