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03-02-2012 04:48 PM
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  1. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    I've tweeted Joe Belfiore (who never answers me, but at least I feel like I'm sending something to someone) that Microsoft needs to control the update process. It is really disturbing that they basically lied about the update process and they feel it's OK just because "the update will be rolled into the next update"....REALLY? So do the other updates on Android (basically), and it's sad Apple is the only company that can handle this.

    Is anyone else with me in letting Microsoft know that this is ridiculous....?
    soulzero likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:09 AM
  2. selfcreation's Avatar
    i dont get what the issue is??

    i have no problem with the update system?? what problem are you talking exactly(related to WP)?


    you talk about apple not having problems , i dont think you realize when IOS5 came out Apple had more problems then anything . lol , people lost all info , system crash , system froze , servers overloaded ect.. lol)
    02-27-2012 10:19 AM
  3. HeyCori's Avatar
    We need to let AT&T know how we feel about the update process, and we need to do it repeatedly and en masse. The problem with AT&T is that they're not afraid to lose customers because only a handful of them know (or care) about how crappy their update system is. Maybe if they saw a sizable group filing complaints then perhaps they would get off their butts.
    02-27-2012 10:26 AM
  4. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    I am saying that when Apple has an update ready for ios devices that THEY push and the carriers have little involvement (if any at all). With Windows phones we are at the mercy of the carriers like Android.

    I had an iPod touch and know how bad ios5 is, but at least when they rolled it out it rolled out to everyone nearly at the same time. For us, we have to hack our phones like Android to get updates pushed by the people who actually made the OS instead of the middleman.
    02-27-2012 10:28 AM
  5. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    We need to let AT&T know how we feel about the update process, and we need to do it repeatedly and en masse. The problem with AT&T is that they're not afraid to lose customers because only a handful of them know (or care) about how crappy their update system is. Maybe if they saw a sizable group filing complaints then perhaps they would get off their butts.
    My thoughts exactly (although I'm on Tmobile). The issue is that carriers know that most people don't know what an update is, so they don't "waste time" updating and sit on their butts and push iPhone and Android....

    The only reason I'm putting up with it right now is that Windows Phone is the best option for me right now while not being committed to a contract with my Lumia 710 and the bugs aren't as bad as they were on Android, and the this is the best OS by far as far as looks and natural use. However, I'm not one to settle, and when an OS has a flaw I call it out....
    speedtouch likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:30 AM
  6. aubreyq's Avatar
    i dont get what the issue is??

    i have no problem with the update system?? what problem are you talking exactly(related to WP)?


    you talk about apple not having problems , i dont think you realize when IOS5 came out Apple had more problems then anything . lol , people lost all info , system crash , system froze , servers overloaded ect.. lol)
    The issue is that a lot of US WP owners don't have the 8107 update, which corrects the freakin disappearing keyboard problem as well as fixes some security issues. BTW, the iOS 5 wasn't as disastrous as how you paint it to have been, plus Apple responded swiftly.

    We need to let AT&T know how we feel about the update process, and we need to do it repeatedly and en masse. The problem with AT&T is that they're not afraid to lose customers because only a handful of them know (or care) about how crappy their update system is. Maybe if they saw a sizable group filing complaints then perhaps they would get off their butts.
    I know how I will tell AT&T how I feel about their phone update process:
    By moving to another carrier when my contract expires in November of this year

    Also, if this sh*tty update process applies to all carriers, I know how I'll deal with it:
    By switching to iOS. At least Apple has better control of the update process

    I am saying that when Apple has an update ready for ios devices that THEY push and the carriers have little involvement (if any at all). With Windows phones we are at the mercy of the carriers like Android.

    I had an iPod touch and know how bad ios5 is, but at least when they rolled it out it rolled out to everyone nearly at the same time. For us, we have to hack our phones like Android to get updates pushed by the people who actually made the OS instead of the middleman.
    I agree and I feel your pain.

    However, I'm not one to settle, and when an OS has a flaw I call it out....
    Calling the flaws out is only fair. More people should do it.
    Shane and Speebs like this.
    02-27-2012 10:37 AM
  7. scottcraft's Avatar
    I think it really stinks that an update for the keyboard has been released for a while and the only way I can get it is by hacking. This is so annoying. Who do I need to talk to?

    Sent from my Windows7 Phone using Board Express
    aubreyq and Mr_pither like this.
    02-27-2012 10:40 AM
  8. mattpga's Avatar
    Yes. Lets tell them. I'm also getting fed up with my keyboard disappearing, and no update in sight from Orange UK who have 'no information' on a release date. I feel like i've been misled by MS on this.
    02-27-2012 10:42 AM
  9. scottcraft's Avatar
    In regards to the apple updates, way more people were trying to update there iPhones at one time compared to the minuscule amounts of WP trying to update to mango.

    Sent from my Windows7 Phone using Board Express
    aubreyq likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:42 AM
  10. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    The issue is that a lot of US WP owners don't have the 8107 update, which corrects the freakin disappearing keyboard problem as well as fixes some security issues. BTW, the iOS 5 wasn't as disastrous as how you paint it to have been, plus Apple responded swiftly.


    I know how I will tell AT&T how I feel about their phone update process:
    By moving to another carrier when my contract expires in November of this year

    Also, if this sh*tty update process applies to all carriers, I know how I'll deal with it:
    By switching to iOS. At least Apple has better control of the update process


    I agree and I feel your pain.


    Calling the flaws out is only fair. More people should do it.
    Thank you. I'm not crying for perfection, but good Lord its so close that I might as well. Something as simple as controlling the update process, providing more clarity on things, and actually keeping promises will keep current users until Mucrosoft and OEMS "get themselves together". Then when the fireworks begin new users will come in and have more reasons to stick with the platform...
    aubreyq likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:44 AM
  11. HeyCori's Avatar
    I know how I will tell AT&T how I feel about their phone update process:

    By moving to another carrier when my contract expires in November of this year

    Also, if this sh*tty update process applies to all carriers, I know how I'll deal with it:

    By switching to iOS. At least Apple has better control of the update process
    T-Mobile does a really good job pushing out updates. They released 8107 weeks ago. Shame they lack the higher end WPs. Sprint and Verizon clearly don't care about Windows Phone. AT&T says they're the "premier" Windows Phone carrier but they sure don't act like it. But I tell ya,T-Mo getting all that spectrum thanks to that failed buyout attempt by AT&T, their network is looking better and better.
    02-27-2012 10:44 AM
  12. aubreyq's Avatar
    T-Mobile does a really good job pushing out updates. They released 8107 weeks ago. Shame they lack the higher end WPs...T-Mo getting all that spectrum thanks to that failed buyout attempt by AT&T, their network is looking better and better.
    I think T-Mo doesn't have the higher end WPs because they thought the AT&T buyout was going to happen. I'm curious about T-Mo's future here in the US. They don't have the iPhone, no premium Windows Phones, etc. What a crappy situation to be in, huh? Perhaps it'll be a while before the situation settles with them. The spectrum deal thing will hopefully help them.

    ...Sprint and Verizon clearly don't care about Windows Phone. AT&T says they're the "premier" Windows Phone carrier but they sure don't act like it.
    Well, thanks to Sprint and Verizon being a-holes about their approach to WP, AT&T is acting as the ONLY WP carrier, which puts them in a position to blow their customers off with a "What are you gonna do about it?" approach. Think about it, where will WP users go? Not Sprint nor Verizon for now (unless you want a 2-year old phone). That only leaves T-Mo, but we know the phones THEY get :'(
    1jaxstate1 likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:54 AM
  13. canesfan625's Avatar
    Lol. Switch to iOS because of their update process? Lol

    Edit - for some reason people don't seem to be understanding that the veto ability only applies to minor updates.
    02-27-2012 11:02 AM
  14. selfcreation's Avatar
    well

    first of all:

    - there are reasons why carrier roll out updates and NOT MS directly. beside this only affect us on major updates ( Nodo , mango , tango , apollo ) anything in between is 100% RTM or OEM's fault for being slow , not MS.

    ( my carrier launch ALL the updates im not missing one , lucky Canada i guess)

    - you should e-mail AT&T not MS ( MS rolls out the update to all carriers at same time,) At&T already has the key bored update/ Tethering and all that goodness....

    its ether not out yet cause AT&T simply sucks (lol ) or because of the QUEUE system they have to prevent problems like apple

    ( and honestly i know at lease 20people that had problems with the update to Ios 5 +an extra 40clients i spoke too , if that sounds like a good update to you .. lol ok .. )

    - Minor carrier updates or OEM updates ( like key bored problem) again most of us got it . e-mail your carrier..

    i never waited more then 4 dayz for an update , lucky for us we have force update.
    Last edited by Se1fcr3ation; 02-27-2012 at 11:12 AM.
    02-27-2012 11:05 AM
  15. dannejanne's Avatar
    Do not blame MS. Blame your carrier.
    02-27-2012 11:18 AM
  16. theefman's Avatar
    The way carriers control the update is because they dont approve it. Microsoft is the one with the infrastructure in place via Zune to physically push it but has given control to the carriers by allowing them to approve updates which was obviously a compromise they had to make to get WP on their networks. Anyone who thinks their carrier is the one actually releasing an update to their phone is mistaken.

    When it comes to OEM devices, there are exceptions but it seems they are more likely to release all updates. My DVP which is labelled as Generic-US received 7740 and 8107 promptly. My other DVP which is labelled T-Mo US is still on 7720.

    Solution? Buy/import an unlocked, unbranded, free of carrier contamination device. Sadly in the US the problem is two fold - there are hardly any options for the GSM carriers at&t and Tmo, and the average consumer wont pay more than $200, whereas unlocked phones are normally substantially more expensive. So the market in the US is virtually non-existent and the carriers know this and do everything they can to block it.

    In Europe, you are able to buy carrier-free, with contract, or even carrier-free + contract at stores like phones4u, carphonewarehouse, expansys, etc giving you the choice.

    Two hopes remain, though its only a hope, and that is when WP8 hits Nokia will be able to produce pentaband phones that can be imported to the US, like they have been doing on Symbian for years before they moved to WP. For people like me, that is the ideal solution but sadly for the vast majority that isnt feasible.

    Secondly, Tmobile has recently stated that they will be refarming their network to offer HSPA+ on the 1900 band which opens up the market for unlocked at&t phones, but there you will still be subject to at&t's update schecule as it will still be a carrier phone, though SIM unlocked.

    So basically, if you live in the US you are screwed if you want regular updates for WP. Its not as hackable as android or Windows Mobile to load custom roms so really you are left at the carrier's whim. And in this respect, Microoft has definitely not fulfilled the promise implied about Windows Phone updates being available to all but realistically there doesnt seem to be anything we or Microsoft can do about it.
    02-27-2012 11:57 AM
  17. Reflexx's Avatar
    MS knows that we're not happy about it. But their hands are tied here. The carriers have all the leverage and all the power.

    If MS tries a power play, all carriers have to do is say, "Fine. We're not going to carry your phones anymore."

    MS won't have leverage until WP catches on. And WP won't catch on unless the carriers are on board with it.
    02-27-2012 11:59 AM
  18. selfcreation's Avatar
    The way carriers control the update is because they dont approve it. Microsoft is the one with the infrastructure in place via Zune to physically push it but has given control to the carriers by allowing them to approve updates which was obviously a compromise they had to make to get WP on their networks. Anyone who thinks their carrier is the one actually releasing an update to their phone is mistaken.

    When it comes to OEM devices, there are exceptions but it seems they are more likely to release all updates. My DVP which is labelled as Generic-US received 7740 and 8107 promptly. My other DVP which is labelled T-Mo US is still on 7720.

    Solution? Buy/import an unlocked, unbranded, free of carrier contamination device. Sadly in the US the problem is two fold - there are hardly any options for the GSM carriers at&t and Tmo, and the average consumer wont pay more than $200, whereas unlocked phones are normally substantially more expensive. So the market in the US is virtually non-existent and the carriers know this and do everything they can to block it.

    In Europe, you are able to buy carrier-free, with contract, or even carrier-free + contract at stores like phones4u, carphonewarehouse, expansys, etc giving you the choice.

    Two hopes remain, though its only a hope, and that is when WP8 hits Nokia will be able to produce pentaband phones that can be imported to the US, like they have been doing on Symbian for years before they moved to WP. For people like me, that is the ideal solution but sadly for the vast majority that isnt feasible.

    Secondly, Tmobile has recently stated that they will be refarming their network to offer HSPA+ on the 1900 band which opens up the market for unlocked at&t phones, but there you will still be subject to at&t's update schecule as it will still be a carrier phone, though SIM unlocked.

    So basically, if you live in the US you are screwed if you want regular updates for WP. Its not as hackable as android or Windows Mobile to load custom roms so really you are left at the carrier's whim. And in this respect, Microoft has definitely not fulfilled the promise implied about Windows Phone updates being available to all but realistically there doesnt seem to be anything we can do about it.

    i saw an article from NOKIA saying that they are going to start selling ALL their WP Carrier Unlocked for American Sales. not sure if its true , but if it is.. ( i know they do it in Europe ) my budy WON a Nokia 800 from TELUS (here in Canada) and hes getting it unlocked as well P:) ( normal they dont unlock it)


    NO MORE PROBLEMS!! for Nokia users any ways . lol :P
    02-27-2012 12:06 PM
  19. theefman's Avatar
    i saw an article from NOKIA saying that they are going to start selling ALL their WP Carrier Unlocked for American Sales. not sure if its true , but if it is.. ( i know they do it in Europe ) my budy WON a Nokia 800 from TELUS (here in Canada) and hes getting it unlocked as well P:) ( normal they dont unlock it)


    NO MORE PROBLEMS!! for Nokia users any ways . lol :P
    Unfortunately, its the other way round, in NA at least. They said this and no WP site picked up on it, probably because they didnt want to upset the carriers. If Nokia has made a turnaround that would be great but I doubt it.

    Nokia Abandoning Unlocked Strategy in Favor of Selling Phones Through Carriers
    02-27-2012 12:17 PM
  20. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    MS knows that we're not happy about it. But their hands are tied here. The carriers have all the leverage and all the power.

    If MS tries a power play, all carriers have to do is say, "Fine. We're not going to carry your phones anymore."

    MS won't have leverage until WP catches on. And WP won't catch on unless the carriers are on board with it.
    This has been what I believe as well. In that case, may I argue this:

    Carriers don't seem too enthused about Windows Phone with the way the current system works. Microsoft handed over some power in exchange for the "promise" that Windows Phone will be supported; it clearly is not. How many horror stories (and based off my own personal experience) have we walked into a store only to find that carriers are pushing us away from Windows Phone if we inquire about them. A large part of this is Microsoft's fault for not marketing and showing carriers how to advertise Windows Phone (or even more....what the OS actually is, as I've even seen carrier reps go as far as calling it Windows Mobile and believe it is the same thing just a new "skin").

    At this point, Microsoft should just say to heck with it and start handling it themselves IMHO. Obviously they're so confident in Apollo (and whatever else up they have up their sleeve) that they don't think they need to be transparent with it's current Windows Phone user base (yea, basically us on the forums), so why wait (if they are) until Apollo drops to iron out the update process. I think Microsoft did great with Mango, and even though that was because it was a major update, these others should be no different.

    Bug fixes are what let your users know you care and are at least attempting to make progress, and with people swaying on the edge of getting a different device with a different OS because of lack of options and bugs that never get updated, it's only a recipe for people leaving. I'm not saying Microsoft should give us EVERY SINGLE status update on what they're doing, but it's clear that they know that WE KNOW what OS versions are out there and why.

    Again, I'm a Windows Phone user all the way and love the OS, but things are starting to feel a little more Androidish. The OS isn't some unfinished intern-project with Fisher Price cartoon looking grid of icons; it's simple, beautiful, and smoother than even iOS devices. It has elements baked in (Bing Music and Vision are my favs) that are just genious, but when you only have a small percentage of people using that (that even a lot of THOSE USERS are hanging by a thread) then you need to work hard to keep them satisfied.....
    aubreyq likes this.
    02-27-2012 12:22 PM
  21. selfcreation's Avatar
    Unfortunately, its the other way round, in NA at least. They said this and no WP site picked up on it, probably because they didnt want to upset the carriers. If Nokia has made a turnaround that would be great but I doubt it.

    Nokia Abandoning Unlocked Strategy in Favor of Selling Phones Through Carriers
    well they dont mention Canada , we still have hope :P lol , i dont really care doh i got my upgrade comming up and a Nice Lunia 900!!! haha and my carrier actually rolls out updates on time , lol
    02-27-2012 12:25 PM
  22. speedtouch's Avatar
    T-Mobile does a really good job pushing out updates. They released 8107 weeks ago. Shame they lack the higher end WPs. Sprint and Verizon clearly don't care about Windows Phone. AT&T says they're the "premier" Windows Phone carrier but they sure don't act like it. But I tell ya,T-Mo getting all that spectrum thanks to that failed buyout attempt by AT&T, their network is looking better and better.
    Not quite. 8107 was only released to the Radar. Not any other T-Mobile WP7 device. Like my HTC HD7 or my wife's Lumia 710...

    *sigh*

    Carriers totally suck.
    02-27-2012 12:37 PM
  23. scottcraft's Avatar
    Lol. Switch to iOS because of their update process? Lol

    Edit - for some reason people don't seem to be understanding that the veto ability only applies to minor updates.
    well

    first of all:

    - there are reasons why carrier roll out updates and NOT MS directly. beside this only affect us on major updates ( Nodo , mango , tango , apollo ) anything in between is 100% RTM or OEM's fault for being slow , not MS.

    ( my carrier launch ALL the updates im not missing one , lucky Canada i guess)

    - you should e-mail AT&T not MS ( MS rolls out the update to all carriers at same time,) At&T already has the key bored update/ Tethering and all that goodness....

    its ether not out yet cause AT&T simply sucks (lol ) or because of the QUEUE system they have to prevent problems like apple

    ( and honestly i know at lease 20people that had problems with the update to Ios 5 +an extra 40clients i spoke too , if that sounds like a good update to you .. lol ok .. )

    - Minor carrier updates or OEM updates ( like key bored problem) again most of us got it . e-mail your carrier..

    i never waited more then 4 dayz for an update , lucky for us we have force update.
    I'm not saying I'm going to switch to an iPhone over updates and I'm not saying people didn't have problems updating to iOS 5 (even though I updated my wife's phone with no problems), but when Apple has an update it is release to all carriers, not AT&T now, Verizon a month later and Sprint somewhere in the middle. I've had a disappearing keyboard since the mango update in September or October, whenever it was. To some it may not be a big deal, but it really screws up the user experience for me. I'm not going to switch phones over the update, but add that to some other things that bug me and I do think about it.
    aubreyq and speedtouch like this.
    02-27-2012 07:32 PM
  24. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    I'm not saying I'm going to switch to an iPhone over updates and I'm not saying people didn't have problems updating to iOS 5 (even though I updated my wife's phone with no problems), but when Apple has an update it is release to all carriers, not AT&T now, Verizon a month later and Sprint somewhere in the middle. I've had a disappearing keyboard since the mango update in September or October, whenever it was. To some it may not be a big deal, but it really screws up the user experience for me. I'm not going to switch phones over the update, but add that to some other things that bug me and I do think about it.
    My thoughts exactly....

    I won't switch to an iPhone until I see Microsoft comepletly giving up basically (or if either OS undergoes a dramatic UI overhaul....especially Android)
    02-27-2012 08:59 PM
  25. aubreyq's Avatar
    Bug fixes are what let your users know you care and are at least attempting to make progress, and with people swaying on the edge of getting a different device with a different OS because of lack of options and bugs that never get updated, it's only a recipe for people leaving. I'm not saying Microsoft should give us EVERY SINGLE status update on what they're doing, but it's clear that they know that WE KNOW what OS versions are out there and why.

    Again, I'm a Windows Phone user all the way and love the OS, but things are starting to feel a little more Androidish. The OS isn't some unfinished intern-project with Fisher Price cartoon looking grid of icons; it's simple, beautiful, and smoother than even iOS devices. It has elements baked in (Bing Music and Vision are my favs) that are just genious, but when you only have a small percentage of people using that (that even a lot of THOSE USERS are hanging by a thread) then you need to work hard to keep them satisfied.....
    Couldn't have said it better myself :)

    I'm not saying I'm going to switch to an iPhone over updates and I'm not saying people didn't have problems updating to iOS 5 (even though I updated my wife's phone with no problems), but when Apple has an update it is release to all carriers, not AT&T now, Verizon a month later and Sprint somewhere in the middle. I've had a disappearing keyboard since the mango update in September or October, whenever it was. To some it may not be a big deal, but it really screws up the user experience for me. I'm not going to switch phones over the update, but add that to some other things that bug me and I do think about it.
    And that's been my issue all along. If my experience is soured, why would I continue on the platform if things don't get fixed on a timely manner?
    speedtouch likes this.
    02-27-2012 10:16 PM
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