06-21-2013 04:31 PM
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  1. HeyCori's Avatar
    E3 is essentially over. It’s unlikely that Microsoft or Sony will make any other game changing announcements before the fall. For the past three days I’ve been reflecting on what my friends have said about Microsoft’s new DRM scheme. I’ve also been listening too gaming journalists, tech writers, bloggers and fellow forum members as well. And the more I think about it, the less concerned I become about DRM.

    Do I want DRM? No, of course not. No one does. But I never realized how much I was already supporting DRM. My last couple of Xbox 360 purchases were titles that I can never trade in. I picked up Alan Wake for digital download. I can’t trade that in. I’m stuck with that forever. I can’t trade Dust: An Elysian Tale. It’s an awesome game, no doubt, but I don’t see myself playing it multiple times. Regardless, I can’t get rid of that either.

    The same goes for Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, Mark of the Ninja, The Walking Dead, Puzzle Bobble, Peggle and several other non-transferable titles. Heck, why even limit it to just 360 games? How about Windows 8/phone titles like Angry Birds, Cut the Robe, Gravity Guy or Rayman Jungle Run? And let’s not even get started on the 20+ titles I’ve purchased between Steam/Amazon/Apple App Store.

    The simple fact is that I was never going to see another dime back for any of those titles and that never stopped me from purchasing them. In fact, I told myself that I was going to purchase even more downloadable titles because there are a ton of games that I still want to pick up through digital download.

    I stopped being concerned once I realized that DRM wasn’t going to change my buying habits. The majority of games I’ve purchased in the past couple of years have DRM, I just never stopped to think about it because no one was ringing an alarm. Now the alarm is being rung and it’s so loud that I had to reevaluate my shopping habits. The conclusion is that the things that have changed are more of an annoyance than a show stopper.

    Maybe Microsoft will support digital trade-ins but I’m still going under the assumption that I’m stuck with my digital downloads forever, just like on my 360. I can still trade in my disc based games with the added catch that it has to be with an authorized retailer. I know the big fear is that this will kill the local mom and pop stores, though the logic gap is the assumption that local shops won’t also join Microsoft’s trade-in program. But fear mongering aside, can I still trade in my disc based games? Yes. And finally, sharing games have taken on a new twist. I can share them with “family” or I can permanently give them away. I’ve loaned games out before but rarely to people I don’t know. The ten family members I share with should easily cover any games I want to loan out. Either way, the impact on my buying habits is minimal.

    Sony didn’t help out either. A lot of games that Sony showed at E3, that were originally believed to be Sony exclusives, turned out to be multi-platform titles. I’m talking huge games like MGS5, Final Fantasy, and Kingdom Hearts. Combine the entire list of multi-platform games with Microsoft’s current exclusives and the XO’s lineup is starting to look pretty nice.

    Again, do I want DRM? No. Will it absolutely destroy my gaming life? It hasn’t so far. Doubtful it will in the future.

    Then again, I’m also buying both consoles because choosing only one system is so 2006, lol.
    Last edited by HeyCori; 06-13-2013 at 04:54 PM.
    06-13-2013 09:18 AM
  2. martinmc78's Avatar
    Finally - a post with more common sense in it than almost anything I have read since Monday

    Its not the first time I've said it HeyCori - You need to get your own blog going.
    06-13-2013 09:26 AM
  3. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    Only the internet is bothered by this. Luckily, 95% of things the internet hates, like the Transformers franchise, is very successful
    06-13-2013 09:34 AM
  4. Frantz Eliscard's Avatar
    Hey, what u said makes a lot of sense. But the issue is not about DRM that cost $2 or $20, we are talking about DRM that will cost between $64 to $100 (include exclusive special editions). Yeah DRM is not a problem for you but it might be for gamers who really don't have a job and are living with parents. These gamers are teenagers and all teens share their games. And one more thing, this forum was forward to me by a friend who is indeed a xbox fan, he is trying to convince me to stay with xbox because I decided to go to Playstation because of DRM. But then I notice that this forum is being run by Microsoft (MS). So it hit me why is this forum is on a MS website because I know the author of this blog don't want to sound bias. Even if he says at the end he will get both system, to me it feels he's trying a little too hard to convince me he's not bias on a MS run website. Try posting this forum on a non-bias website and have fans from both Sony and Microsoft voice thier opinion. Because DRM affect all gamers as a whole.
    06-13-2013 12:33 PM
  5. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    The issue isn't that simple. Yeah, you don't mind that some of your games and DLC are locked down, but when it's ALL of your games, it is different. The inability to trade in games (which I know isn't the actual case with the new Xbox) would be a legitimate problem when you're paying $60 for each title. Normally, I'll get maybe 3 games for $60 in a given year. However, when GameStop had a buy 2, get 1 free sale a couple of years ago, I went and purchased 6 games (2 were free), all for $10 or less, I think. If I had to buy ANY of those titles at $60, I would have passed on buying any of them. In addition, if trading in games is lost, it hurts the amount of money I have to spend on games. If I buy 3 games at $60, I can trade them in for probably about $20 each at the time I'll want to get rid of them. If I do that, I can trade in 2 of them and put $20 of my money towards a fourth game. I'll be willing to spend maybe $20 or $40 after one trade-in, but not $60 on the game itself.

    I myself have never spent more than about $15 on a digital download, and that would have been Counter-Strike: Global Offensive on Steam. All of the digital titles I bought on Xbox 360 were XBLA games (such as Frogger, Beat Hazard, Galaga, and other retro arcade titles), each of which was $5-10. I don't have a problem with the presence of DRM when it doesn't ruin game-buying options. People talk trash about DRM, but they love Steam because they do such a great job of making PC gaming even CHEAPER than non-DRM (to an extent) game buying on consoles. We don't care that we can't trade in Steam titles because we didn't put much money into them. Microsoft has to follow that model. If they do, I might be on-board with the new Xbox, but the current state of things has me waiting several months to see how it works before I consider a purchase.
    06-13-2013 12:35 PM
  6. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Hey, what u said makes a lot of sense. But the issue is not about DRM that cost $2 or $20, we are talking about DRM that will cost between $64 to $100 (include exclusive special editions). Yeah DRM is not a problem for you but it might be for gamers who really don't have a job and are living with parents. These gamers are teenagers and all teens share their games. And one more thing, this forum was forward to me by a friend who is indeed a xbox fan, he is trying to convince me to stay with xbox because I decided to go to Playstation because of DRM. But then I notice that this forum is being run by Microsoft (MS). So it hit me why is this forum is on a MS website because I know the author of this blog don't want to sound bias. Even if he says at the end he will get both system, to me it feels he's trying a little too hard to convince me he's not bias on a MS run website. Try posting this forum on a non-bias website and have fans from both Sony and Microsoft voice thier opinion. Because DRM affect all gamers as a whole.
    This isn't a Microsoft-run website or forum. This is an independent site that focuses on Windows Phone. It has sister sites dedicated to the other 3 mobile platforms as well (iOS, Android, and Blackberry), and they're all under the Mobile Nations banner.

    Yes, this is the Microsoft OS forum, but that does not make this a Microsoft-run site. Oh, and don't think that it means that everyone here is an apologist and fanboy when it comes to everything Microsoft. I love my Windows Phone, Windows 8 desktop, and Xbox 360, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't like the current state of the new Xbox.
    06-13-2013 12:39 PM
  7. stevearsenault's Avatar
    Maybe Microsoft will support digital trade-ins but I’m still going under the assumption that I’m stick with my digital downloads forever, just like on my 360. I can still trade in my disc based games with the added catch that it has to be with an authorized retailer.
    It just seems odd that you could get money for the disc, which is nothing more than a code to download the digital game, but then not get anything for the actual game itself. I really wish Microsoft would clarify this because frankly, it makes no sense.
    06-13-2013 12:49 PM
  8. onysi's Avatar
    The issue isn't that simple. Yeah, you don't mind that some of your games and DLC are locked down, but when it's ALL of your games, it is different. The inability to trade in games (which I know isn't the actual case with the new Xbox) would be a legitimate problem when you're paying $60 for each title. Normally, I'll get maybe 3 games for $60 in a given year. However, when GameStop had a buy 2, get 1 free sale a couple of years ago, I went and purchased 6 games (2 were free), all for $10 or less, I think. If I had to buy ANY of those titles at $60, I would have passed on buying any of them. In addition, if trading in games is lost, it hurts the amount of money I have to spend on games. If I buy 3 games at $60, I can trade them in for probably about $20 each at the time I'll want to get rid of them. If I do that, I can trade in 2 of them and put $20 of my money towards a fourth game. I'll be willing to spend maybe $20 or $40 after one trade-in, but not $60 on the game itself.

    I myself have never spent more than about $15 on a digital download, and that would have been Counter-Strike: Global Offensive on Steam. All of the digital titles I bought on Xbox 360 were XBLA games (such as Frogger, Beat Hazard, Galaga, and other retro arcade titles), each of which was $5-10. I don't have a problem with the presence of DRM when it doesn't ruin game-buying options. People talk trash about DRM, but they love Steam because they do such a great job of making PC gaming even CHEAPER than non-DRM (to an extent) game buying on consoles. We don't care that we can't trade in Steam titles because we didn't put much money into them. Microsoft has to follow that model. If they do, I might be on-board with the new Xbox, but the current state of things has me waiting several months to see how it works before I consider a purchase.
    . I've been a steam user for 8 years since the beginning pretty much and I can tell you that I've only bought at least 4 titles at their launch day. Everything else have been thru sales. Sale prices going down will become a trend for digital downloads. Its just a matter of time.
    HeyCori and MFmonster like this.
    06-13-2013 12:49 PM
  9. onysi's Avatar
    It just seems odd that you could get money for the disc, which is nothing more than a code to download the digital game, but then not get anything for the actual game itself. I really wish Microsoft would clarify this, because frankly it makes no sense.
    I think its the mentality of the consumers. They're not ready for downloads only.
    06-13-2013 12:51 PM
  10. ninjaap's Avatar
    I really don't care too much for the games. I just want it for its media capabilities. :)
    06-13-2013 12:58 PM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    The way I see it is that games will go the way that music and movies have gone. Very few people buy CDs these days, and almost all video stores are out of business, since few people rent DVDs. DVD purchases are also falling dramatically, since more people get their movies from Amazon Prime, iTunes, Xbox Video.

    It will only be natural for the trend of the decline of physical media to extend from music and movies to games.

    Everything will be digital downloads in a few years.

    It doesn't bother me, and I'm old enough to remember: record stores that sold records (before CDs were around), VHS movies in video stores, Atari 2600.
    palandri and Reflexx like this.
    06-13-2013 01:00 PM
  12. Letros's Avatar
    I noticed both consoles have tablet/phone integration, I'm guessing Sony is snubbing WP users by supporting only iOS/Android, so I'm more inclined to buy X1 for Smartglass via WP and Surface.
    06-13-2013 01:05 PM
  13. stevearsenault's Avatar
    I think its the mentality of the consumers. They're not ready for downloads only.
    I actually like that everything is going digital, and trade-ins aren't that big of a deal to me if MS were to adopt the Steam model, as Keith suggested. Now that Xbox One is dumping the Games on Demand in favor of digital downloads from the get-go, I think it behooves them to do better (and more frequent) sales.
    curseoftheninja likes this.
    06-13-2013 01:21 PM
  14. Reflexx's Avatar
    Hey, what u said makes a lot of sense. But the issue is not about DRM that cost $2 or $20, we are talking about DRM that will cost between $64 to $100 (include exclusive special editions). Yeah DRM is not a problem for you but it might be for gamers who really don't have a job and are living with parents. These gamers are teenagers and all teens share their games. And one more thing, this forum was forward to me by a friend who is indeed a xbox fan, he is trying to convince me to stay with xbox because I decided to go to Playstation because of DRM. But then I notice that this forum is being run by Microsoft (MS). So it hit me why is this forum is on a MS website because I know the author of this blog don't want to sound bias. Even if he says at the end he will get both system, to me it feels he's trying a little too hard to convince me he's not bias on a MS run website. Try posting this forum on a non-bias website and have fans from both Sony and Microsoft voice thier opinion. Because DRM affect all gamers as a whole.
    lol

    This forum is not run by Microsoft.
    06-13-2013 01:21 PM
  15. phing77's Avatar
    u should know Sony can't support WP because of Xbox Live right?
    06-13-2013 01:22 PM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    The way I see it is that games will go the way that music and movies have gone. Very few people buy CDs these days, and almost all video stores are out of business, since few people rent DVDs. DVD purchases are also falling dramatically, since more people get their movies from Amazon Prime, iTunes, Xbox Video.

    It will only be natural for the trend of the decline of physical media to extend from music and movies to games.

    Everything will be digital downloads in a few years.

    It doesn't bother me, and I'm old enough to remember: record stores that sold records (before CDs were around), VHS movies in video stores, Atari 2600.
    You just wait... the backlash is coming.

    Consumers want VHS!!!
    06-13-2013 01:22 PM
  17. Letros's Avatar
    Sony can't make Playstation 4 App because the phone has Xbox Live on it?
    06-13-2013 01:39 PM
  18. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    Also, no one has seen any of this in action. Blizzard has been doing worse than this for over a decade. This is all over reaction. No one said you couldn't trade in games.
    06-13-2013 01:54 PM
  19. _Emi_'s Avatar
    Hey, what u said makes a lot of sense. But the issue is not about DRM that cost $2 or $20, we are talking about DRM that will cost between $64 to $100 (include exclusive special editions). Yeah DRM is not a problem for you but it might be for gamers who really don't have a job and are living with parents. These gamers are teenagers and all teens share their games. And one more thing, this forum was forward to me by a friend who is indeed a xbox fan, he is trying to convince me to stay with xbox because I decided to go to Playstation because of DRM. But then I notice that this forum is being run by Microsoft (MS). So it hit me why is this forum is on a MS website because I know the author of this blog don't want to sound bias. Even if he says at the end he will get both system, to me it feels he's trying a little too hard to convince me he's not bias on a MS run website. Try posting this forum on a non-bias website and have fans from both Sony and Microsoft voice thier opinion. Because DRM affect all gamers as a whole.
    and this is how wrong you are... (you only got 1 post, so I don't expect you to even read what I will say anyway)
    but with xbox one, now IS legal to share and give the game to your friends (if publishers allows you to). if you ever read what you agreed when you purchased a game, you NEVER owned the games, you only had the right to play them. but it was not legal to resell and share your games. now with xbox one you can legally do all that! (so how is this wrong?)

    you talk about how DRM affects gamers, but what about piracy and used games affect game publishers? have you seen how many publishers have disappeared in past few years? maybe it wasn't all used gamed fault, but it surely didn't help, because people could play the game without publishers getting any money from it, the only one getting money was a store like gamestop for example, NOT the ones that paid millions of millions to studios to develop and then bring games to your hands. Publishers are here for money! not to exactly make people happy with a new game, they want money and that's why they decided to work as a game publisher. so is it fair they never got the money they deserved because some people once they completed the game, they would go and resell it? and the other people who thought it was cool and cheap just buying used games without thinking they were not helping the game publisher.
    this DRM Microsoft is putting in xbox one, will let you use used games, sell your used games, share your games with 10 people around the world, give your game to a friend, it will let you play on any xbox console around the world, it will let people play your games and you don't have to be logged in. its not like its taking away much from gamers.... in fact, its opening a new way, a legal way to share your games and resell your games and play games around the world without affecting so much publishers (because for example, publisher can get some money from used games now).

    Maybe im pro gaming publishers/developers because im kinda linked to that. so I don't see much problem in a uniform, DRM system that will let you share and resell games (because remember, steam doesn't let you do that, iOS, WP, Android, Windows 8. wont let you either! but xbox one will let you share and sell your games). but I don't understand why people want to get to play games, when they are obviously affecting publishers, yeah maybe they have millions of millions so one used game wouldn't affect them so much. BUT they still spent money on it, paying studios, making deals. so they deserve the money if you want to play the games they are publishing. and again, games you never owned and most of the time, it was not legal to resell them or even share them, so in paper, Microsoft is not taking away any right from you... its GIVING YOU rights instead! like again: sharing, resell, etc etc games.

    Anyway, Im not annoyed about this DRM Xbox One has, in fact, it can even bring prices down in xbox one games, that's something we don't know yet.
    of course it is just my opinion and I will be buying XO, this if not next year! and I will enjoy the nice technology and innovation Microsoft is putting on it. without thinking if their DRM is right or not, because to me its fine.
    06-13-2013 04:06 PM
  20. ncxcstud's Avatar
    Just as a question - how many of you actually let your friends borrow your games often?

    I can count - on one hand - how many times I've either borrowed or lent a game to a friend and I've been a 360 owner since November 2005. Even when I was a teenager I didn't lend out my SNES, Genesis, or N64 games... I just didn't do it. Mostly because games are expensive and I didn't want a friend to wreck my copy or be responsible for ruining a friend's game. Plus, on the N64, SNES, and Genesis I sure as heck wasn't going to lend a game out so my friends could delete my save file...

    I gather a lot of the reaction on lending games to friends isn't so much that people did it very often, but they view it as something being 'taken away' (that they never did) as an infringement on their right as a gamer. Similar to Sony removing the ability to install Linux on the PS3. I'm sure there was a MINUSCULE amount of users that actually took advantage of that feature. But, once they made that announcement people were in an uproar about it.
    06-13-2013 04:56 PM
  21. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Just as a question - how many of you actually let your friends borrow your games often?

    I can count - on one hand - how many times I've either borrowed or lent a game to a friend and I've been a 360 owner since November 2005. Even when I was a teenager I didn't lend out my SNES, Genesis, or N64 games... I just didn't do it. Mostly because games are expensive and I didn't want a friend to wreck my copy or be responsible for ruining a friend's game. Plus, on the N64, SNES, and Genesis I sure as heck wasn't going to lend a game out so my friends could delete my save file...

    I gather a lot of the reaction on lending games to friends isn't so much that people did it very often, but they view it as something being 'taken away' (that they never did) as an infringement on their right as a gamer. Similar to Sony removing the ability to install Linux on the PS3. I'm sure there was a MINUSCULE amount of users that actually took advantage of that feature. But, once they made that announcement people were in an uproar about it.
    As of today, my brother-in-law has had my copy of Fallout 3 at his house for probably 3 months or more (he doesn't play it much). My cousin has my copy of Black Ops II, and has for a few weeks now (he left his copy at a friend's and is too lazy to go get it). I don't let people borrow my games a LOT, but I let them do it for long stretches of time, simply because I am not playing that particular game at that particular moment in time. That, and my friends to whom I'd lend games to in the past are in the military and nowhere near me (one is 6+ hours away, the other is at-sea).
    06-13-2013 05:01 PM
  22. absonj's Avatar
    Ok, my two cents in. I don't usually let folks borrow my games, because its too easy to loose, scratch, or have some other catastrophe occure. With that said, I have been blessed to be able to purchase, on occasion, an extra copy so that a friend who may not be able to afford the game can jump online and the two of us can play co-op. I also do the same on a more extended level with my kids. I do realize that I am an exception, not the norm.

    Now, from my understanding is that you will be able to let up to 10 friends or family borrow your game? I don't know exactly how that will work, is it only on the primary account, or can your friend play the newest Halo at his house off your copy while you play a different game at your home? I think its a wait and see what happens thing.

    I am actually looking forward to being able to stick ALL my games on the cloud and play them where-ever I go. I take the X with me whenever I go out of town, and often times the wife stays home. I will probably have to get two X1's since the wife and I will play online or just use the Live account to chat. Thats another reason to buy more than one copy of a particular game. So if we are able to 'borrow' like I hope, I will actually save money!
    06-13-2013 06:21 PM
  23. Ridemyscooter86's Avatar
    What I don't really understand is why everyone is bashing MS about the 24 hour internet check-ins and the used game policy but everyone automatically trusts Sony (one of the worst companies in the past when it comes to DRM). I mean, all sony has said is that its up to the publishers to enforce DRM if they choose to or not, and my guess is that ALL of the publishers are going to enforce DRM. In some ways I could actually see it being worse on the PS4 because Sony hasn't set any limits about what the publishers can do, so if they want to do something draconian, like what EA did for sim city where you can't even play the game without a constant internet connection, then by all means, EA could very well enforce that policy on all of their games.

    I guess personally the reason why the DRM issue for the Xbox One doesn't bother me is because I'm a PC gamer and I've been using steam for years and you can't share games either and even though its offline check-ins are once a week, its only mildly better than once a day for the Xbox One. Also, I guarantee you that Sony won't allow you to share digitally purchased games, nor does anyone really for that matter of fact, but I don't think people in general realize how quickly physical media is dying: I mean, and this is just in my own case, but I think the last time I actually bought a disc for a game was about a year ago, and thats probably it...

    The truth is that sony played their cards right when it came to the PR so they look like the heroes of gaming right now, but I don't see why everyone is automatically trusting them and saying that everything is going to be fine when they have left the DRM to the Publishers. Remember that this is coming from a company that has installed rootkits into people's computers with out them knowing about it and the same company that offered linux support on their last console and then about 2 years after the PS3 launched, they came out with an update that dropped support. What I'm trying to say is given sony's track record, how do you know that in a years time they won't give the PS4 an update and now you can't share used games, it sounds absurd, but remember sony has done stuff like this in the past too.
    HeyCori likes this.
    06-13-2013 06:34 PM
  24. ninjaap's Avatar
    06-13-2013 06:42 PM
  25. NaNoo123's Avatar
    Sony may be leaving it up to publishers but I'd be very surprised if any bother with single player online drm.
    If they do, people can just not buy those games.
    Single player/offline games publishers will take the hit and push digital distribution as quickly as possible.
    Its one of the reasons they will push cloud integration wether its needed or not in single player.
    06-13-2013 06:44 PM
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