12-25-2016 06:50 AM
45 12
tools
  1. Joe920's Avatar
    Sooooo,
    should Microsoft take a timeout ... or Game Over?

    There's the question at hand.
    My opinion is a major timeout should've happened BEFORE Win Phone 8.
    I've been saying around these parts that they should have kept their efforts in the low end going. What the platform needs most is users, to incentivize devs. People who can afford iphones and galaxies are unlikely to switch. Kids, grandparents, and people in developing countries are more likely to go for a decent affordable option. They had stiff competition from lower cost Android phones, but given how important this stuff is they could/should have afforded to run close to 'at-cost' for their low end phones. It might still have failed, but at least it wouldn't have looked as defeatist while they tinker with their Surface Phone.
    12-12-2016 06:55 PM
  2. MDK22's Avatar
    I've been saying around these parts that they should have kept their efforts in the low end going. What the platform needs most is users, to incentivize devs. People who can afford iphones and galaxies are unlikely to switch. Kids, grandparents, and people in developing countries are more likely to go for a decent affordable option. They had stiff competition from lower cost Android phones, but given how important this stuff is they could/should have afforded to run close to 'at-cost' for their low end phones. It might still have failed, but at least it wouldn't have looked as defeatist while they tinker with their Surface Phone.
    Good Point!
    12-12-2016 07:18 PM
  3. pbbomfim's Avatar
    Don't know if that is true. The system goes on, with or without great market share.
    12-12-2016 07:27 PM
  4. jeffchapik's Avatar
    They lost the battle, at least in the US, at the point of sale. I can't tell you how many times I was actively steered away from a Windows phone by an AT&T or Verizon sales associate, sometimes condescendingly so.
    aximtreo and Saijin_Naib like this.
    12-12-2016 10:41 PM
  5. milkyway's Avatar
    Don't know if that is true. The system goes on, with or without great market share.
    It depends which system. I think the Windows 10 Mobile SKU is history - or maybe it will continue in some low end phones. MS will bring the Surface Phone (probably: Surface Mobile) to the market with high end hardware and the full W10 SKU on it. So will other manufacturers with PC knowledge like HP. The W10M SKU will live on as the UI you have on your phone/Surface Mobile as you are not in Continuum mode
    12-13-2016 01:29 AM
  6. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I've been saying around these parts that they should have kept their efforts in the low end going. What the platform needs most is users, to incentivize devs. People who can afford iphones and galaxies are unlikely to switch. Kids, grandparents, and people in developing countries are more likely to go for a decent affordable option. They had stiff competition from lower cost Android phones, but given how important this stuff is they could/should have afforded to run close to 'at-cost' for their low end phones. It might still have failed, but at least it wouldn't have looked as defeatist while they tinker with their Surface Phone.
    I agree with this. I also believe bringing the Continuum experience to low end hardware will be where the real market for Win 10 is and where they will gain ground.

    The problem is however is that MS has a love affair with the US still and they seem to be going out of their way to ignore the rest of the world.

    The other issues are of course is that devs want ROI. A lot of developing countries want everything for free and without ads. Kind of makes it hard to want to be a developer for a third place OS when the possibility of income is low to non existent.

    If I were to make a point about Windows Phone 8 as a starting point for me, as a person who was a contractor at the time of purchase and Windows Phone 8 being brand new, the phone lacked a lot of features that I required. I stuck with WP for as long as I could but eventually had to move on. This, along with lack of apps is probably the primary reason why WP had trouble launching. It simply took too long for some people for when WP became a more viable device.

    For some W10M works just fine for them and has all they want. For others it's still too limiting and even with x86 programs, a lot of people still won't bother, it may be great for business (depending on a lot of factors), but for the consumer it will still be niche.

    It's going to take something very special to change minds at this stage. I'm not sure MS can deliver it.
    libra89, xandros9 and theefman like this.
    12-13-2016 02:14 AM
  7. Andrea988's Avatar
    I disagree. None of what happened explains why they purchased Nokia in the first place. In 2014 the market share was increasing and although most articles and posts only see it from the American point of view, some countries were doing very well in increasing the market share of Windows Phones and in some countries, in Europe in particular but also notably in China, Windows phones were actually outselling the iPhone.

    So Windows Phone was gaining momentum, the update to 8.1 was well received and there was the pending interest and excitement in Windows 10 which should have helped rope in those fans who were not too keen on Windows 8 on the desktop. The real question is one that is rarely asked and that is why did Microsoft not keep the momentum going, introduce a batch of new phones on a regular basis, and continue to try and build the interest that was clearly there?

    I don't think it was a bad purchase at all, I think the Lumia range was a growing business which was well respected by those who bought the phones, helped along by the familiarity of the Nokia name, that for whatever reason Microsoft chose not to develop. It is rarely written that the main reason for the decrease in market share is nothing to do with all the speculative nonsense you read all over the place, it is simply that the models were withdrawn from the market without being replaced. People are not going to buy if there is nothing to buy.

    Proof of this was easy to see. I wanted a 950XL but had to settle for a 950 because it was the only one available on the network I have a contract with. In fact in the UK it was only available on one network. I know from reading various posts it was the same story in the US, people couldn't get the phone they wanted on the network they wanted. At the same time it's worth bearing in mind that there is little, if any, profit in low end phones which usually make a loss for the manufacturers.

    The likes of Samsung got a large market share by flooding the market with an almost endless range of models right across the range. Even Nokia had a reasonable number of models to choose from and most were available on most networks, but almost as soon as Microsoft bought out the Nokia business they switched it off, long before it had started to fail. Even the Nokia name was dropped almost immediately. There has to be a reason for that but as the market share wasn't that bad at the time of purchase, I don't think Windows Phone is failing in it's current form because people didn't buy them, or because of the apps or anything like that, it's simply because the products didn't exist to satisfy the demand that was already there. Case in point were the 950/XL which I think are perfectly fine but the market expected a flagship device to rival other flagship models, in appearance in particular, and it didn't happen.

    It is worth bearing in mind that 1% is still equal to over 100 million phones and there are a lot of CEOs of big companies who would die for that many sales. It's also worth noting that Microsoft don't have to licence the operating system, like Samsung et al have to from Google. Samsung, LG, Sony etc. are all bleeding money in their smartphone departments and many smaller phone makers still don't sell anything like the number of phones that Microsoft have sold, in Europe and the US in particular (Sharp, Panasonic etc.).

    Maybe it's simply a case of what's the point of trying to pursue something that even if they succeed and get Samsung-like sales figures, still isn't going to make them that much money, if any? With that in mind, as far as the hardware department is concerned perhaps going the way that other PC manufacturers have gone, HP, Acer etc, by concentrating on the core business and just bringing out one or two complimentary phones that work well with the rest of the kit - the Surface phone would be the perfect fit for this - is the correct way to go.

    And with Nokia/Lumia being no more, any potential real competition has gone! Think about it - if the Surface phone has been planned all along - and it has been touted for some time now - doesn't it make sense in many ways to get rid of the main competition? How many would buy the no-doubt far more expensive Surface Phone if Nokia released at top of the range Lumia 990 at the same time? History is littered with big businesses getting rid of the main competition by buying them out, so maybe it's not such a bad move after all.
    Player Piano and jazen like this.
    12-13-2016 03:43 AM
  8. aximtreo's Avatar
    Remember what is said about Real Estate sales success: Location, location, location.

    In this case I submit a slight change in wording: Advertise, advertise, advertise.

    I submit that MS has very few if any professional ad people. So they go outside to garner help with advertising. Good advertising and marketing can handle promoting hardware but very few know enough about the nuances of software to do a creditable job.

    I firmly believe that if MS had truly advertised the benefits of their software no matter whether it was 7, 8 or 10 they would have had much more success. Can you imagine where MS would be with 8% market share. I believe this would have been possible by doing the right ads aimed at the right market and pounded on again and again.

    I'm a salesman and I believe that I could sell ice to an Eskimo. User input from us to MS would have been invaluable. But, MS would have had to believe us and what we were suggesting. They didn't and here we are.
    libra89, xandros9 and Guytronic like this.
    12-13-2016 06:56 AM
  9. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    I did indeed have a Spectrum +2, then I woke up and got a Commodore 64 instead
    I had an original Spectrum, then a +3 briefly before moving onto a Commodore Amiga. I even had the humble ZX81. I will stop here before I derail the thread
    speccy likes this.
    12-13-2016 09:01 AM
  10. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    I've been saying around these parts that they should have kept their efforts in the low end going. What the platform needs most is users, to incentivize devs. People who can afford iphones and galaxies are unlikely to switch. Kids, grandparents, and people in developing countries are more likely to go for a decent affordable option. They had stiff competition from lower cost Android phones, but given how important this stuff is they could/should have afforded to run close to 'at-cost' for their low end phones. It might still have failed, but at least it wouldn't have looked as defeatist while they tinker with their Surface Phone.
    Indeed. It seems that Microsoft has always treated Windows Phone as a side project with no real direction. What they should've done is slowly upgraded those low end phones ie a better 520/521 (in other words like the 640 only back then) instead of creating a bunch of low end phones with all sorts of odd specs like 4GB storage etc.
    Player Piano, Joe920 and Guytronic like this.
    12-13-2016 09:09 AM
  11. Joe920's Avatar
    What they should've done is slowly upgraded those low end phones ie a better 520/521 (in other words like the 640 only back then)
    Exactly, that's what I was thinking. When you read the L640 reviews on Amazon it's like you're in an alternate universe where everybody loves WP. The people that got those phones are thrilled with the quality and performance for the low price they paid.

    640reviews.jpg
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    12-13-2016 11:03 AM
  12. theefman's Avatar
    For some W10M works just fine for them and has all they want. For others it's still too limiting and even with x86 programs, a lot of people still won't bother, it may be great for business (depending on a lot of factors), but for the consumer it will still be niche.

    It's going to take something very special to change minds at this stage. I'm not sure MS can deliver it
    .
    Pretty much what escapes most people hyperventilating about the next savior surface phone. Consumers use apps TODAY for what they USED to use desktops for, and have now mostly no need for the desktop and x86 applications. Those apps will only get better, more useful and people will rely on them more and more by the time the surface phone arrives and with the only "new' feature it can offer being the desktop paradigm people have already rejected, it already has failure written all over it.
    N_LaRUE and Wolfjt like this.
    12-13-2016 11:18 AM
  13. Joe920's Avatar
    Pretty much what escapes most people hyperventilating about the next savior surface phone. Consumers use apps TODAY for what they USED to use desktops for, and have now mostly no need for the desktop and x86 applications. Those apps will only get better, more useful and people will rely on them more and more by the time the surface phone arrives and with the only "new' feature it can offer being the desktop paradigm people have already rejected, it already has failure written all over it.
    I think they have something here. They are still the only guys that have an OS that works equally well on small and large screens. An iPad Air type Win10 device that can be docked wirelessly or with a single cable to desktop setup (monitor + peripherals) would be a pretty nice. Android tablets are a failure so far, and doing 'real work' on iPads remains a pain.

    I imagine for many people a Win10 on ARM device could be the only computer they need. Low cost, long battery life, versatile. If MS can shrink one of their models down to a bezel-less 6" or 7" device it might even be the single phone+tablet+PC device some people need. /hyperventilation

    On a related note, remember Panos' Surface Mini? Maybe its time has finally come.
    aximtreo and libra89 like this.
    12-13-2016 11:34 AM
  14. theefman's Avatar
    I think they have something here. They are still the only guys that have an OS that works equally well on small and large screens. An iPad Air type Win10 device that can be docked wirelessly or with a single cable to desktop setup (monitor + peripherals) would be a pretty nice. Android tablets are a failure so far, and doing 'real work' on iPads remains a pain.

    I imagine for many people a Win10 on ARM device could be the only computer they need. Low cost, long battery life, versatile. If MS can shrink one of their models down to a bezel-less 6" or 7" device it might even be the single phone+tablet+PC device some people need. /hyperventilation

    On a related note, remember Panos' Surface Mini? Maybe its time has finally come.
    They only have something if you look at it from a technical standpoint. But do regular users actually care if its one OS that works across different form factors? Presenting the argument from the single standpoint that people will be attracted because they can use an ARM phone as a full computer ignores the other usage scenarios when the phone isn't being used in that way, and the fact that people have moved away from the desktop model to using their phones and tablets as their main computing devices, and that's where the whole proposition falls flat. On a site like this I can see why only the pro Microsoft side would be considered but from what we know of today's smartphone world, there is no real demand for a phone that works like a PC (complete with sitting at a desk with keyboard & mouse). If that wasn't the case W10M devices with Continuum would be flying off the shelves, but they aren't and that basically answers the question.

    Sent from mTalk on my Acer A12
    anon(6078578), jazen and N_LaRUE like this.
    12-13-2016 02:11 PM
  15. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    They only have something if you look at it from a technical standpoint. But do regular users actually care if its one OS that works across different form factors? Presenting the argument from the single standpoint that people will be attracted because they can use an ARM phone as a full computer ignores the other usage scenarios when the phone isn't being used in that way, and the fact that people have moved away from the desktop model to using their phones and tablets as their main computing devices, and that's where the whole proposition falls flat. On a site like this I can see why only the pro Microsoft side would be considered but from what we know of today's smartphone world, there is no real demand for a phone that works like a PC (complete with sitting at a desk with keyboard & mouse). If that wasn't the case W10M devices with Continuum would be flying off the shelves, but they aren't and that basically answers the question.

    Sent from mTalk on my Acer A12
    That has been my view too. Most people are not interested in hooking up their phone to a monitor. Most users I know seem to do everything on their phone because it's mobile and with them wherever they are. Everyone talks about hooking your phone up to a monitor to use it as a replacement for their main computer as being the next big thing, but forget that these same people rarely use their main computer anyway, so what difference would it make for them?
    jazen, N_LaRUE, Kram Sacul and 1 others like this.
    12-13-2016 02:30 PM
  16. Neill Baldwin's Avatar
    They only have something if you look at it from a technical standpoint. But do regular users actually care if its one OS that works across different form factors? Presenting the argument from the single standpoint that people will be attracted because they can use an ARM phone as a full computer ignores the other usage scenarios when the phone isn't being used in that way, and the fact that people have moved away from the desktop model to using their phones and tablets as their main computing devices, and that's where the whole proposition falls flat. On a site like this I can see why only the pro Microsoft side would be considered but from what we know of today's smartphone world, there is no real demand for a phone that works like a PC (complete with sitting at a desk with keyboard & mouse). If that wasn't the case W10M devices with Continuum would be flying off the shelves, but they aren't and that basically answers the question.

    Sent from mTalk on my Acer A12
    You may be right but I'm trying to look at it from another angle. I can't speak as to why W10 mobile isn't more popular for everyone but I know for allot of people, it is the apps. If you were running a full version of Windows 10, wouldn't that open the door for more apps? I know for me, I would wonder if it would run one of the Android emulator programs that could open all kinds of possibilities. Not sure h
    ow it would perform but all I need just access to a couple of apps that wouldn't require allot of processing power. I'm sure I am in the extreme minority though.
    aximtreo likes this.
    12-14-2016 04:27 AM
  17. speccy's Avatar
    The problem Microsoft has is that if continuum or some derivative of it becomes good enough to replace your PC, it WILL replace the PC, and in doing so will deprive Microsoft of even more revenue. I believe they give the phone OS away for free, but get significant revenue for their desktop OS.
    12-14-2016 11:24 AM
  18. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    The problem Microsoft has is that if continuum or some derivative of it becomes good enough to replace your PC, it WILL replace the PC, and in doing so will deprive Microsoft of even more revenue. I believe they give the phone OS away for free, but get significant revenue for their desktop OS.
    Which is why they're transitioning to a cloud services company so they're less reliant on the OS.
    12-15-2016 10:50 AM
  19. Wolfjt's Avatar
    That has been my view too. Most people are not interested in hooking up their phone to a monitor. Most users I know seem to do everything on their phone because it's mobile and with them wherever they are. Everyone talks about hooking your phone up to a monitor to use it as a replacement for their main computer as being the next big thing, but forget that these same people rarely use their main computer anyway, so what difference would it make for them?
    There is no demand in the most Important place for MS and that is the enterprise. Continum will not persuade people over to Win Mobile
    12-24-2016 07:11 PM
  20. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I've been saying around these parts that they should have kept their efforts in the low end going. What the platform needs most is users, to incentivize devs.
    ...
    It might still have failed, but at least it wouldn't have looked as defeatist while they tinker with their Surface Phone.
    I agree. Microsoft was losing $500 million per quarter in the phone business. Nadella should have reduced the losses withdrawing from the weakest markets, but keeping WP alive in its best markets. The app situation would be better for Surface Phone, Tablets, XBOX and AR.

    As the mobile platform matures, closing the app gap becomes easier. The dominant apps are consolidated, killer apps aren't appearing every month. Companies are moving to cross-platform frameworks. The mobile web is improving and replacing apps. A small player like Windows with differentiators like Continuum, ink and AR, could have had good chance. Now It's a lot harder... but still posible?
    12-25-2016 06:50 AM
45 12

Similar Threads

  1. Killer Instinct for Windows Phone
    By ReprobusR in forum Phone & Tablet Gaming
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-02-2017, 08:27 AM
  2. How do you reverse the 2-finger scrolling?
    By jpoulin587 in forum Lenovo Yoga Book
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-31-2016, 11:25 AM
  3. PC seems stuck with 100% disk all the time
    By Windows Central Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-12-2016, 01:49 AM
  4. why am i getting error loggig into facebook on edge
    By Windows Central Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-12-2016, 12:22 AM
  5. how do i "save' my icloud photos to widows 10
    By Windows Central Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-11-2016, 05:10 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD