07-23-2015 02:39 PM
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  1. RumoredNow's Avatar
    From Mr Rubino's article: Bloomberg ? Microsoft 'expects to make its own phones for at least the next two years' | Windows Central

    Bloomberg's Dina Bass and Olga Kharif explain the strategy...

    ...Microsoft is likely to exit deals with carriers that are not productive to their bottom line as well:
    "The company also will exit carrier relationships and countries where it hasn't been successful, the person said, although it will continue to sell handsets in the U.S. because of the market's size and significance."
    Good. That is GREAT news and all Windows Mobile fans should rejoice. The carriers have done this platform no favors without taking three of their own in return. Especially in the US. Exclusivity for models and scarcity of availability in stores have pushed this platform away from the consciousness of the consumer. Support for and knowledge of Windows Mobile is severely lacking in carrier stores.

    "Wait," you might say, "Microsoft needs to have their phones in the carrier stores." Not in the way they have been represented. At least not in the US. Having carrier store representatives not understand the OS and shrug indifferently at best and actively hustle customers to competitors with horror stories and inaccuracies at worst does the platform no favors.

    My direct experiences as a Windows Phone enthusiast in carrier stores show me that Windows Phone loses far more customers to staff interference than they could possibly ever hope to gain by having a display which is neglected and ill placed.

    Microsoft should terminate all the carrier shenanigans and sell Unlocked phones directly to those who are aware of what they want; including and especially here in the United States. To those of you on CDMA in the US like Verizon and Sprint, sorry. You have to take the hit on this one. Blame not Microsoft, blame your carrier's mode and activation policies. They do far more to cripple the platform and retard its growth than they could ever do to promote it. I hope that is what the "will continue to sell handsets in the U.S." means - directly. Please do not continue the disastrous relationships with US carriers just to stay in this market. Factory Unlocked for the people.

    Carrier relationships? Kill 'em. Kill 'em with fire and dance around the flames.
    07-08-2015 11:09 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Nokia tried that with its own stores selling unlocked Symbian devices. It never helped Symbian become more than a niche product in the US.

    Sent from my rooted Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    aximtreo, ven07 and teckris like this.
    07-08-2015 11:58 PM
  3. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I looked at the 640 XL variants that have pentaband 3G and over a dozen LTE bands and thought, wow, maybe Msft will go rogue and just sell world phones. That would be fantastic for the platform. All the hoops US carriers have consumers jumping through are OK if you are on Android and there are 16 phones to choose from at the carrier website or if you are Apple and can force your own way in. It killed WP in the US though.

    Look at Icon. Look at 1520 and 830 being exclusive to ATT. It hinders the OS from proliferating.
    07-09-2015 12:26 AM
  4. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I looked at the 640 XL variants that have pentaband 3G and over a dozen LTE bands and thought, wow, maybe Msft will go rogue and just sell world phones. That would be fantastic for the platform. All the hoops US carriers have consumers jumping through are OK if you are on Android and there are 16 phones to choose from at the carrier website or if you are Apple and can force your own way in. It killed WP in the US though.

    Look at Icon. Look at 1520 and 830 being exclusive to ATT. It hinders the OS from proliferating.
    It's worse for BlackBerry. I'm not sure how well they're doing with selling directly to customers on Shop BlackBerry.
    07-09-2015 12:37 AM
  5. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Blackberry has it a bit tougher.

    At least Microsoft has a solid presence in the majority of consumer's lives.
    07-09-2015 12:40 AM
  6. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Blackberry has it a bit tougher.

    At least Microsoft has a solid presence in the majority of consumer's lives.
    That's true. The question would be: how should Microsoft market its phones to consumers if selling directly without carrier involvement?

    Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk
    920Walker, Dr_8820, a5cent and 1 others like this.
    07-09-2015 12:45 AM
  7. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Same way they sell Surface.

    Brick and mortar + web based Microsoft Stores and Electronics retailers. General merchandise chains too. Have you ever looked at all the unlocked phones on Walmart, Target etc. websites?
    07-09-2015 01:05 AM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Same way they sell Surface.

    Brick and mortar + web based Microsoft Stores and Electronics retailers. General merchandise chains too. Have you ever looked at all the unlocked phones on Walmart, Target etc. websites?
    The only online store I really use is Amazon. I've never looked at unlocked Walmart or Target phones, since I'm not interested in budget devices.

    Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk
    Dr_8820 and ven07 like this.
    07-09-2015 01:08 AM
  9. sweeperdk's Avatar
    In Denmark, WIndows Phone is sold both through carriers and through brick & mortar stores.

    The majority are NOT sold through carriers here. Honestly, with correct marketing, I think that that may be the way ahead. I really think that they have potential to do something great, it's a matter of if they do it the correct way.
    07-09-2015 04:51 AM
  10. Dr_8820's Avatar
    I like Windows Phone, I've had one since the Treo 700WX. Microsoft killed themselves with all of the decisions made over the years...they release products and then abandon them and everytime they do, they lose customers. I've always stated that the 1520 is my last try with WP because of my previous experiences. Just think about this: Since 2010, I have purchased 4 phones just to have the latest version of Windows, and would have to buy a 5th because some features won't work on the 1520 when W10 comes out. Most people move on after this stuff.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    07-09-2015 06:43 AM
  11. RumoredNow's Avatar
    The only online store I really use is Amazon. I've never looked at unlocked Walmart or Target phones, since I'm not interested in budget devices.
    It's not all budget... Samsung Unlocked Phones : Cell Phones - Walmart.com


    ...they release products and then abandon them...
    I say the carriers share some of the blame for this. No matter their intention, the effect is to diminish rather than promote. Look at Lumia 810. How many other models are just abandoned by the carriers themselves? And even when the carrier doesn't abruptly stop support, sales are stagnant because the carrier stores fail to get engaged with the product and steer consumers toward it. It's a vicious cycle of release and flop in the US and then you have to try again. It's not the product per se so much as it is the perception of the product.

    Microsoft is making indications they want control of the update path back from carriers. Great. That's how Apple does it and it works, but Windows Phone can't play that game without the leverage Apple has with carriers. The carriers will always block OTAs on their branded devices. It keeps them selling more phones. That's how Android works and Windows Phone can't play that game as the carrier stores fail time and again to push the Windows Phone product.

    Carrier exclusivity kills the brand here in the US. Want a 930? Tough, you don't have and won't get Verizon service. Want a 1520? Oh wait you can't, you're on Sprint. Want an 830? Great, AT&T has it and that's my carrier. Hold on... Where's my Full Denim AT&T!!!

    Android and Apple are everywhere. Windows Phone being only partially available when combined with apathy at the outlets that do have a slim offering makes absolutely zero sense. Far better to go it alone and attract a cognoscenti type of audience.
    07-09-2015 09:54 AM
  12. Spectrum90's Avatar
    If Microsoft doesn't sell the phones in the stores where people wants to buy them, sales will be insignificant.
    07-09-2015 10:15 AM
  13. jmshub's Avatar
    Nokia tried that with its own stores selling unlocked Symbian devices. It never helped Symbian become more than a niche product in the US.
    That is true, but Microsoft may have a little more going for it. They have much more corporate awareness than Nokia did at the time, and they already have stores. Dedicated and pop-up Microsoft stores exist, and they maintain a presence at Best Buy and other electronics retail locations.

    Look at Icon. Look at 1520 and 830 being exclusive to ATT. It hinders the OS from proliferating.
    Not only did at&t lock up 1520 in the US, they inhibited people to a crippled version that required diehard fans to purchase unlocked international versions.
    Last edited by jmshub; 07-09-2015 at 10:59 AM.
    07-09-2015 10:42 AM
  14. Dr_8820's Avatar
    What RumoredNow said about the Lumia 810 is a perfect example of what I'm talking about....that phone was EOL'd by T-Mobile shortly after release with no new updates...how many people who were burned would actually go out and purchase another Microsoft branded phone. What Microsoft is doing now with the previews is something that should have been done years ago, but we all know that the carriers firmware is required. I posted a long time ago that I bet that even the high end phones wouldn't be upgraded to the new software version, and I was correct as far as getting a complete upgrade without missing some of the new features...here's another bet: Watch the new flagship only go to one carrier and the others get the mid range version...
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    07-09-2015 11:08 AM
  15. RumoredNow's Avatar
    If Microsoft doesn't sell the phones in the stores where people wants to buy them, sales will be insignificant.
    LOL. Sales are insignificant in the US already. Going into a carrier store and having to argue with sales reps as to why you want a Windows Phone instead of what they are pushing (latest iGalaxyPhone) is tiresome. Uninformed consumers are being pandered to and anyone who doesn't fit the carrier mold of consumption is treated like a red headed step child. I can't tell you how many times I've left a carrier store with the impression that staff think I'm mentally defective for liking Windows Phone. And if you show them you have knowledge and know what you are about they glaze over, stop paying attention and want to slink away. They hate having the duopoly challenged in any meaningful conversation. They want sheep nodding and in awe of their wisdom, not educated consumers empowering their own purchase choice.

    If you cut out all the lost sales from carrier store hijinks and sell independently, sales will start at close to the same rate. Now if you remove an active obstacle (carrier sales reps and their negative chatter) to consumers choosing the product it has a better chance of standing on its own merits and experiencing an organic growth. Currently that growth is stagnated by politics and bias at the carrier store level.


    ...but we all know that the carriers firmware is required...
    Not so much as the carriers like you to think. Much of it is hype and/or mismanaged BS. Like Isis/Softcard. An "indispensable" bit of carrier ware is T-Mo WiFi calling, right? You know what? You can get WiFi calling on T-Mo on an unbranded iPhone. It's another example of carrier BS. There is absolutely no reason why an unbranded Android or Windows Phone should not be treated the same. Yet they aren't. About the time they announced this I moved off of T-Mo. As much as I enjoyed other aspects of their service, I really didn't appreciate being held hostage to paying for one of their phones to have them address a technical shortcoming in their network. Making an iPhone exception was the straw that broke this camel's back. Why should I pay full price for partial service? No reason that makes any reasonable sense.

    Honestly, what bit of carrier firmware is so necessary? My Factory Unlocked Lumia 1520.3 has proven to function fine on T-Mobile towers and AT&T towers in the US. When I was in Italy for 32 days last fall it worked fine on many Italian carrier's networks as well.

    It's a scam, a shell game. They shuffle bits around to give you the level of service they want to give in order to extort you into buying hardware from them. Just give me the service I pay for and get out of my way. I'll choose my own phone thank you.


    ...Watch the new flagship only go to one carrier and the others get the mid range version...
    But it wouldn't even be that scenario. Give the Flagship exclusively to one carrier and now not all the others want second best. Why should they? How much money do you think a carrier makes from a 520 or a 640? This is another reason why carriers need to be taken out of the equation. Too many games and too willing to limit your choices as a consumer when it comes to Windows Phone.
    07-09-2015 12:06 PM
  16. Spectrum90's Avatar
    LOL. Sales are insignificant in the US already.
    It could be even worse. Lumia sales are 10 million per quarter worldwide, if sales fall to 5 million or 1 million per quarter, developers could consider the platform dead.

    Besides, Microsoft already sells phones through their stores and websites. Dropping carriers and other resellers would only reduce sales.
    jmshub likes this.
    07-09-2015 12:19 PM
  17. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I say dropping carriers only reduces sales slightly and only initially. What it reduces in a major amount is bad word of mouth.
    07-09-2015 12:34 PM
  18. Charles Brown8's Avatar
    From Mr Rubino's article: Bloomberg ? Microsoft 'expects to make its own phones for at least the next two years' | Windows Central



    Good. That is GREAT news and all Windows Mobile fans should rejoice. The carriers have done this platform no favors without taking three of their own in return. Especially in the US. Exclusivity for models and scarcity of availability in stores have pushed this platform away from the consciousness of the consumer. Support for and knowledge of Windows Mobile is severely lacking in carrier stores.

    "Wait," you might say, "Microsoft needs to have their phones in the carrier stores." Not in the way they have been represented. At least not in the US. Having carrier store representatives not understand the OS and shrug indifferently at best and actively hustle customers to competitors with horror stories and inaccuracies at worst does the platform no favors.

    My direct experiences as a Windows Phone enthusiast in carrier stores show me that Windows Phone loses far more customers to staff interference than they could possibly ever hope to gain by having a display which is neglected and ill placed.

    Microsoft should terminate all the carrier shenanigans and sell Unlocked phones directly to those who are aware of what they want; including and especially here in the United States. To those of you on CDMA in the US like Verizon and Sprint, sorry. You have to take the hit on this one. Blame not Microsoft, blame your carrier's mode and activation policies. They do far more to cripple the platform and retard its growth than they could ever do to promote it. I hope that is what the "will continue to sell handsets in the U.S." means - directly. Please do not continue the disastrous relationships with US carriers just to stay in this market. Factory Unlocked for the people.

    Carrier relationships? Kill 'em. Kill 'em with fire and dance around the flames.
    I don't hold much for sprint but if att covered rural areas as well as Verizon I would agree. however shutting out Verizon would also shut me out of windows phone. Gsm for all it's touted Is not worth the next fart if you are not covered. I can buy bricks cheaper from a block yard lol.
    07-09-2015 12:43 PM
  19. stevemind's Avatar
    I'd rather buy online....in the UK the carphone warehouse haven't a clue! They jump on you at the entrance and steer you towards the Iphones & droids. Does my head in, Even though they display WP phones nicely , They must be on commission? MS need to market like demons in the UK...showing how smooth and easy to use the OS is.......Nobody gives a stuff about Cortana anymore.
    RumoredNow, aximtreo and ven07 like this.
    07-09-2015 12:43 PM
  20. Dr_8820's Avatar
    Dropping carriers and other resellers would only reduce sales.
    From what I've been reading from people on this site, most people bought the Lumia 1520.3 over the AT&T branded one. ..and some are AT&T customers who refused to get the neutered version.

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
    RumoredNow and aximtreo like this.
    07-09-2015 12:43 PM
  21. tale 85's Avatar
    I agree that a major hurdle in promoting Windows Phones is in the carrier stores. But the ones I've talked with about it don't push Windows Phones because they have no support from Microsoft. No marketing tools, an occasional visit from a Microsoft rep. Where's their incentive? "Here sell this"
    You have to make your salespeople believe in your product.
    The latest Windows offering from T-Mobile is sold primarily at WALMART. And you have to search out one that even stocks it or knows what you're talking about. Now that's how you "Launch" a new product. How can you expect people to push your product if you just shove it out the back door and hope someone trips over it who knows what it is.
    If you want to sell Windows Phones, SELL THEM!
    07-09-2015 01:09 PM
  22. HeyCori's Avatar
    I like the sentiment of the thread. Microsoft eventually "going it alone" is definitely a romantic idea. Though, I'm not sure if making their best phones harder to acquire is necessarily a good one. We certainly haven't seen any major manufacturers succeed with such a model.

    You can't directly compare Microsoft with BlackBerry. Unlike Microsoft, BlackBerry does not license BB10 to other manufacturers. In retrospect, that was probably a terrible move. BlackBerry almost definitely should of licensed BB10 to other OEMs. But hindsight is as they say.

    Certainly Google has had some success with the Nexus lineup. At least enough success to justify keeping the brand alive. However, the Nexus line is outsourced to different OEMs. And while the Nexus line are usually good devices, they're certainly not as extravagant as a $700 Galaxy S6. Corners would have to be cut to keep prices within the 300-400 range. Likely we'd see more 830 level phones and less 1520s.

    That can certainly be good or bad depending on how OEMs pick up the slack. Perhaps companies like HTC, Samsung or LG will produce more high end WPs if they see that there's more room at the top. It all depends on if those companies can be trusted. The only company I'm willing to give a nod to is HTC. While they haven't been as supportive as Microsoft/Nokia, they're still well above any other OEM.

    And getting back to the carriers. They're terrible. They're so bad that even though people despised AT&T, they're still a godsend for the WP community. Sprint is hands down the worst. Personally I'd rank T-Mobile second and Verizon third. They all suck though. There are more than enough horror stories posted on this forum about sales staff at the big four. And that's in addition to all the other problems that we know about.

    So maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Microsoft took a more Nexus style approach. They'd just have to make sure other OEMs are ready to pick up the slack.
    07-09-2015 01:25 PM
  23. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I don't hold much for sprint but if att covered rural areas as well as Verizon I would agree. however shutting out Verizon would also shut me out of windows phone. Gsm for all it's touted Is not worth the next fart if you are not covered. I can buy bricks cheaper from a block yard lol.
    So long as you are stuck on Verizon, you are beholden to them. I feel bad for those people who don't have an alternative coverage wise. But we all know what a monopoly brings. My sympathy does not let me believe, however, that the same carrier relationship with Microsoft Mobile needs to apply moving forward just so you can have a phone. I'm not against the carriers having the phones, I'm against them dictating the terms to Microsoft of what Microsoft needs to do to accommodate the mighty Vzw (or any carrier). It's simply giving up too much that Microsoft needs. If Verizon wanted to just take the phone as is (the way Apple gets it done) great. If not then too bad. Get out of the way Verizon.



    Many times, from many sources, you hear 10% market share being touted as a measure. A sign of arrival at viability. Italy has that magic number and then some. Android Switchers Drive iOS Adoption in Europe During First Quarter [iOS Blog] | Smartphone Tips n Tricks First quarter 2015 saw WP with a market share in Italy of over 14%. Unlike the US, in Italy the carriers treat Windows Phone as an equal to iOS and Android. In the Us it is treated by the carriers as an afterthought and an embarrassment. Tone means a lot. Here's the front window of a Vodaphone shop in Venice. Windows Phones right out front for everyone to see. How often does that happen in the US? wp_20141003_12_22_37_pro__highres.jpg


    On Wind, if you buy a flagship on contract you get free service. Any flagship. Look at the one they put on the advert... wp_20141010_10_44_39_pro__highres.jpg ...and two out of the six phones shown in this window in Florence are Lumias. It's not just an anomaly.


    Every time I saw the advert it showed Lumia 930. And not just at the carrier stores. Here's a billboard in Rome. wp_20141022_09_06_57_pro__highres.jpg


    Every Wind store promotes Lumia 930 alongside their get a flagship and get free service deal. Here is a shop in the uber trendy Euroma 2 mall in Rome. wp_20141024_15_54_08_pro__highres.jpg


    Out of sight means out of mind. US carriers seem to go out of their way to make Windows Phone forgotten. This cannot continue for the health of the platform.
    07-09-2015 01:39 PM
  24. Charles Brown8's Avatar
    So long as you are stuck on Verizon, you are beholden to them. I feel bad for those people who don't have an alternative coverage wise. But we all know what a monopoly brings. My sympathy does not let me believe, however, that the same carrier relationship with Microsoft Mobile needs to apply moving forward just so you can have a phone. I'm not against the carriers having the phones, I'm against them dictating the terms to Microsoft of what Microsoft needs to do to accommodate the mighty Vzw (or any carrier). It's simply giving up too much that Microsoft needs. If Verizon wanted to just take the phone as is (the way Apple gets it done) great. If not then too bad. Get out of the way Verizon.



    Many times, from many sources, you hear 10% market share being touted as a measure. A sign of arrival at viability. Italy has that magic number and then some. Android Switchers Drive iOS Adoption in Europe During First Quarter [iOS Blog] | Smartphone Tips n Tricks First quarter 2015 saw WP with a market share in Italy of over 14%. Unlike the US, in Italy the carriers treat Windows Phone as an equal to iOS and Android. In the Us it is treated by the carriers as an afterthought and an embarrassment. Tone means a lot. Here's the front window of a Vodaphone shop in Venice. Windows Phones right out front for everyone to see. How often does that happen in the US? Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WP_20141003_12_22_37_Pro__highres.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	1.85 MB 
ID:	108214


    On Wind, if you buy a flagship on contract you get free service. Any flagship. Look at the one they put on the advert... Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WP_20141010_10_44_39_Pro__highres.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	1.97 MB 
ID:	108211 ...and two out of the six phones shown in this window in Florence are Lumias. It's not just an anomaly.


    Every time I saw the advert it showed Lumia 930. And not just at the carrier stores. Here's a billboard in Rome. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WP_20141022_09_06_57_Pro__highres.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	2.28 MB 
ID:	108212


    Every Wind store promotes Lumia 930 alongside their get a flagship and get free service deal. Here is a shop in the uber trendy Euroma 2 mall in Rome. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WP_20141024_15_54_08_Pro__highres.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	862.3 KB 
ID:	108213


    Out of sight means out of mind. US carriers seem to go out of their way to make Windows Phone forgotten. This cannot continue for the health of the platform.
    Lol vzw is only mighty because of it's coverage. As I also somewhat stated if a gsm provider comes off the the bucks to expand their coverage I'm all for it. But it is not just me on Verizon lol. If Microsoft should choose to do what you suggest I'd just use my icon till death and move on. That's all.
    aximtreo and ven07 like this.
    07-09-2015 02:02 PM
  25. mjperry51's Avatar
    Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

    Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

    They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .
    07-09-2015 02:33 PM
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