04-19-2017 01:24 PM
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  1. gjbcapital's Avatar
    It's Microsoft's fault. They had to make sure for 2 things.

    First that at the launch of the platform the 10 most popular apps (facebook etc.) will have a working full version in native code for the platform.

    Second that at the launch of the platform the serious bugs will be zero.

    If a 500 billion dollars corporation can't ensure that they have allocated enough resources and have the necessary strategic partnerships to achieve this then the heads of the project are amateurs.
    BrunoMG likes this.
    04-08-2017 05:52 AM
  2. Zulfigar's Avatar
    Microsoft promises 3 years of support for mobile devices. The Lumia 930 came out exactly 3 years ago (April of 2014). So not sure why the hate, Microsoft is just keeping their word on a promise they made.
    mtf1380 and aximtreo like this.
    04-08-2017 09:00 AM
  3. TgeekB's Avatar
    Imma take Krystian's side on this one.

    If more people upgraded to the 950/XL instead of holding on to whatever they have now it would probably be better. Especially if you're looking for a phone that MS actually wants (seemingly) to release updates for.

    But this does make me a hypocrite :p I have the 640 and I'm not planning to upgrade (unless I can get the 950 for less than 200 lol) until MS provides a decent picture and tangible proof of the future
    You could probably get a refurbished or used 950 for about $200.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    ven07 and aximtreo like this.
    04-08-2017 09:02 AM
  4. ven07's Avatar
    You could probably get a refurbished or used 950 for about $200.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    I did check :D but I'm honestly waiting for some more shape in the w10m landscape. Until that happens my 640 should be sufficient, unless I go on a spending spree lol

    Thanks for the suggestion!
    TgeekB, a5cent, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    04-08-2017 10:25 AM
  5. HM84's Avatar
    Imma take Krystian's side on this one.

    If more people upgraded to the 950/XL instead of holding on to whatever they have now it would probably be better. Especially if you're looking for a phone that MS actually wants (seemingly) to release updates for.

    But this does make me a hypocrite :p I have the 640 and I'm not planning to upgrade (unless I can get the 950 for less than 200 lol) until MS provides a decent picture and tangible proof of the future
    Indulge me here. Years ago, European football teams had the habit of releasing new kits before the start of every season. When complaints came up from fans (and their parents) having to pay top euro for the privilege of wearing the newest, whitest Real Madrid shirt, regulators required a minimum two year cycle. All teams held onto their words for a while, and released the home shirts and away shirts in year one, then unleashed a third kit in year two (usually in a blinding shade of slime green), then brought out a new home kit in year three, to keep the dough rolling in. Guess who kept emptying their pockets for the newest, pinkest, Real Madrid alternate strips.

    The analogy I am making is that if you want me to be this type of fan, give me something worth the money I am paying. Saying the fans are to blame for not paying 500$ every year is a bit of a stretch.

    Oh and for the record, yes, I did get the 950XL as soon as it was available in my country. (Took them three months to get here, though.) And while I did have issues (still do) I do not regret my decision. However electronics companies should realize that, when they were selling PCs that were obsolete in a few months, they rode a wave (of fans) to the bank. If they plan on doing this again on phones, then fair game to them if they get the money, but remember where the PC market is right now; fans get fed up after a while.
    neo158 likes this.
    04-09-2017 03:04 AM
  6. ven07's Avatar
    Meh not saying anyone should shell out $500 bucks every time there is a new phone lol
    libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    04-09-2017 08:45 PM
  7. Anthony McIntosh's Avatar
    Think its safe to go to slow ring and get the creators update for my Lumia 1520 ?
    04-09-2017 09:27 PM
  8. Anthony McIntosh's Avatar
    Originally posted by Zulfigar
    Microsoft promises 3 years of support for mobile devices. The Lumia 930 came out exactly 3 years ago (April of 2014). So not sure why the hate, Microsoft is just keeping their word on a promise they made.
    I don't mind. But I was hoping that I can still risk my phone going on with the insider program. At least that and I would be fine.
    04-09-2017 09:31 PM
  9. GhostEchelon's Avatar
    Get the creators update for your 1520 before Microsoft takes it away. The latest build runs good. Just tiny issues.
    04-09-2017 09:50 PM
  10. HM84's Avatar
    Meh not saying anyone should shell out $500 bucks every time there is a new phone lol
    You're right, you don't. Others on this thread seem to think so, though. And companies are counting on them to do it. You also did mention that...

    "If more people upgraded to the 950/XL instead of holding on to whatever they have now it would probably be better."

    ...which is where my response came in. Not that I mean to hold you or anyone accountable for anything uttered on an internet forum.

    What I was trying to say is that, unlike enterprise software, which is always needed and has to be renewed every year or so, consumer electronics are too much of an ask. What any manufacturer needs to do in this case is sell to someone who doesn't already subscribe. This is where Apple's and Samsung's marketing won, and MS' lost.

    Forgive me for sidetracking, so to get back to the point of the thread, no. The problem is not broken promises. MS did not promise something they did not give. It is more a case of failure by someone who meant well. It's still disappointing, and if certain individuals intentionally led to this happening, then blame them if you need to blame someone. But as a whole, MS did what they came to do, got somewhere, gave up, packed their bags and went home when the time came to cut their losses.
    neo158 and ven07 like this.
    04-10-2017 01:13 AM
  11. mtf1380's Avatar
    But as a whole, MS did what they came to do, got somewhere, gave up, packed their bags and went home when the time came to cut their losses.
    @HM84, with all due respect, we don't 'know' this as a fact...just conjecture.

    My "conjecture" is that MS saw that 8.1 wasn't going to fully do what they wanted to achieve, and it was decided to rewrite the core hardware to be future friendly, and SECURE! The devices will start to appear once the final architecture is realized, again...my feelings only.

    But, regardless...anyone's buying habits is a personal preference and choice, and should be respected by others. If I feel like a product is right for me, and I can afford it, I'll buy it; if not, or can't...I won't. The manufacturers have the onus to make a consumer want to choose the prior, it is not the consumers 'responsibility' to buy $hit, that obligation is reserved for family, friends, and the misfortunate - not a profitable corporation...EVEN if the corporation displays excellent social contributions (for that they get kudos).
    a5cent and ven07 like this.
    04-10-2017 11:48 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    My "conjecture" is that MS saw that 8.1 wasn't going to fully do what they wanted to achieve, and it was decided to rewrite the core hardware to be future friendly, and SECURE! The devices will start to appear once the final architecture is realized, again...my feelings only.
    I can provide a bit more than "conjecture" on this.

    I suspect you meant to say "rewrite the core software". Very little in W10M was really rewritten however, least of all the core. The rewriting that did occur focused mainly on getting the few parts that remained (from WP8) to interface correctly with all the components that were brought over from desktop Windows (W10). Security, although always important, was by no means a major reason or motivator for any of this. WP7 was already the most secure consumer OS ever built. W10M is no more secure than WP7.x. If anything W10M is less secure (in exchange it offers some features that WP7 couldn't for security reasons).

    W10M represents the final software architecture of MS' mobile OS line. The foundation is now built. There will be no more major architectural evolutions on that front. On the bright side, MS can now focus on things that, although technically much smaller, simpler and architecturally irrelevant, are much more exciting to consumers. For example, UI innovations like CShell, or anything related to productivity and "creators". You can't build that (edit) economically (/edit) on top of a shaky or evolving foundation. That's why these types of things necessarily come last. Which is now.

    Completely agree with everything else you said.

    But as a whole, MS did what they came to do, got somewhere, gave up, packed their bags and went home when the time came to cut their losses.
    I agree that it could be framed that way. On the other hand, MS has only given up on phones. MS have not given up on mobile, nor have they cut their losses (they are are still investing heavily into W10M, which currently provides no ROI whatsoever).

    There is still a plan. It's just that nobody here knows what it is. All we can do is hope that somebody at MS does.
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-11-2017 at 05:05 AM. Reason: see edit + spelling
    mtf1380, milkyway, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    04-10-2017 05:06 PM
  13. mtf1380's Avatar
    @a5cent, thank you for your expertise:). Yes, I did mean Software (whoops!). I always felt that MS was doing a little/major software finessing, and they were going to focus on that task prior to introducing anything in the phone-ish hardware area...I would think, to avoid another mobile disappointment, and additional bad press?

    Thank you again.
    a5cent and ven07 like this.
    04-10-2017 05:44 PM
  14. HM84's Avatar
    @a5cent, @mtf1380,

    The reason for my statement is specifically that no one hears nearly enough about plans for W10M from MS. Pair that to the speculation on ARM or the Surface phone, then the official news of MS partnering with Samsung to sell an Android phone, and you can see why I referred to cutting losses.

    I agree with you both that the OS has evolved greatly from what it was back in WP8, and continues to do so, which is where we stand from a technical view (a sign of action by MS, but this should not be seen as the silver lining here). That said, I still have to note the drop in support and attention from the outside world, and the silence from MS as a result, which is the "real world" view.
    a5cent, mtf1380 and ven07 like this.
    04-11-2017 03:49 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    @HM84
    Agreed. It basically comes down to popular opinion/perception vs. reality. You were talking about the former. We were talking about the later. I prefer to stick with the cold hard facts. If MS is still investing hundreds of millions into W10M annually, then they have not cut their losses, no matter how much appearances suggest otherwise.

    However, I'm also fully aware that often times perception is reality, which is where things get fuzzy. Perception and reality are both important.
    04-11-2017 05:18 AM
  16. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Wrong... Wrong... Wrong.

    W10M will NOT be "erased" by W10oA.

    Why not? Because W10oA comes with all the same issues W10 has:

    W10 and W10oA require continual maintenance and administration. For "non geeks" it's far too easy to screw something up and nobody likes being dependent on others to get their computing devices fixed. Consumers have no certainty that uninstalling software actually deletes all of it. It's impossible for MS to protect Win32 users from themselves. Win32 software neither knows nor cares about the restrictions typically placed on low power mobile devices... and it never will care (Win32 software is a power hog). Malware abounds... etc. Basically, everything that has given Windows a poor reputation.

    W10M exists to remedy all those problems. W10oA remedies none of them! These are two completely different beasts. They technically overlap in only two ways: both run on ARM chips and they both run UWP apps. That's all. That's a pathetic amount of overlap for anything hoping to "erase" something else.

    W10oA exists to solve one or more of these (completely unrelated) problems:

    a) To reduce the price of portable Windows computers
    b) To bring mobile SoC features to Windows computers
    c) To popularize the UWP

    It is true that W10oA will likely replace W10M on MS' mobile devices (at least for now). However, "replace" does not mean "erase". W10M will continue to be developed for quite some time yet.

    If UWP ever becomes successfull (big "if"... I know), then W10M will make perfect sense again.
    So you still believe that after all the recent news?

    http://www.reddit.com/r/windowsphone...phone_windows/
    04-15-2017 05:18 PM
  17. FXi2's Avatar
    You ought to compare this to the Nexus owners who were left out in the cold that past few version upgrades. They got to find out just how long "updates forever" meant in Google-ese.
    And you probably haven't seen the joy of the "touch of death" or the "you are holding the phone wrong" or the "no 6 doesn't have a battery problem" issues from folks who spend nearly 1k on their phones.

    It's painful to think really, because none of these vendors should be treating customers like this, but it's not uncommon for any of them. I swear the 3 meet in a Starbucks each month just to see who's going to outdo the other in enraging their customer base.
    a5cent and ven07 like this.
    04-17-2017 12:44 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    So you still believe that after all the recent news?

    http://www.reddit.com/r/windowsphone...phone_windows/
    Yes.

    It's not being killed off like these people claim. It's the same old confusion. There is a difference between all W10M related development ending, and it just not being made available to the public. I understand that to many this argument will seem very theoretical. Many will ask why anyone should care about an OS that isn't available to the public. That's a reasonable question, but only from the perspective of a person who has no interest in MS beyond consumerism. I'm the opposite of that.

    I loved WP7.5 (great for its time). I liked WP8 (good for its time). I can't claim the same for W10M. I'm neither interested in W10M as a consumer product, nor am I trying to defend it here. However, I am still very much interested in MS' business strategy. That's what I usually converse about with MS folks.

    W10M is just the currently used name for the people-as-clients (not IoT) and pure-UWP (excludes Win32) version of Windows. These two things are at the core of W10M and they aren't going anywhere. MS is in a pickle because these days, few want a device that runs nothing but UWP software. The instant that changes (IF it ever does), is the instant W10M resurfaces. Although I'd hope MS wouldn't relaunch W10M under the same name (it better not be called W10M), and although a new layer of paint will have been applied (something like NEON), it will still be W10M at heart. It will still embody those two core principles.

    Here's a different way to look at it:

    As most forum members probably know, I've repeatedly disputed WCentral's claims that W10M and W10 are technically the same OS. W10M and W10 are different, because W10 is far larger and supports a boatload of Win32 related features that aren't part of W10M. However, the vast majority of components used by W10M are also shipped as part of W10. In other words, W10M is largely contained in W10. So, while W10M and W10 aren't the same, they do share a set of common components. As long as (a) these common components continue to evolve and improve, and (b) MS maintains the ability to install a pure UWP version of Windows that excludes Win32, well, that's W10M right there. Then W10M lives on. MS is still very much committed to both of those things.

    BTW, if W10M and W10 are truly one and the same, as many people at WCentral claim, then it's logically impossible to kill one without killing the other. People who believe both of those mutually exclusive things must either throw sanity out the window or start dealing with major bouts of cognitive dissonance. ;-)

    So, yes, my position is unchanged. W10M will continue to be developed. We may eventually get a new and improved version of W10M, or MS might fully retreat from the consumer market and flush UWP down the toilette and W10M along with it.

    We shall see..
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-17-2017 at 01:48 PM. Reason: spelling
    libra89, Guytronic and TgeekB like this.
    04-17-2017 06:16 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    @Krystianpants
    Okay, it's 7:30 hours later. I just noticed that WCentral released an article discrediting the tweet you referenced (that's not your fault of course). That tidbit of misinformation was, as usual, the result of a tech journalist who has virtually no understanding of the software world he is reporting on.

    The title of the article is "Windows 10 mobile is NOT dead". Here's a quote from the article:

    Interestingly, not one person we spoke to would definitively say or even imply that Windows 10 Mobile is being phased out and development is being discontinued.
    Yeah. No kidding. That's because, like I've been explaining here for about a year now, W10M isn't going anywhere unless the UWP goes with it. The second MS starts questioning the UWP, that's when you'll hear me chiming in with everyone else that W10M is dead ;-)

    How can I possibly know all this:
    • Some contacts at MS (although they don't tell me stuff they aren't allowed to).
    • A lot of experience in the software world, on all levels, from software engineer to program manager.
    • A better understanding of software technology, or at least better than 99% of the people reporting on it.
    mtf1380, tgp, Guytronic and 3 others like this.
    04-17-2017 02:00 PM
  20. techiez's Avatar
    Yah that's how MS sees it, like it or not. You sticking around with some old phone instead of getting the latest phone that they reveal means you're not worth it. This phone was the most powerful at the time, had this cool continuum feature and this is the first time they revealed a flagship in YEARS. You still didn't buy it. You had no idea whether the phone was going to have issues or not, you just didn't buy it. The issues were being brought up slowly over time, especially as newer builds came in. But you never knew this at launch and you didn't support them. To them it looked like there was no market for phones even with their hardcore audience. And they started pulling back and getting rid of stock with ridiculous price cuts.

    I'm not saying you're a fan or not on my own volition. I'm telling you what it looks like to MS. To MS it looked like it was just a Nokia crowd that didn't care for MS products but wanted to keep that Nokia nostalgia.

    My 950XL is great. It took them a year to get it right no doubt. Surface Book had a lot of growing pains too, but it sold like crazy, because there was demand.

    There is no demand for windows phone, just accept that. It is dead. I always had some hope but man I realize that it's impossible. Windows mobile will be erased by windows 10 on arm. And a consumer hololens is the only thing that can make UWP really take off if any future mobile devices have any chance of having an app ecosystem.
    950 failed not because of hardware or no demand, it was because of software, W10M was not ready for launch, the production release was horrible and riddled with bugs. Fans also need a reliable device as daily driver, so they promptly rejected.Also 950 was not marketed across markets. only in US where WP already failed to take off
    xandros9 likes this.
    04-18-2017 09:47 AM
  21. HM84's Avatar
    950 failed not because of hardware or no demand, it was because of software, W10M was not ready for launch, the production release was horrible and riddled with bugs. Fans also need a reliable device as daily driver, so they promptly rejected.Also 950 was not marketed across markets. only in US where WP already failed to take off
    If you felt that the 950 was not marketed across the board, what did you think of the Elite and the Idol? The Idol is finally available (online) where I live, but only after its price has been slashed in the US and worldwide, and with a 25% markup to take full advantage of my innocent, naive nature, should I opt for a device that is effectively being disowned by its mother(s?)
    04-19-2017 01:47 AM
  22. Krystianpants's Avatar
    @Krystianpants
    Okay, it's 7:30 hours later. I just noticed that WCentral released an article discrediting the tweet you referenced (that's not your fault of course). That tidbit of misinformation was, as usual, the result of a tech journalist who has virtually no understanding of the software world he is reporting on.

    The title of the article is "Windows 10 mobile is NOT dead". Here's a quote from the article:



    Yeah. No kidding. That's because, like I've been explaining here for about a year now, W10M isn't going anywhere unless the UWP goes with it. The second MS starts questioning the UWP, that's when you'll hear me chiming in with everyone else that W10M is dead ;-)

    How can I possibly know all this:
    • Some contacts at MS (although they don't tell me stuff they aren't allowed to).
    • A lot of experience in the software world, on all levels, from software engineer to program manager.
    • A better understanding of software technology, or at least better than 99% of the people reporting on it.
    Maybe you should do some freelance writing using your expertise and not rumors.
    04-19-2017 01:24 PM
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