11-02-2015 07:35 AM
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  1. runamuck83's Avatar
    Despite Windows 10 being adopted at a massive rate, it seems developers are tepid as to the prospect of creating apps. In some cases, existing 8.1 apps are still left rotting while new apps seem few and far between. We're about 3 months since release with over 110 million installs.

    What is going to convince developers to look at making Universal Windows Apps?

    I know the standard arguments that "why would they, people don't use apps on PC - they have a browser". Heard it, don't need to hear it again.

    I want to know what you think will get developers to make apps? What is the catalyst, beyond sheer volume of users? What else can Microsoft do to make them understand an app is superior to web experience?

    I think games would be the obvious winner here. Games are a perfect fit for the volume of users and Win10 Store. I cannot for the life of me fathom why Supercell refuses to put Clash of Clans on Win10 - why wouldn't they want to get access to millions of users across PC/Phone/Tablet and ultimately Xbox?
    10-24-2015 10:21 AM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    I know the standard arguments that "why would they, people don't use apps on PC - they have a browser". Heard it, don't need to hear it again.
    I agree with you here. Yet at the same time, is it not true? Looking at it realistically, I'm not sure there is a better answer. At least not at this point.
    10-24-2015 10:34 AM
  3. runamuck83's Avatar
    I agree with you here. Yet at the same time, is it not true? Looking at it realistically, I'm not sure there is a better answer. At least not at this point.
    There has to be a series of advantages to making an app over directing people to a website. I see this mostly with games. Games as apps will be much more user friendly than a web-browser game (just in my experience).

    In some cases things like mail, daily planners, organization apps, etc make more sense than a website. I love using the Wunderlist app over going to the website - because it's always there. I can just open the minimized app and check off a task without having to open my browser, navigate to the site, and login. That's a benefit...

    Having something instantly available at a click, rather than an open a browser, go to site, and login is a selling point to me. Wouldn't you agree?
    wpn00b, podsnap and rhapdog like this.
    10-24-2015 10:40 AM
  4. elindalyne's Avatar
    The netflix app is far better than the browser experience... The VLC app is what I use on my surface rather than using the full blown desktop application.

    Look at me I'm using anecdotal evidence too!

    You also need to remember that Windows 10 hasn't been released anywhere other than desktop. Xbox and Mobile are coming up within the next few months and we'll probably see "bigger" name apps released then.

    It also takes time to develop an app. We'll probably see a huge influx of store apps within the next 9 months.
    Nicholas Maguire likes this.
    10-24-2015 10:44 AM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    Having something instantly available at a click, rather than an open a browser, go to site, and login is a selling point to me. Wouldn't you agree?
    If opening an app is quicker than going to the website, you're using the wrong browser.

    That said, yes, you do have a valid point. But at the same time, do we want a zillion apps installed on our PCs? For one thing, they would be less convenient to find if there are too many. Also, having too many apps could affect performance and/or storage.

    So far, in most cases the website offers at least an equal experience to the app, often better. However, so far PC apps seem to be an afterthought. If developers get serious about them, that should change.
    10-24-2015 10:47 AM
  6. runamuck83's Avatar
    If opening an app is quicker than going to the website, you're using the wrong browser.

    That said, yes, you do have a valid point. But at the same time, do we want a zillion apps installed on our PCs? For one thing, they would be less convenient to find if there are too many. Also, having too many apps could affect performance and/or storage.

    So far, in most cases the website offers at least an equal experience to the app, often better. However, so far PC apps seem to be an afterthought. If developers get serious about them, that should change.
    I agree there would be a point of diminishing returns if you have to install a hundred apps (kind of like how some peoples phone home screens look right? )

    In my particular example with Wunderlist - I leave the app open throughout the day and minimized (the joy of universal apps is when you minimize them they go to sleep and don't eat up processing power, and very small memory footprint). So, when I need to do something I just open the app, do it, and minimize it. Much faster than opening browser, going to www.wunderlist.com, logging in, and doing it.
    noersetiawan, wpn00b and tgp like this.
    10-24-2015 10:58 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    I want to know what you think will get developers to make apps? What is the catalyst, beyond sheer volume of users?
    This question has such a simple answer.

    The answer is "profit potential". The volume of users is almost irrelevant in comparison.

    That's the only thing that will get developers to invest engineering resources into the W10 ecosystem.


    The W10 ecosystem could be 1 billion strong. If those people aren't spending money or aren't otherwise monetizable, then the size of the install base doesn't matter.

    The user base must have disposable income, be willing to spend on software, and be numerous enough to sustain the engineering effort. These things together explain why iOS is still the most important platform for developers, despite it's comparatively small market share.
    10-24-2015 11:31 AM
  8. runamuck83's Avatar
    This question has such a simple answer.

    The answer is "profit potential". The volume of users is almost irrelevant in comparison.

    That's the only thing that will get developers to invest engineering resources into the W10 ecosystem.


    The W10 ecosystem could be 1 billion strong. If those people aren't spending money or aren't otherwise monetizable, then the size of the install base doesn't matter.

    The user base must have disposable income, be willing to spend on software, and be numerous enough to sustain the engineering effort. These things together explain why iOS is still the most important platform for developers, despite it's comparatively small market share.
    But what about free apps where money comes from ads or IAP?
    10-24-2015 11:49 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    But what about free apps where money comes from ads or IAP?
    Same difference. Serving adds to consumers in western Europe or the U.S. makes developers far more money than serving adds in eastern Europe or Nepal.

    For advertising to work, a developer's user base needs to be both living predominantly in wealthier economies AND very numerous. WP/WM can offer neither.
    10-24-2015 11:59 AM
  10. runamuck83's Avatar
    Same difference. Serving adds to consumers in western Europe or the U.S. makes developers far more money than serving adds in eastern Europe or Nepal.

    For advertising to work, a developer's user base needs to be both living predominantly in wealthier economies AND very numerous. WP/WM can offer neither.
    I'm talking about Windows 10, not specifically mobile.
    10-24-2015 12:26 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm talking about Windows 10, not specifically mobile.
    I don't think anything I said is specific to W10 or W10M. What I said applies to both equally. I mentioned iOS only as practical proof of developer interest not being just a function of user base quantity, but also of "quality". This applies to W10 just as it does to any other commercial OS.
    Laura Knotek and tgp like this.
    10-24-2015 12:58 PM
  12. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Developers on reddit have said that ad money is miniscule because most of it is higher on click through than just views. You need millions of users using it daily to make any money. And setting a proper price point is also a concern as some May not buy it. Free apps are generally not very profitable. Even if you pay to remove ads you would need quite a lot of users. The best thing is to make a high quality app that users are willing to pay for. From my understanding the windows user base at this point just do not buy as many apps. The phones were targeted at low end market and the result is people who don't want to spend money. While it helped windows gain some footing it's also the reason it is being abandoned more often. It's not a viable platform to make money. The desktop upgrades are also free, so many users are on old computers and don't want to invest much into them. The only plus side to this is that there's more ad views with a larger user base. So in essence this is the first step to help developers monetize. And making high end hardware that sells with windows 10, is part of the second problem ms is trying to solve. So it makes sense what they are doing but it's not something that happens over night. Focusing on desktop should be their priority. And by providing proper tools it automatically will shift down to the mobile side. So if people are buying apps on desktop, the logical solution is to invest in a windows phone where the apps they purchased will already exist instead of buying them again.

    The new generation is more app driven than the old website generation. when someone wants something they don't want to be hunting on the web, they think "is there an app for this?". W32 app developers are trying to get more exposure in search queries to get there app to people. Now they can develop to an app store where people will provide ratings, comments and allow them to get more exposure. They can also fix bugs and have a better process for feedback in order to improve their scores and exposure. Honestly I barely use the web for much since windows 10. Everything is becoming centered around my computer. If something changes on the web I don't have a neat notification and updating system. Whether the device is on a big screen with a keyboard or a small screen, they all have browsers, so technically by your logic, mobile doesn't need apps either.
    daftpunklover likes this.
    10-24-2015 01:36 PM
  13. mggm100's Avatar
    What is going to convince developers to look at making Universal Windows Apps?
    My guess is that many are waiting for non-PC devices to have the ability to run Windows 10 universal apps before jumping on what is currently a nonexistent bandwagon.
    10-24-2015 04:36 PM
  14. illidanx's Avatar
    But what about free apps where money comes from ads or IAP?
    As a developer, here is my two cents. When you write apps for Windows, there are very few ad networks you can use. For example, for UWP apps, it currently only supports Microsoft's Pubcenter and Adduplex. The ads provided my Pubcenter have so poor performance that it rarely gives developers enough money. Just look at Pubcenter msdn forums to see people complaints about how horrid Pubcenter is (https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...t=lastpostdesc). Adduplex is just an ad exchange platforms between developers; it does not bring any money. Google's vast and superior Adsense network is not available on Windows Store app (it's available only on Windows Phone 8). Coupled that with the low percentage of desktop users who spend money on apps or even use apps at all, it does not give developer much incentives. When there is no money, there is no apps. It's as simple as that.
    10-25-2015 02:56 PM
  15. runamuck83's Avatar
    As a developer, here is my two cents. When you write apps for Windows, there are very few ad networks you can use. For example, for UWP apps, it currently only supports Microsoft's Pubcenter and Adduplex. The ads provided my Pubcenter have so poor performance that it rarely gives developers enough money. Just look at Pubcenter msdn forums to see people complaints about how horrid Pubcenter is (https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...t=lastpostdesc). Adduplex is just an ad exchange platforms between developers; it does not bring any money. Google's vast and superior Adsense network is not available on Windows Store app (it's available only on Windows Phone 8). Coupled that with the low percentage of desktop users who spend money on apps or even use apps at all, it does not give developer much incentives. When there is no money, there is no apps. It's as simple as that.
    So are there plans to get Adsense support for universal windows apps?
    10-25-2015 06:56 PM
  16. rmeigs's Avatar
    Despite Windows 10 being adopted at a massive rate, it seems developers are tepid as to the prospect of creating apps. I
    windows-10-apps-partners.jpg
    10-25-2015 08:52 PM
  17. Krystianpants's Avatar
    As a developer, here is my two cents. When you write apps for Windows, there are very few ad networks you can use. For example, for UWP apps, it currently only supports Microsoft's Pubcenter and Adduplex. The ads provided my Pubcenter have so poor performance that it rarely gives developers enough money. Just look at Pubcenter msdn forums to see people complaints about how horrid Pubcenter is (https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...t=lastpostdesc). Adduplex is just an ad exchange platforms between developers; it does not bring any money. Google's vast and superior Adsense network is not available on Windows Store app (it's available only on Windows Phone 8). Coupled that with the low percentage of desktop users who spend money on apps or even use apps at all, it does not give developer much incentives. When there is no money, there is no apps. It's as simple as that.
    It's something you should raise as a concern to Microsoft. Microsoft should make a deal with google to use their ads on the platform. I think that ms need to also do a better job educating users on the store and how to access it as well add proper usage of the start screen. Could be little tutorial videos that pop up on first install. Currently most users installing windows 10 are likely still using old pcs and probably not investing much more into them. Mite likely people who will be purchasing new pc's/laptops,etc are likely to be more invested into something new. That will take a bit of time as the new hardware is still not all here.
    10-25-2015 09:11 PM
  18. illidanx's Avatar
    So are there plans to get Adsense support for universal windows apps?
    It's up to Google to add the Adsense support. Microsoft has no say in the matter.
    10-25-2015 11:17 PM
  19. Arunabha Goswami's Avatar
    Google's vast and superior Adsense network is not available on Windows Store app (it's available only on Windows Phone 8)
    When you say WP8, does it also include WP8.1?
    10-26-2015 01:45 AM
  20. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    It's a perception issue, and the 110 million users already have access to Clash of Clans on their phones seeing as WP is extremely rare and all users are either using iOS or Android.

    Even users themselves don't trust the apps that come with Windows 10. Most of them are a step back in terms of polish and features. Mail downright sucks (no select all! no selection of items in the list using Shift!), Groove feels unfinished, MSN News and Store are unstable and keep showing you blank screens a lot of times, Edge is not ready for prime time, and they scrapped an entire modern design language in favor of basically what feels like a half-baked version of Android.
    I honestly can't remember the last time I felt "delighted" as Microsoft likes to put it, using Microsoft software.

    So the two reasons I think are the fact that the whole thing doesn't project "trust" enough, and developers already have access to their user base on other platforms.
    10-26-2015 01:48 AM
  21. triageatdawn's Avatar
    Coupled that with the low percentage of desktop users who spend money on apps or even use apps at all, it does not give developer much incentives. When there is no money, there is no apps. It's as simple as that.
    Do you think the arrival of Windows 10 on other devices such as Xbox will make any difference? And what about mobile devices from the Surface line and the ones made by Microsoft's third-party partners? Perhaps those users will have a much greater need for apps. Or so I think.
    10-26-2015 07:10 AM
  22. garak0410's Avatar
    Despite Windows 10 being adopted at a massive rate, it seems developers are tepid as to the prospect of creating apps. In some cases, existing 8.1 apps are still left rotting while new apps seem few and far between. We're about 3 months since release with over 110 million installs.

    What is going to convince developers to look at making Universal Windows Apps?

    I know the standard arguments that "why would they, people don't use apps on PC - they have a browser". Heard it, don't need to hear it again.

    I want to know what you think will get developers to make apps? What is the catalyst, beyond sheer volume of users? What else can Microsoft do to make them understand an app is superior to web experience?

    I think games would be the obvious winner here. Games are a perfect fit for the volume of users and Win10 Store. I cannot for the life of me fathom why Supercell refuses to put Clash of Clans on Win10 - why wouldn't they want to get access to millions of users across PC/Phone/Tablet and ultimately Xbox?
    Wow...you pose a difficult question. First up, yes, there are 100 million installs of Windows 10. Nice. But who are these users? I'm installing it at work but we use Office, AutoCAD, Dynamics. The users who use the store are just using it for iHeartRadio and the like.

    When I look at the average user now, their phone is their PC. We can't argue that that people want easy and portable. They want apps for this and that and they tend to spend less time on a PC that it was before smartphones took off. They want the apps! There is no denying that...

    I will always have a PC myself. My tower is my main media/file server which I access on the go via Plex and OneDrive. I do heavy video editing on it. When I have TIME to play games, I prefer PC gaming. My XBOX One is primarily a Media Center for me. My Surface Pro 3 is really my MAIN PC

    I've been a Windows Phone user since "Mobile 6.5"...I have to say, since test driving a Note 5, I've used my PC less and less. I've used both Excel and Word to work on things on the go, used my Stylus to take notes on OneNote, listened to tunes on Groove (though it isn't that great on Android) and used Cortana for reminders. It has been hard to want to go back to the ICON, even if for the better OS. The Android feels more like a PC in my pocket. But also more of a distraction because of more apps. Though decision on which one will be my daily driver for now.

    But back on topic, I really think less people care about a PC and more about mobile and being on the go. Microsoft has made good decisions to bring their mobile apps to other platforms...sadly, it doesn't help our beloved Windows Phone and Universal apps as a whole. Maybe I am wrong but by now, I would have thought Astoria and Islandwood would be buzzing big time by now. So tired of WAITING!
    10-26-2015 08:09 AM
  23. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I think two things:

    1. They might just wait on those compilers for Android and iOS, that's less work on their end.
    2. Microsoft seemed to expect devs to be stupid or something. That 110+ million is almost all on PC. The apps are still treated as second-class pieces of software on PC-based Windows 10, in a way. I've only every fired up, like, 3 (Weather, MLB At-Bat, and Xbox). Developers almost certainly realize that a lot of those numbers are padded by groups who aren't using the apps on W10 PCs, they're just tacked on to the experience.
    10-26-2015 08:37 AM
  24. illidanx's Avatar
    When you say WP8, does it also include WP8.1?
    Yes, but only if you are building a WP8.1 Silverlight app, not a WP8.1 app that shares code with W8.1 (aka the old "universal app").
    Arunabha Goswami likes this.
    10-26-2015 09:58 AM
  25. illidanx's Avatar
    Do you think the arrival of Windows 10 on other devices such as Xbox will make any difference? And what about mobile devices from the Surface line and the ones made by Microsoft's third-party partners? Perhaps those users will have a much greater need for apps. Or so I think.
    Xbox could make a difference because there are already a lot of users on xbox but Microsoft has to open the Xbox store for developer submission first. They won't do that until some time in 2016. At the moment no one knows what the requirement of the xbox store is going to be. I think they are going to be much stricter than the regular windows store. Xbox users would benefit the most from games and emulator apps but I'm not sure if the later will be allowed.

    I don't think mobile devices from surface line and third-party partners will make a difference unless a lot of people buy them. That is not likely to happen because there are no apps. This is still same chicken-and-egg problem as it has ever been on windows phone.
    triageatdawn likes this.
    10-26-2015 10:07 AM
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