Kill 'em. Kill 'em With FIRE!!!

[tale 85]

I agree that a major hurdle in promoting Windows Phones is in the carrier stores. But the ones I've talked with about it don't push Windows Phones because they have no support from Microsoft. No marketing tools, an occasional visit from a Microsoft rep. Where's their incentive? "Here sell this"
You have to make your salespeople believe in your product.
The latest Windows offering from T-Mobile is sold primarily at WALMART. And you have to search out one that even stocks it or knows what you're talking about. Now that's how you "Launch" a new product. How can you expect people to push your product if you just shove it out the back door and hope someone trips over it who knows what it is.
If you want to sell Windows Phones, SELL THEM!

 

[HeyCori]

I like the sentiment of the thread. Microsoft eventually "going it alone" is definitely a romantic idea. Though, I'm not sure if making their best phones harder to acquire is necessarily a good one. We certainly haven't seen any major manufacturers succeed with such a model.

You can't directly compare Microsoft with BlackBerry. Unlike Microsoft, BlackBerry does not license BB10 to other manufacturers. In retrospect, that was probably a terrible move. BlackBerry almost definitely should of licensed BB10 to other OEMs. But hindsight is as they say.

Certainly Google has had some success with the Nexus lineup. At least enough success to justify keeping the brand alive. However, the Nexus line is outsourced to different OEMs. And while the Nexus line are usually good devices, they're certainly not as extravagant as a $700 Galaxy S6. Corners would have to be cut to keep prices within the 300-400 range. Likely we'd see more 830 level phones and less 1520s.

That can certainly be good or bad depending on how OEMs pick up the slack. Perhaps companies like HTC, Samsung or LG will produce more high end WPs if they see that there's more room at the top. It all depends on if those companies can be trusted. The only company I'm willing to give a nod to is HTC. While they haven't been as supportive as Microsoft/Nokia, they're still well above any other OEM.

And getting back to the carriers. They're terrible. They're so bad that even though people despised AT&T, they're still a godsend for the WP community. Sprint is hands down the worst. Personally I'd rank T-Mobile second and Verizon third. They all suck though. There are more than enough horror stories posted on this forum about sales staff at the big four. And that's in addition to all the other problems that we know about.

So maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Microsoft took a more Nexus style approach. They'd just have to make sure other OEMs are ready to pick up the slack.

 

[RumoredNow]

I don't hold much for sprint but if att covered rural areas as well as Verizon I would agree. however shutting out Verizon would also shut me out of windows phone. Gsm for all it's touted Is not worth the next fart if you are not covered. I can buy bricks cheaper from a block yard lol.

So long as you are stuck on Verizon, you are beholden to them. I feel bad for those people who don't have an alternative coverage wise. But we all know what a monopoly brings. My sympathy does not let me believe, however, that the same carrier relationship with Microsoft Mobile needs to apply moving forward just so you can have a phone. I'm not against the carriers having the phones, I'm against them dictating the terms to Microsoft of what Microsoft needs to do to accommodate the mighty Vzw (or any carrier). It's simply giving up too much that Microsoft needs. If Verizon wanted to just take the phone as is (the way Apple gets it done) great. If not then too bad. Get out of the way Verizon.



Many times, from many sources, you hear 10% market share being touted as a measure. A sign of arrival at viability. Italy has that magic number and then some. Android Switchers Drive iOS Adoption in Europe During First Quarter [iOS Blog] | Smartphone Tips n Tricks First quarter 2015 saw WP with a market share in Italy of over 14%. Unlike the US, in Italy the carriers treat Windows Phone as an equal to iOS and Android. In the Us it is treated by the carriers as an afterthought and an embarrassment. Tone means a lot. Here's the front window of a Vodaphone shop in Venice. Windows Phones right out front for everyone to see. How often does that happen in the US?


On Wind, if you buy a flagship on contract you get free service. Any flagship. Look at the one they put on the advert... ...and two out of the six phones shown in this window in Florence are Lumias. It's not just an anomaly.


Every time I saw the advert it showed Lumia 930. And not just at the carrier stores. Here's a billboard in Rome.


Every Wind store promotes Lumia 930 alongside their get a flagship and get free service deal. Here is a shop in the uber trendy Euroma 2 mall in Rome.


Out of sight means out of mind. US carriers seem to go out of their way to make Windows Phone forgotten. This cannot continue for the health of the platform.

 

[Charles Brown8]

So long as you are stuck on Verizon, you are beholden to them. I feel bad for those people who don't have an alternative coverage wise. But we all know what a monopoly brings. My sympathy does not let me believe, however, that the same carrier relationship with Microsoft Mobile needs to apply moving forward just so you can have a phone. I'm not against the carriers having the phones, I'm against them dictating the terms to Microsoft of what Microsoft needs to do to accommodate the mighty Vzw (or any carrier). It's simply giving up too much that Microsoft needs. If Verizon wanted to just take the phone as is (the way Apple gets it done) great. If not then too bad. Get out of the way Verizon.



Many times, from many sources, you hear 10% market share being touted as a measure. A sign of arrival at viability. Italy has that magic number and then some. Android Switchers Drive iOS Adoption in Europe During First Quarter [iOS Blog] | Smartphone Tips n Tricks First quarter 2015 saw WP with a market share in Italy of over 14%. Unlike the US, in Italy the carriers treat Windows Phone as an equal to iOS and Android. In the Us it is treated by the carriers as an afterthought and an embarrassment. Tone means a lot. Here's the front window of a Vodaphone shop in Venice. Windows Phones right out front for everyone to see. How often does that happen in the US? View attachment 108214


On Wind, if you buy a flagship on contract you get free service. Any flagship. Look at the one they put on the advert... View attachment 108211 ...and two out of the six phones shown in this window in Florence are Lumias. It's not just an anomaly.


Every time I saw the advert it showed Lumia 930. And not just at the carrier stores. Here's a billboard in Rome. View attachment 108212


Every Wind store promotes Lumia 930 alongside their get a flagship and get free service deal. Here is a shop in the uber trendy Euroma 2 mall in Rome. View attachment 108213


Out of sight means out of mind. US carriers seem to go out of their way to make Windows Phone forgotten. This cannot continue for the health of the platform.

Lol vzw is only mighty because of it's coverage. As I also somewhat stated if a gsm provider comes off the the bucks to expand their coverage I'm all for it. But it is not just me on Verizon lol. If Microsoft should choose to do what you suggest I'd just use my icon till death and move on. That's all.

 

[mjperry51]

Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .

 

[Charles Brown8]

Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .

Right on. I'd jump on one.

 

[Dr_8820]

Not a bad idea at all. My TP2 with Sprint was a world phone, not sure why Microsoft didn't offer more of that.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

[PepperdotNet]

Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .

Agreed. The only thing keeping me from buying an unlocked international 640XL right now is... waiting on the new one that supports Continuum and hoping it too contains "all the LTE bands" like the RM-1096 does.

 

[RumoredNow]

To help echo what the last few posts have said and drive the point home...

I like the sentiment of the thread. Microsoft eventually "going it alone" is definitely a romantic idea...

Yes, it does sound romantic. But pragmatism drives it. What has following the carriers demands in the US gotten for Windows Phone? Precious little exposure and a paltry market share. The rest of the world (or most of it) cringe at the thought of a US style carrier power structure coming to their economy. It's a joke and an embarrassment and it has got to die. Sooner rather than later.

 

[mark233]

This is a most fascinating thread.

 

[a5cent]

I've only got one question:

RumoredNow for president?

 

[fatclue_98]

I'm not defending the carrier mode in any way, shape or form but let's not forget the iPhone was an AT&T exclusive until the Verizon iPhone 4 was released. Great products supported by excellent advertising can survive carrier exclusivity like the aforementioned iPhone, the OG Droid, HTC Evo and others.

 

[realwarder]

The simple fact is they have to involve carriers in the US to sell phones in the US.

Verizon is obvious - CDMA with approved IDs only activated.

AT&T/T-Mobile - while any unlocked GSM phone will work, places like Walmart and BestBuy (along with carrier retail stores) will not sell unapproved phones. And Microsoft needs the phones in Walmart where lots of people buy cheap phones, and carrier stores where people buy flagships.

The US market is locked down. Europe is more open but the US market is important to market acceptance... even if sales figures there are low.

 

[Chinocop]

Fine, sell the value phones with the carriers and the flagship/enterprise phone unlocked at MSFT stores and Amazon. I don't understand why you can't work with retailers to sell unlocked phones. In any event, MSFT is going to sell the value phones at Wal-Mart and Target anyway because the people who shop there are looking for value. I don't see why MSFT needs carrier stores to sell their prized phones esp. when sales reps will trash talk any MSFT phone.

Going at it alone is not going to do any more damage to their relationship with carriers in any case. You don't think the dismal sales of previous Windows Phone iterations haven't already soured carriers perception of Microsoft?

 

[EMINENT 1]

I like the idea of a multi-band phone, but I still feel as long as contracts exist in the US, people will look for the low cost option for a subsidy so they still need that flagship on all carriers. Maybe with the minimal offerings now they won't have a choice to wreck it with their garbage changes and we can get the same model with all the features as MS intended on all carriers.

 

[a5cent]

^ In which case you're back to high-end phones being carrier exclusive! MS must chose the lesser of two evils.

We know that going forward, MS will be releasing exactly two flagship phones annually. Anyone suggesting MS can't afford to ignore carrier channels MUST also state which carriers those two devices will go to, and who's customers will be left out in the cold with no high-end devices to chose from at all! That you and others aren't doing so suggests there is still some wishful thinking or denial of reality involved.

Unfortunately, U.S. carriers will never allow for a free handset market. There are no good options.

 

[rhapdog]

a5cent, there will be two flagship phones in the same way the 640/640xl is two phones, which to some extent is a bit misleading. With those two phones, there are several RM variants for both single and dual SIM, as well as variants to cover different bands. In this way, there can be versions for all carriers.

This is the way of Microsoft going forward.

 

[paulxxwall]

Not enough ms brick and mortar stores. I would have to drive hours to buy a WP? Yeah no! There's 4 att store local to me ....nearest is 5 min away . So a carrier is like way easier for most to pick up maybe a WP but it easier than having to drive 3 hours to an ms store just to buy a phone and no I wont order one online with out physically trying one out

 

[a5cent]

a5cent, there will be two flagship phones in the same way the 640/640xl is two phones, which to some extent is a bit misleading. With those two phones, there are several RM variants for both single and dual SIM, as well as variants to cover different bands. In this way, there can be versions for all carriers.
This is the way of Microsoft going forward.

That's true almost everywhere else in the world except North America, yes. But that isn't relevant here.

It seems you're missing the part about carrier exclusivity and why such devices exist in the first place.

If what you are saying were true, the Icon/930 would not have been exclusive to Verizon, but available on every U.S. carrier, or at least TM and ATT, because variants that technically could have operated on those networks also existed.

This has pretty much nothing to do with technology or the myriads of slight software/hardware variations between what is essentially the same device, but with business, law, and how much bargaining power OEMs and carriers have over each other.

If carriers demand you give them your best phone as an exclusive or go home, you have few options.
I'll admit their is one alternative, namely MS no longer trying to negotiate a relevant subsidy, in which case you'll see on-contract devices going for 299.- with carriers having to make no commitments of their own. That is possibly a reasonable compromise (it's what HTC does), but I'm just not sure U.S. carriers would even say yes to that at this point.

 

[jlzimmerman]

Yeah, get them out of the carrier stores, at least in the U.S. The sales people speak negatively and ignorantly about WP when I have asked about one, or seen anyone ask about one. Removing them from the stores is a good move but a few things must be done as part of that transition:

• Advertise, advertise, advertise; be it for the MS website, retailers like Amazon and Best Buy, or the MS stores. It has to be done to keep it in the conscience of those who wouldn't usually even think about a WP.
• Strengthen the relationship of those retailers that are objective to WP whose salespeople give it a fair shake.

As easy as it is to bypass carrier stores to buy and activate a phone these days, it is a good move by MS if they do the follow up correctly.