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12-29-2014 05:20 PM
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  1. jonnaver's Avatar
    Windows Mobile to Windows Phone is just two completely different animals. Using their early versions of Windows Mobile to suggest they've had plenty of time is just silly.

    Apple revolutionized the market when they launched the iPhone in 2007. From 2007 on, the market has been completely flipped on it's head. Anything that existed in the industry before 2007 was made obsolete overnight.

    Since WP was launched 3 years after the iPhone, it's very fair to say MS has had a lot less time to add features, and make it as powerful as Android or iOS.
    While I'll agree that they're different beasts, the fact remains that MS has been in the mobile sphere for a very long time. That they chose to scrap wm and start over and then do it again to wp7 isn't an excuse, it's poor decision making, planning, organization. Yes the market was flipped on it's head. Who failed to respond to that in a timely manner? Blackberry and Microsoft. I don't believe it's fair to say they've had less time considering the resources they have at their disposal.

    Are you aware that Android when it was first developed was all set to launch with hardware and software more similar to the Blackberry devices of the time? This was just prior to the launch of the iPhone. They scrapped the whole thing and redid it based on the success of the iPhone and did so quite rapidly. That was two years prior to WP7. MS took 3 years just to go from wm to wp7.

    In my opinion WP has now reached a state of being an OS that rivals iOS and Android. The problem now is the timing of it. They needed to be where they are now about 2 years ago and I think they could have easily achieved that under better leadership. Now due to timing they're faced with battling against firmly entrenched mind share.
    JamesPTao, Silence#WP and neo158 like this.
    11-13-2014 12:51 PM
  2. spaulagain's Avatar
    While I'll agree that they're different beasts, the fact remains that MS has been in the mobile sphere for a very long time. That they chose to scrap wm and start over and then do it again to wp7 isn't an excuse, it's poor decision making, planning, organization. Yes the market was flipped on it's head. Who failed to respond to that in a timely manner? Blackberry and Microsoft. I don't believe it's fair to say they've had less time considering the resources they have at their disposal.

    Are you aware that Android when it was first developed was all set to launch with hardware and software more similar to the Blackberry devices of the time? This was just prior to the launch of the iPhone. They scrapped the whole thing and redid it based on the success of the iPhone and did so quite rapidly. That was two years prior to WP7. MS took 3 years just to go from wm to wp7.

    In my opinion WP has now reached a state of being an OS that rivals iOS and Android. The problem now is the timing of it. They needed to be where they are now about 2 years ago and I think they could have easily achieved that under better leadership. Now due to timing they're faced with battling against firmly entrenched mind share.
    Have you met Microsoft? Ya, they don't move fast. At least not in the past. MS up until the past few years has been a massive ship that has moved very slowly and had a hard time making strategic changes quickly.

    So yes, MS failed to change quickly enough.

    To be fair, it wasn't just Microsoft and Blackberry, we had WebOS, Palm OS, etc.

    And you mention Android taking a massive shift. That was the case, but Android was also a complete mess when it launched. Literally, a disaster. The reason it took off was not because Google put time and money into, but because the OEMs and Carriers put money into it. Because it was open source, other companies could leverage their own resources and business concepts. Shaping Android into the clusterfvck it is now. That's why you see Google scrambling now to repair and unify Android.

    Apple is the only company in this industry that has had a solid, continuous strategy throughout it's mobile platform.
    11-13-2014 12:59 PM
  3. jonnaver's Avatar
    Have you met Microsoft? Ya, they don't move fast. At least not in the past. MS up until the past few years has been a massive ship that has moved very slowly and had a hard time making strategic changes quickly.

    So yes, MS failed to change quickly enough.

    To be fair, it wasn't just Microsoft and Blackberry, we had WebOS, Palm OS, etc.

    And you mention Android taking a massive shift. That was the case, but Android was also a complete mess when it launched. Literally, a disaster. The reason it took off was not because Google put time and money into, but because the OEMs and Carriers put money into it. Because it was open source, other companies could leverage their own resources and business concepts. Shaping Android into the clusterfvck it is now. That's why you see Google scrambling now to repair and unify Android.

    Apple is the only company in this industry that has had a solid, continuous strategy throughout it's mobile platform.
    Fair enough, I pretty much agree
    11-13-2014 01:16 PM
  4. tgp's Avatar
    Windows Mobile to Windows Phone is just two completely different animals. Using their early versions of Windows Mobile to suggest they've had plenty of time is just silly.
    Yes, but it also negates the argument that WP should be excused because it's younger. Its developer is Microsoft, who was not exactly the new kid on the block at WP's release. They had, and still have, double the experience time-wise in mobile than both Apple & Google.

    Using their early versions of Windows Mobile to suggest they've had plenty of time is just silly.
    No it's not. Microsoft has been in the mobile business for 14 years. Even if they started over in 2010, the previous 10 years' experience should mean something. You're basically saying that it doesn't.
    Silence#WP and neo158 like this.
    11-13-2014 01:19 PM
  5. Byrese's Avatar
    "I have one word for you: iTunes. That **** is awful."


    X-box music is far worse. So bad, in fact, that I have stopped listening to music on my phone altogether.
    I don't know what's the big fart about X box music. It does the job for me. Does iTunes allow you to stream any song or album for free? I'm asking seriously as I haven't used iTunes in years.
    spaulagain likes this.
    11-13-2014 01:31 PM
  6. Byrese's Avatar
    My first smartphone back in 2010 was a Windows Phone. I've never used an iPhone or Android device.

    I was hanging out with a friend of mine last night and he was showing me his new iPhone 6. I'll have to admit that I was pretty impressed - especially with the hardware. In my opinion, Apple has finally nailed it with their design. They finally have a decent sized phone and they have borrowed all of the elegant design that Nokia pioneered. I have the 925, which I love. iPhone 6 is basically the next logical progression of the 925 as far as design goes.

    The one thing that he was really interested in, regarding Windows Phone, was Cortana. I got to show her off a bit so that was cool and he was pretty impressed.

    However - after playing around with his iPhone - for the first time, I have started thinking about switching over. I started thinking about what I would miss if I left WP for iPhone. The only thing that I could think of was Cortana. iPhone has all the apps and has a gorgeous high-end flagship phone -- available on my carrier (Tmo). Office is there. MS has developed a One Drive app for iPhone so that won't be a problem. Windows Phone has pretty much abandoned the hub concept, so that differentiator is gone. And now they will be getting Cortana. I can just get the iPhone, switch over to iMore, and I don't feel like I would miss a beat.

    As I am sitting here right now, I can't think of a single reason to stay with Windows Phone. And the weird part about it is I'm not even sad about it. In fact, I'm kind of excited!

    What am I missing?
    I do agree that going away from the hub idea and overall OS integration was a mistake. That was a main difference between the two OS.
    11-13-2014 01:37 PM
  7. EBUK's Avatar
    Each to his own! If an iPhone floats your boat, set sail in it. Personally, I thing the iPhone 6 has a horrible design, and even the iPhone 6 users I know agree to some extent. It doesn't fit well in the hand, it is far to shiny and slippery, so unless you put a protective cover on it, expect it to slide out of your fingers quickly.

    The interface isn't great either. You can't remove unwanted icons. At least with WP and Android I can remove icons from the home screen, keeping it neat and tidy. But that aside, price is a consideration, surely. For the price, Windows Phone is very competitive.

    Being new to Windows Phone, having defected from Android, I don't know what the hub is/was, so I can't comment on it.

    I can confidently say that I would never buy an iPhone; I may buy another Windows Phone, and I many return to Android. It the OS - and hardware - do what I want, then that is the system I will chose.
    11-13-2014 01:54 PM
  8. steve_w_7's Avatar
    Tom Warren wrote a great article on this very subject on The Verge today. Microsoft?s Android and iOS focus leaves Windows users in the cold | The Verge

    Here is a snippet:

    "Microsoft is sending a clear message that it wants to reach consumers on popular mobile platforms. Thats an understandable move, but with a lack of a true Windows Phone flagship this holiday and hints that unique features like Cortana will make their way to Android and iOS, it leaves Windows Phone in an odd spot. If all of Microsofts core apps and services work better on Android and iOS, it makes Windows Phone a lot less appealing. If Microsoft cant even make good apps for Windows, there's not a lot of hope left for third-party app developers to build for Microsofts mobile platform. Couple that with the Windows tablet and phone app gap, and the future looks increasingly bleak. Appealing to Android and iOS users might be Microsoft's goal, but there's only so long Windows users will remain loyal."

    I couldn't agree more.
    Silence#WP and neo158 like this.
    11-13-2014 02:47 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I couldn't agree more.
    I couldn't agree less. MS needs to appeal to other platforms and gather feedback. The mistake will be NOT applying the lessons learned into Windows 10.
    spaulagain likes this.
    11-13-2014 03:13 PM
  10. steve_w_7's Avatar
    I couldn't agree less. MS needs to appeal to other platforms and gather feedback. The mistake will be NOT applying the lessons learned into Windows 10.
    Obvious statement. But what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?
    11-13-2014 03:54 PM
  11. steve_w_7's Avatar
    I don't know what's the big fart about X box music. It does the job for me. Does iTunes allow you to stream any song or album for free? I'm asking seriously as I haven't used iTunes in years.
    I don't know if iTunes allows streaming, but in the very near future, neither will XBM.

    Microsoft is ending free Xbox Music streaming | The Verge
    11-13-2014 04:04 PM
  12. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Obvious statement. But what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?
    I was responding to your post in which you agreed with the quote you inserted. I disagreed and stated my reasoning, isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
    11-13-2014 05:41 PM
  13. spaulagain's Avatar
    Yes, but it also negates the argument that WP should be excused because it's younger. Its developer is Microsoft, who was not exactly the new kid on the block at WP's release. They had, and still have, double the experience time-wise in mobile than both Apple & Google.



    No it's not. Microsoft has been in the mobile business for 14 years. Even if they started over in 2010, the previous 10 years' experience should mean something. You're basically saying that it doesn't.
    The previous 10 years don't mean anything. That's exactly what I'm saying. All the methods and concepts implemented before the iPhone were made irrelevant and obsolete. The iPhone completely changed what it meant to have a PC as a phone, or smartphone.

    At the point, every company who had been in that mobile market for the previous 5-10 years needed to start from scratch. The systems they had built up were truly not even close to matching the iPhone or even adaptable.

    That's my point. Every company had to start from scratch after the iPhone was launched. Throwing away all their previous experience. It's why Android was completely changed, it's why BlackBerry finally came out with their overhaul a couple years ago. It's why Palm OS and others essentially washed out, etc.

    Should Microsoft have responded quicker to the iPhone? Yes. Was the 10 years of experience they had before WP7 relevant and applicable to their new OS? No, not at all.
    11-13-2014 05:57 PM
  14. tgp's Avatar
    The previous 10 years don't mean anything. That's exactly what I'm saying. All the methods and concepts implemented before the iPhone were made irrelevant and obsolete. The iPhone completely changed what it meant to have a PC as a phone, or smartphone.

    At the point, every company who had been in that mobile market for the previous 5-10 years needed to start from scratch. The systems they had built up were truly not even close to matching the iPhone or even adaptable.

    That's my point. Every company had to start from scratch after the iPhone was launched. Throwing away all their previous experience. It's why Android was completely changed, it's why BlackBerry finally came out with their overhaul a couple years ago. It's why Palm OS and others essentially washed out, etc.

    Should Microsoft have responded quicker to the iPhone? Yes. Was the 10 years of experience they had before WP7 relevant and applicable to their new OS? No, not at all.
    I don't agree, but your opinion is just as valid as mine.

    Assuming that your opinion is correct, what was Microsoft doing from 2007 - 2010? Why did they keep developing Windows Mobile? Google supposedly started over completely and had something ready in a year or less. There are video clips on YouTube of Steve Ballmer laughing at the iPhone and Android, which I suppose indicates that Microsoft thought they had a winner with WM, but soon discovered that consumers thought otherwise.

    And wasn't WP7 basically WM with a new UI? I thought that they used the same kernel, hence the change with WP8.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    11-13-2014 06:20 PM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Should Microsoft have responded quicker to the iPhone? Yes. Was the 10 years of experience they had before WP7 relevant and applicable to their new OS? No, not at all.
    I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one a bit. Yes, Microsoft was slow in responding to the game changer that was the iPhone, no argument there. When the HD2 was released it showed what WinMo could be on a device with a modicum of RAM and a capacitive screen. WP7 was still WinCE-based and as such, had the "heart and soul" of WinMo in a fluid, eye-pleasing and refreshing OS. MS effed the pooch by stripping all the functionality of WinMo and setting it back a decade. The original 2G iPhone had no MMS, no cut-n-paste and no tethering among other things. Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, thought this was a good idea and reverted to that as well. At least WP7 had MMS. Remember all the "wah wah" (I love that) from WP7 users for not having the same features they enjoyed on WinMo? It wasn't until Mango that we got internet sharing and cut-n-paste back. It wasn't until 8.1 and Update 1 that we got file managers and BT PAN tethering back, respectively. I know I'm in the minority that thinks that WP7 was better at scrolling, much more fluid and faster with most tasks in spite of single-core processors and low RAM. So to say that MS was justified in scrapping their past experience is mistaken, IN MY OPINION.

    I understand that WP7 could not be sustained going forward with the hardware limitations of the newer high-res screens, LTE demands, etc. But I can't help but think which was a bigger mistake, WP7 and its crippled functionality or failing to upgrade WinMo until the NT kernel-based WP8 was ready? WinMo had a ton of apps at the time 6.5 was deep sixed and could have held down the fort sufficiently until WP8 was ready. With shells like SPB around, I'm sure a modern-looking UI wrapper could have been hashed out to compete with Android and iOS during that time. Maybe I just miss all the extraordinary things WinMo could do that the others couldn't at the time. Whatever, I'm ready for some flaming.
    neo158 likes this.
    11-13-2014 06:29 PM
  16. spaulagain's Avatar
    I don't agree, but your opinion is just as valid as mine.

    Assuming that your opinion is correct, what was Microsoft doing from 2007 - 2010? Why did they keep developing Windows Mobile? Google supposedly started over completely and had something ready in a year or less. There are video clips on YouTube of Steve Ballmer laughing at the iPhone and Android, which I suppose indicates that Microsoft thought they had a winner with WM, but soon discovered that consumers thought otherwise.

    And wasn't WP7 basically WM with a new UI? I thought that they used the same kernel, hence the change with WP8.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    Microsoft was working on WP7 for at least two years before it was released from what I heard. And WP7 was a complete rewrite that shared nothing with WM except the kernel which a very small but critical foundation piece. But the whole App environment, the UI, the features, the overall architecture of the OS was completely new and different than WM.

    That was not the with WP7-WP8. While I believe parts of the OS and some of the app environment were rewritten or different than WP7, WP8 was mostly the same OS, same UI, with just a different kernel. But the different kernel was what made upgrading WP7 to 8 too complicated to push out reliable. Hence the second "reset."

    Google changed Android but not as drastically. Android had been in the works for a little while. And don't forget when Android was first release, it was an absolute piece of sh!t. It took well over a year after release before it started shaping up. Plus the main drive for it came from Verizon and the Droid campaign. Keep in mind iPhone wasn't available on Verizon for several years. So Android filled a huge void for the carrier.
    tgp likes this.
    11-13-2014 06:33 PM
  17. JamesPTao's Avatar
    The previous 10 years don't mean anything. That's exactly what I'm saying. All the methods and concepts implemented before the iPhone were made irrelevant and obsolete. The iPhone completely changed what it meant to have a PC as a phone, or smartphone.

    At the point, every company who had been in that mobile market for the previous 5-10 years needed to start from scratch. The systems they had built up were truly not even close to matching the iPhone or even adaptable.

    That's my point. Every company had to start from scratch after the iPhone was launched. Throwing away all their previous experience. It's why Android was completely changed, it's why BlackBerry finally came out with their overhaul a couple years ago. It's why Palm OS and others essentially washed out, etc.

    Should Microsoft have responded quicker to the iPhone? Yes. Was the 10 years of experience they had before WP7 relevant and applicable to their new OS? No, not at all.
    If you don't count Symbian. It still kicked everyone else's *** at the time (including apple) in functionality and ability. The difference is apple made things approachable for the completely computer illiterate and those who didn't want to learn anything other than click to download.
    neo158 likes this.
    11-13-2014 06:35 PM
  18. JamesPTao's Avatar
    I do agree that going away from the hub idea and overall OS integration was a mistake. That was a main difference between the two OS.
    Not at all. I like the hubs. But for windows to quickly improve their platform their was no other choice but to free themselves from the carrier update approval cycle she it came to music and such. I would like to see them back I wp10 but it was a nessesary change for Ms to move forward rapidly.
    neo158 likes this.
    11-13-2014 06:37 PM
  19. spaulagain's Avatar
    I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one a bit. Yes, Microsoft was slow in responding to the game changer that was the iPhone, no argument there. When the HD2 was released it showed what WinMo could be on a device with a modicum of RAM and a capacitive screen. WP7 was still WinCE-based and as such, had the "heart and soul" of WinMo in a fluid, eye-pleasing and refreshing OS. MS effed the pooch by stripping all the functionality of WinMo and setting it back a decade. The original 2G iPhone had no MMS, no cut-n-paste and no tethering among other things. Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, thought this was a good idea and reverted to that as well. At least WP7 had MMS. Remember all the "wah wah" (I love that) from WP7 users for not having the same features they enjoyed on WinMo? It wasn't until Mango that we got internet sharing and cut-n-paste back. It wasn't until 8.1 and Update 1 that we got file managers and BT PAN tethering back, respectively. I know I'm in the minority that thinks that WP7 was better at scrolling, much more fluid and faster with most tasks in spite of single-core processors and low RAM. So to say that MS was justified in scrapping their past experience is mistaken, IN MY OPINION.

    I understand that WP7 could not be sustained going forward with the hardware limitations of the newer high-res screens, LTE demands, etc. But I can't help but think which was a bigger mistake, WP7 and its crippled functionality or failing to upgrade WinMo until the NT kernel-based WP8 was ready? WinMo had a ton of apps at the time 6.5 was deep sixed and could have held down the fort sufficiently until WP8 was ready. With shells like SPB around, I'm sure a modern-looking UI wrapper could have been hashed out to compete with Android and iOS during that time. Maybe I just miss all the extraordinary things WinMo could do that the others couldn't at the time. Whatever, I'm ready for some flaming.
    That may have possible. But WM had been around for a while. Maybe it was too layered and complex to "fix" with a UI reskin. It's hard to say. At my company we have several applications that are just too ****ed up to try and fix. We have to rewrite to move forward.

    That being said, in hindsight, it might have been better for them to have just waited for the new kernel to release WP. It's not like they gained much ground with WP7.
    11-13-2014 06:39 PM
  20. spaulagain's Avatar
    If you don't count Symbian. It still kicked everyone else's *** at the time (including apple) in functionality and ability. The difference is apple made things approachable for the completely computer illiterate and those who didn't want to learn anything other than click to download.
    But that's kind of the whole point. The reason why the iPhone flipped the whole market upside down was not because it had a million cool features no one else had. It's because it was so easy and "fun" to use.

    iOS was brilliant at the time. My friends bough an iPhone when it first came out, they took it to Europe when we studied abroad that year. And everyone just loved it and gawked over it. It literally lit peoples faces up and got them interested in a smart handheld.
    11-13-2014 06:44 PM
  21. JamesPTao's Avatar
    But that's kind of the whole point. The reason why the iPhone flipped the whole market upside down was not because it had a million cool features no one else had. It's because it was so easy and "fun" to use.

    iOS was brilliant at the time. My friends bough an iPhone when it first came out, they took it to Europe when we studied abroad that year. And everyone just loved it and gawked over it. It literally lit peoples faces up and got them interested in a smart handheld.
    As a business decision it was a very good choice. But not every one is a fan of stupifying ever os. With doing so you lose a great amount of functionality for those who know how to use it or are willing to learn.
    11-13-2014 06:48 PM
  22. spaulagain's Avatar
    As a business decision it was a very good choice. But not every one is a fan of stupifying ever os. With doing so you lose a great amount of functionality for those who know how to use it or are willing to learn.
    Power users are a niche market :)
    11-13-2014 06:49 PM
  23. zeemo71's Avatar
    Ok some people who replied have good points, others not so much.
    The main reason why you should stick with WP is windows 10.

    There are two key points to the upcoming OS that make it stand out. One is that it is basically a mix between 7 and 8 with its windows and start button, etc.

    The point thats more important at the moment is that they're going for the same OS for all platforms. Rather that be xbox, WP, desktop, or tablet.
    So if you have a 4 inch screen device or and 80 inch tv with a pc it is the same OS. They wanted to bridge the gap thats been slowing wedging itself in it's customers. I.e. Windows 7 vs 8 (My uncle likes 7 and doesnt want to upgrade, I have 8.1 and I can't stand the older os anymore)

    Its going to bring a new dimension to the windows ecosystem, that frankly should have been implemented ages ago, or rather better.
    That is all.
    11-13-2014 06:49 PM
  24. JamesPTao's Avatar
    Example I love, in a keynote address the late apple CEO when asked why the mouse for apple computers only had one button while windows had two and was going to three answered, we don't want to confuse our users. Really!
    11-13-2014 06:50 PM
  25. andrygun's Avatar
    Tom Warren wrote a great article on this very subject on The Verge today. Microsoft?s Android and iOS focus leaves Windows users in the cold | The Verge

    Here is a snippet:

    "Microsoft is sending a clear message that it wants to reach consumers on popular mobile platforms. That’s an understandable move, but with a lack of a true Windows Phone flagship this holiday and hints that unique features like Cortana will make their way to Android and iOS, it leaves Windows Phone in an odd spot. If all of Microsoft’s core apps and services work better on Android and iOS, it makes Windows Phone a lot less appealing. If Microsoft can’t even make good apps for Windows, there's not a lot of hope left for third-party app developers to build for Microsoft’s mobile platform. Couple that with the Windows tablet and phone app gap, and the future looks increasingly bleak. Appealing to Android and iOS users might be Microsoft's goal, but there's only so long Windows users will remain loyal."

    I couldn't agree more.
    From my opinion, you already set your heart on leaving WP to iPhone :)
    I believe you should do it..

    There will be some adjusting to do (just like how I switched from Android to WP 6 months ago), but you won't make that many compromises considering the fact that iOS is a mature OS.

    If you are a photographer, then you'll miss the camera on lumia. But if you're not, being honest, I don't think there will be anything else that you'll miss :)

    I'll probably see you on the other side one day :p
    Last edited by andrygun; 11-13-2014 at 09:18 PM.
    steve_w_7 likes this.
    11-13-2014 07:09 PM
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