07-03-2014 04:24 AM
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tools
  1. linking1990's Avatar
    They are a lot of people that love the skinned tile idea. I am one of them. At first I didn't, now I do. I would have supported your cause IF you said "give us the ability to also have backgrounds" but by saying don't give us skinned tiles, I have no interest in supporting your cause.
    I am not against having more options, but I know Microsoft won't give us both; it's too confusing. Latest leaks suggest that Microsoft is testing this with multiple methods, but they are going to stay with one.

    The reality of it is that, with the skinned tiles, better customization is achieved. Only a few pictures can work behind the tiles but a lot can work as skinned tiles. No offence to your concept but it looks too busy and the homescreen does indeed look cluttered.
    Sir, you know, if you think of all the pictures that wouldn't be applicable in the skinned tiles method, you would end up with loads and loads of pictures that cannot work. Simply, any picture with a white background within won't be applicable, cause text won't be readable on your tiles.

    Also, if you didn't have as many tiles which are theme-colored, you won't see nothing from the background that you set. I don't want to re-arrange my tiles in a way that they can show the background. The background must complete my homescreen the way it is, not force me into changing everything for it's sake alone.

    Imagine if someone wanted to use a picture of her baby as her background picture. Behind the tiles, it would just be pointless. With the skinned tiles it would make more sense.
    Let me just post an example of a picture with the skinned tiles and one behind the tiles
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71272517_o.jpg
    Your example lacks spacing that is set to be created by tiles grouping. Also, you are forgetting that the background shows in the applist as well. I never said that all the backgrounds in the world could be applicable, but I can give you a *1000 times pictures that won't work in your method, including the one that you posted, because it has white spaces.
    03-04-2014 04:01 AM
  2. linking1990's Avatar
    For your first point: With the notification center coming, you don't need as many live tiles on your startscreen as before. Also, what's the point of having a background image when you never get to see it cause of all the tiles covering it?

    For your second point: Then people would be wise and choose a better picture. With this method, you can use any picture you like and you are not just restricted to one picture. And we haven't seen it in action yet so we cannot tell if MS has thought of a solution for that as well.

    I'm also not against more options but I like the skinned tiles options now. I was so against it at first but now I like it and can see it working. If MS can give us both, fine but I wouldn't want the skinned tile option to go
    Please have a look at this and tell me it isn't better looking:

    8_1-2-.jpg

    I never said this method can be applicable to every background out there, but don't tell me it doesn't work.
    03-04-2014 04:06 AM
  3. linking1990's Avatar
    I just put tiles on my screen that I use and group them how I wish but with no gaps, I don't see the point. I treat WP like WP, not like an icon based system. I see where the problem lies.
    If you have used Windows 8, you would know why it's important to have tiles grouping and semantic zoom.

    Please watch this:



    Windows Phone has a problem when you have a long list of pinned tiles. You would keep looking for anything wasting time, not gonna happen if you organize your tiles in groups and have quick access to them with Semantic zoom, it's the answer to Android's pinch out, which brings all the home screens together.

    start-mockup-2.jpg vs tip02.jpg
    03-04-2014 04:11 AM
  4. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    I am not against having more options, but I know Microsoft won't give us both; it's too confusing. Latest leaks suggest that Microsoft is testing this with multiple methods, but they are going to stay with one.
    All leaks seem to go towards skinned tiles atm and from many other sites, you know, sites that aren't dedicated to only windows users, people seem to like the idea a lot more than having it at the background



    Sir, you know, if you think of all the pictures that wouldn't be applicable in the skinned tiles method, you would end up with loads and loads of pictures that cannot work. Simply, any picture with a white background within won't be applicable, cause text won't be readable on your tiles.


    Also, if you didn't have as many tiles which are theme-colored, you won't see nothing from the background that you set. I don't want to re-arrange my tiles in a way that they can show the background. The background must complete my homescreen the way it is, not force me into changing everything for it's sake alone.
    Chances of a picture working with skinned tiles are far greater than working behind the tiles. You don't see anything behind the tiles just the top bezel. And you're fully aware this is optional right? You're not being forced to do anything. You don't even need to rearrange your tiles to see something when you have the image behind the tiles because you wont be able to see anything as long as it is behind the tiles. Apps are going to be optimized to make the skinned tiles work better.

    Your example lacks spacing that is set to be created by tiles grouping. Also, you are forgetting that the background shows in the applist as well. I never said that all the backgrounds in the world could be applicable, but I can give you a *1000 times pictures that won't work in your method, including the one that you posted, because it has white spaces.
    Funny how the initial problem with WP was too much bezel but now you want it back JUST so your background method can work. So far, the only thing you can saw against skinned tiles is it wont work on a white background(and we are yet to see how it's going to be implemented but you know for certain how it's going to work. sigh). And so far, the only samples of behind the tiles that have worked so far have been background colors, not images, colors. Very little customization would be achieved with the behind the tile implementation and that defeats the purpose of having a background image in the first place
    03-04-2014 04:45 AM
  5. Jonas_H's Avatar
    All leaks seem to go towards skinned tiles atm and from many other sites, you know, sites that aren't dedicated to only windows users, people seem to like the idea a lot more than having it at the background
    Exactly what I noticed when I showed the skinned tiles to users that have nothing to do with WP. They all like it very much!
    meddyrainzo likes this.
    03-04-2014 04:50 AM
  6. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    Please have a look at this and tell me it isn't better looking:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I never said this method can be applicable to every background out there, but don't tell me it doesn't work.
    I didn't say "It doesn't work" I said it hardly works. It is very limited. So what would happen to those moving from other devices who want to use their pictures for their startscreen background only to be limited to just colors. This would just add another limitation to the limitation woes of WP. Skinned tiles work better as they give better options.
    WP has a lot of other problems for MS to dwell heavily on this. Adding pre loaded backgrounds would not be what would sell WPs. Telling people they can now have backgrounds behind the tiles only for it to be covered fully by the tiles would not sell WP. Showing people that they can further customize their WPs by having a picture replace the tile accent color would be a lot more exciting than a couple of extra colors behind the tiles.
    You keep on saying a white picture would cause problems but in my example you could read the the messages properly. I use glasses and even without them, i had no problem reading the messages so even your white background point has been disproved
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71272517_o.jpg

    Many people would be more than willing to rearrange their tiles just to get their startscreen to look a lot prettier.
    03-04-2014 04:53 AM
  7. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    Exactly what I noticed when I showed the skinned tiles to users that have nothing to do with WP. They all like it very much!
    I've seen mostly positive reactions to it. The voting system for this is flawed because he didn't post what the skinned tiles would look like and have people compare. And he links the vote page on basically every article on various sites that don't even have anything to do with it. So we have people voting when they don't even know what the alternative looks like.

    Skinned tiles is way more attractive than limited colors on behind the tiles
    Jonas_H likes this.
    03-04-2014 04:56 AM
  8. taymur's Avatar
    I cant agree more that the picture just posted looks amazing.... really good, I would love to have that option. but its just following other OSs, which is just boring.

    the transparent tiles feel more new and fresh of an experience! and why not have both.... then everyone will be happy :D
    03-04-2014 05:01 AM
  9. Dafter's Avatar
    With half transparent tiles would be nice! :)
    taymur likes this.
    03-04-2014 05:16 AM
  10. linking1990's Avatar
    I didn't say "It doesn't work" I said it hardly works. It is very limited. So what would happen to those moving from other devices who want to use their pictures for their startscreen background only to be limited to just colors. This would just add another limitation to the limitation woes of WP. Skinned tiles work better as they give better options.
    WP has a lot of other problems for MS to dwell heavily on this. Adding pre loaded backgrounds would not be what would sell WPs. Telling people they can now have backgrounds behind the tiles only for it to be covered fully by the tiles would not sell WP. Showing people that they can further customize their WPs by having a picture replace the tile accent color would be a lot more exciting than a couple of extra colors behind the tiles.
    You keep on saying a white picture would cause problems but in my example you could read the the messages properly. I use glasses and even without them, i had no problem reading the messages so even your white background point has been disproved
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71272517_o.jpg

    Many people would be more than willing to rearrange their tiles just to get their startscreen to look a lot prettier.
    First of all, you have to know something. I am not against skinned tiles entirely, I find it a viable option which WP needs in the terms of customization. I wouldn't mind having both options you know, but I know for sure it won't happen. Let's just say that my favorite of the two is having a real background, and I am convinced that this is the way to go, not only because it's more beautiful - in my opinion-, but also it keeps the experience consistent in other MS's OSs (Windows 8).

    If you read the news, you'd find that WP is rumored to merge eventually with Windows during 2015. This thing drives them further apart than gets them closer.

    Having backgrounds behind the tiles is the way to go for me, it's more real, more convenient, and can be combined with tiles grouping easily. If you had similar wallpapers to Windows 8, it can also have parallex effect when scrolling, it would take the experience to an entire new level.

    Believe me, WP needs this wow factor, I got about 20 people in my life change to WP, they all like it at the beginning, but then say that it's boring. Many people get sick of the black and white backgrounds, not only on the start, but in the app list, settings, messaging, etc.. You can get easily bored by all this.

    Think of the bigger picture regarding this, not only on your preference, and BTW, the image that you are showing and comparing doesn't contain a complete white background, when it does, even with your glasses you won't be able to read nothing from the tiles.

    Talking about what WP lacks, it's all coming (almost) in 8.1, so it's a matter of refining the experience now.
    03-04-2014 05:41 AM
  11. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    First of all, you have to know something. I am not against skinned tiles entirely, I find it a viable option which WP needs in the terms of customization. I wouldn't mind having both options you know, but I know for sure it won't happen. Let's just say that my favorite of the two is having a real background, and I am convinced that this is the way to go, not only because it's more beautiful - in my opinion-, but also it keeps the experience consistent in other MS's OSs (Windows 8).

    If you read the news, you'd find that WP is rumored to merge eventually with Windows during 2015. This thing drives them further apart than gets them closer.

    Having backgrounds behind the tiles is the way to go for me, it's more real, more convenient, and can be combined with tiles grouping easily. If you had similar wallpapers to Windows 8, it can also have parallex effect when scrolling, it would take the experience to an entire new level.

    Believe me, WP needs this wow factor, I got about 20 people in my life change to WP, they all like it at the beginning, but then say that it's boring. Many people get sick of the black and white backgrounds, not only on the start, but in the app list, settings, messaging, etc.. You can get easily bored by all this.

    Think of the bigger picture regarding this, not only on your preference, and BTW, the image that you are showing and comparing doesn't contain a complete white background, when it does, even with your glasses you won't be able to read nothing from the tiles.

    Talking about what WP lacks, it's all coming (almost) in 8.1, so it's a matter of refining the experience now.

    Like I said before, OSX and iOS are basically merged but they don't have the same look. Merging both OSes -from what I understand- has more to do with a unified store and ability to interact with windows 8 via wp8. Looking identical is not a must. Far from it.

    If, like I and Jonas_H have mentioned, other smartphone users find the skinned tiles more attractive(their comments have made that clear for the most part), then isn't this the better option? Shouldn't you be the one looking "at the bigger picture and not your personal preference"?

    Having extra colors behind the tiles isn't a wow factor. Matter of fact, you will be left with a bunch of disappointed people who were looking to have their picture on the startscreen "finally" and instead are just left with more colors to choose from. I don't know about you but imagine having the multicolor you used above all over your settings page and people hub and all that...that would just be a clustered mess.
    Furthermore, you speak of unification of W8 and WP8 but W8 just has a white background on their settings menu and all. Won't that be contradicting your point that they should look almost exactly the same? The backgrounds don't extend past the start screen. Even on the app list, all you're left with is color of the background you chose.

    The same way people can easily get bored by black and white colors is the same way they would easily get bored of other colors.Heck, people are even bored of accent colors. Being able to use pictures they take everyday would never be boring. Again, like you advised, think of the bigger picture
    03-04-2014 05:57 AM
  12. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Still do not want all those buttons on tiles. Backgrounds and zoom effects like Windows 8 is ok. But not the tiles skinning. That's not present on Windows 8, so why introduce it in Windows Phone 8? Those buttons are not in Windows 8, why cram them in Windows Phone 8?

    Aren't Blue and Threshold, supposed to be updates that brings Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 closer and make them alike? How is this going to make it any closer? This will mean more UI re-skinning for Threshold update instead of bringing them into an unified OS. I would rather have unified store and OS over such trivial UI changes that clutter my screen.
    03-04-2014 06:00 AM
  13. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    Still do not want all those buttons on tiles. Backgrounds and zoom effects like Windows 8 is ok. But not the tiles skinning. That's not present on Windows 8, so why introduce it in Windows Phone 8? Those buttons are not in Windows 8, why cram them in Windows Phone 8?

    Aren't Blue and Threshold, supposed to be updates that brings Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 closer and make them alike? How is this going to make it any closer? This will mean more UI re-skinning for Threshold update instead of bringing them into an unified OS. I would rather have unified store and OS over such trivial UI changes that clutter my screen.
    Again, making them alike has little to do with appearances. People would be more satisfied with a unified experience and different looks than similar looks and a disjointed experience
    03-04-2014 06:03 AM
  14. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    If you have used Windows 8, you would know why it's important to have tiles grouping and semantic zoom.

    Please watch this:

    Windows Phone has a problem when you have a long list of pinned tiles. You would keep looking for anything wasting time, not gonna happen if you organize your tiles in groups and have quick access to them with Semantic zoom, it's the answer to Android's pinch out, which brings all the home screens together.
    Sorry I keep forgetting that people like making things more complex than is necessary. I don't see a need for grouping tiles on my phone like you have shown. I don't see the need of having a ridiculously long tile list either. My start screen is about efficiency and about accessing things I need to on a regular basis. You know, that's what WP was designed for. I don't need 'everything' on my screen and I don't need or want groups. So to me, WP8 is not like WRT or W8. It's a different format. That may change in the future but at this stage I don't see a requirement for what you want.

    That is my opinion. If you want groups, go for it. If you want backgrounds and think they're great, fine. If want skinned tiles fantastic.

    I really don't care personally as I'm not going to use any of it. My phone is about simplicity not for showing off. I use my phone, I don't stare at it all day. I don't need flashy crap. I don't want the battery drain from it.

    That's my opinion about it. It seems utterly pointless to me but by all means have it as an option for those who feel they need it. However, I won't vote for it because as I stated, I see it as pointless and I don't see any added value to having any of it. There's a lot more important things than flashy crap.
    TripsG, meddyrainzo and Verkunder like this.
    03-04-2014 06:13 AM
  15. LTTG's Avatar
    I'd like both options TBH.
    Because if we're getting skinned tiles, we can get more accent colors!
    meddyrainzo and F3rzz like this.
    03-04-2014 06:16 AM
  16. meddyrainzo's Avatar
    I'd like both options TBH.
    Because if we're getting skinned tiles, we can get more accent colors!
    Boom! Customization with the skinned tiles is only limited to the user. Things are gonna be awesome!
    F3rzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 06:22 AM
  17. Morpheus Phreak's Avatar
    I cant agree more that the picture just posted looks amazing.... really good, I would love to have that option. but its just following other OSs, which is just boring.

    the transparent tiles feel more new and fresh of an experience! and why not have both.... then everyone will be happy :D
    They are not transparent tiles, they are skinned tiles. Transparent tiles would provide a view to something behind them. In this case the only thing behind them is the black or white background...which isn't showing through at all.

    Sorry I keep forgetting that people like making things more complex than is necessary. I don't see a need for grouping tiles on my phone like you have shown. I don't see the need of having a ridiculously long tile list either. My start screen is about efficiency and about accessing things I need to on a regular basis. You know, that's what WP was designed for. I don't need 'everything' on my screen and I don't need or want groups.
    1. It's only your opinion that it's more complex, not a fact. So don't act snarky like you won a victory.
    2. You don't see a need, but someone else does.
    3. You don't see a need, but someone else does.
    4. Your start screen, not theirs.
    5. Actually WP was designed to help users organize things in a way that makes sense to them...and if that means a long start screen, then that is what fits best for them.
    6. You may not, but someone else might.


    So taking away from this entire post LaRUE what I'm seeing is a pattern of it doesn't matter to you, then no one else should have it matter to them or get what they want. I'm very glad we don't live in that world. :)
    linking1990 likes this.
    03-04-2014 06:57 AM
  18. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So taking away from this entire post LaRUE what I'm seeing is a pattern of it doesn't matter to you, then no one else should have it matter to them or get what they want. I'm very glad we don't live in that world. :)
    I see, so why not get an Android phone then? Customize the crap out of it?

    The whole point of the Metro interface was simplicity. So we're veering away from that now. Fine. As I said in my post, which you appeared not to read other than to point out that I'm snarky, is that 'in my opinion' it's pointless. I also said that if you want flashy crap you can have it. I don't really care.

    Options are great but I find it sad that WP is going away from the initial ideas. Sorry if that offends you and others. Have your backgrounds and skinned tiles. Enjoy the battery drain. :)
    rockstarzzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 07:40 AM
  19. Morpheus Phreak's Avatar
    I see, so why not get an Android phone then? Customize the crap out of it?

    The whole point of the Metro interface was simplicity. So we're veering away from that now. Fine. As I said in my post, which you appeared not to read other than to point out that I'm snarky, is that 'in my opinion' it's pointless. I also said that if you want flashy crap you can have it. I don't really care.

    Options are great but I find it sad that WP is going away from the initial ideas. Sorry if that offends you and others. Have your backgrounds and skinned tiles. Enjoy the battery drain. :)
    So basically as I said...what you want matters...and screw everyone else.

    Geez am I glad that no one like you has ever worked on the Windows Phone team. I would have had to beat my head against a wall at work everyday if that were the case...
    03-04-2014 07:46 AM
  20. Huime's Avatar
    So this is how kids now works eh?

    Simple, this is just not your turn. Sit tight and wait for yours.

    Let the tiles skin guys enjoy their moment.
    03-04-2014 08:11 AM
  21. linking1990's Avatar
    I see, so why not get an Android phone then? Customize the crap out of it?

    The whole point of the Metro interface was simplicity. So we're veering away from that now. Fine. As I said in my post, which you appeared not to read other than to point out that I'm snarky, is that 'in my opinion' it's pointless. I also said that if you want flashy crap you can have it. I don't really care.

    Options are great but I find it sad that WP is going away from the initial ideas. Sorry if that offends you and others. Have your backgrounds and skinned tiles. Enjoy the battery drain. :)
    There is a fine line between simplicity and functionality. I am an engineer, and from all people we understand this the most. Making an engineering decision requires a good balance between this and that; everything in this world comes with advantages and disadvantages, so an engineering decision must create a good balance for the perfect, most balanced solution.

    In the case of simple vs functional, I find metro to be overly simplistic, in a way that degrades functionality. Having a simple system has great advantages, but it also comes with lots of disadvantages, which most important is functionality. No one wants a simple system that cannot do simple tasks good enough, also, no one wants a complex system that users get confused from.

    In this case, I vote for having more functionality, out of a simple system, without ruining it's personality, in which I believe skinned-tiles do. I think Microsoft also agrees with me, as all the things I am demanding are already found in Windows 8.

    Hope you understand me well enough.
    03-04-2014 08:25 AM
  22. TripsG's Avatar
    So this is how kids now works eh?

    Simple, this is just not your turn. Sit tight and wait for yours.

    Let the tiles skin guys enjoy their moment.
    He's got a designers heart for sure and I've applauded him in previous posts. But the attitude of "THIS is how it should be and it should be NOW damnit" doesn't work in the real world! The first thing any designer needs to learn is the world works at an engineers speed and there is absolutely nothing you can do to change that. Once you learn to work within the boundaries of an engineer, while still pushing them lest they get bored, you will find the ultimate success. The second thing any designer needs to learn is to buy them cookies. Engineers really like cookies.
    F3rzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 08:28 AM
  23. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So basically as I said...what you want matters...and screw everyone else.

    Geez am I glad that no one like you has ever worked on the Windows Phone team. I would have had to beat my head against a wall at work everyday if that were the case...
    Where did I say that? I said I personally don't care but you can have what you want. Obviously you have a reading comprehension problem. :/

    Let me try very simple English for you.

    I (meaning me), would love everyone to have all the options they want on the phone, however I (meaning me again) won't use options that seem utterly pointless to me. I (meaning me yet again) find it sad that we're going backwards with things and making things complex just for the sake of it. I (yep me again) think most people never got the philosophy of the Metro interface and that's why we keep having these threads of people begging to skin the start screen (like Android or Symibian) because people seem to feel WP 'lacks' something rather than appreciating it for what is. That was my (yes me here) point from the start. Sorry you (meaning whoever) don't seem to get it.

    Again, have your (yep you) options all you want, go crazy. I (meaning me) won't appreciate them. It's because I (me again) see it going backwards rather than forward. You might not get that but that's the way I (meaning me) see it.

    Hopefully that is a bit clearer? I'm not a phone OS developer and I have no say whatsoever what will be put in the phone. So it is all my opinion. As I said from the get go. I didn't realise I couldn't have those and that liking the start screen the way it is was so offensive to you. Sorry.
    F3rzz likes this.
    03-04-2014 08:31 AM
  24. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    There is a fine line between simplicity and functionality. I am an engineer, and from all people we understand this the most. Making an engineering decision requires a good balance between this and that; everything in this world comes with advantages and disadvantages, so an engineering decision must create a good balance for the perfect, most balanced solution.
    I'm an engineer to. Even says it on my job description.

    In the case of simple vs functional, I find metro to be overly simplistic, in a way that degrades functionality. Having a simple system has great advantages, but it also comes with lots of disadvantages, which most important is functionality. No one wants a simple system that cannot do simple tasks good enough, also, no one wants a complex system that users get confused from.

    In this case, I vote for having more functionality, out of a simple system, without ruining it's personality, in which I believe skinned-tiles do. I think Microsoft also agrees with me, as all the things I am demanding are already found in Windows 8.

    Hope you understand me well enough.
    That's your opinion. You're entitled to that. Just like I am to mine.
    03-04-2014 08:33 AM
  25. linking1990's Avatar
    He's got a designers heart for sure and I've applauded him in previous posts. But the attitude of "THIS is how it should be and it should be NOW damnit" doesn't work in the real world! The first thing any designer needs to learn is the world works at an engineers speed and there is absolutely nothing you can do to change that. Once you learn to work within the boundaries of an engineer, while still pushing them lest they get bored, you will find the ultimate success. The second thing any designer needs to learn is to buy them cookies. Engineers really like cookies.
    Haha, well, I am no designer. In fact, I am a Mechatronics Engineer. I agree that my attitude wasn't the best, but I swear that's cause I am so passionate about WP.

    You see, I've used WP since I've got my HD2, and I won't trade it for anything else in the market, but it kills to see lots and lots of people demands that Microsoft take ages for it to listen, and when they do, it's not what you were waiting for -for me at least-.

    I managed to switch 20 people of whom I know to WP, and I know this for sure, that all of them get bored from it after a while, because "it lacks customization". Microsoft is listening now, and they decided they need to step up the game, but with a decision that -for me- takes the personality of WP and throws it in the trash! SWISH!

    I know that to each with his opinion, it's a matter of discussing ideas, but this thread was meant for people who agree with me. I understand that many wouldn't like that, but hey, start another thread and discuss ideas in there. This is what forums is about.
    03-04-2014 08:36 AM
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