08-24-2018 02:22 PM
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  1. darrell reimer's Avatar
    The new Surface Go will fail. It will not make any inroads into the Education market. Here is why:
    (Disclaimer: before I get started, I must admit, that as a LONG time Microsoft enthusiast, I am still deeply hurt and in mourning due to the demise of Windows phones (and Groove Music). I was the only staff member using Windows phones over the past 4 years or so, and was constantly the butt of jokes about the platform, and kept sticking up for it up until the very end. My 950 XL sits at the end of my counter, the source of fond memories, and a reminder of ‘what could have been….)
    I teach in a Middle School. Our Technology hardware (and software) has mostly been an even balance of Microsoft/Windows, Apple/iPads, and Android tablets. Over the past 8 years, to my dismay, our Tech Ed Team has been moving us away from PC/Android and more towards Apple/iPads (which are expensive and overprices). Although all our students and staff use Office 365, the PC and Android hardware is movin’ on out.
    If I approach our IT Admin and pitch the new Surface Go, what convincing argument do I have? In Canada, the new cheapest model Go sells for $529 CDN. Add in the $159 type cover, and we’re up to $689 CDN. This is WAY too expensive. It’s what we pay for our iPads (along with the clumsy Belkin keyboards). So…for the same price, I tell them we’ll get a great machine…but NO APPS? At the Middle School level, our Tech Ed leader is preaching ‘It’s all about the apps’ mantra as we get more and more iPads. For Gr 6 – 8 students, it’s ‘all about the apps’ for their assignments and projects. What apps come with the Surface Go? For the same price, and no apps, there’s no way the Go is going anywhere in our school.
    When students aren’t doing iPad app-specific tasks, they’re doing research and collecting their results in their OneNote folders, creating Word docs, Excel projects, Sway etc…all of this using their Office 365 apps. Android tablets, and more recently - Chromebooks, cheaply fill this need. They are super inexpensive, and getting better all the time. I just picked up an ASUS Chromebook, with rubberized edges and back for durability and strength (kids drop stuff…), for $279 CDN. I installed Word and Excel, and can access all my Office 365 web apps; the kids can access their OneNote folders, and print from this device….for basically 1/3rd the price of the Surface Go.
    So…the Go is the same price as our iPads, but doesn’t have any apps, and it’s almost triple the cost of a Chromebook. Why would our IT Ed team even consider this new device? How would/could I convince them to purchase these? What is their ‘selling point’? (don’t say ‘pen support’…trying to keep track of these while having hundreds of 11/12 year-olds using/LOOSING these pens…ah, no).
    07-14-2018 12:46 AM
  2. covfefe's Avatar
    So you are conditioning kids to use ipod pads when the business world uses Windows PCs? Hope you get sued.
    Wasath likes this.
    07-16-2018 11:32 PM
  3. unmorphed's Avatar
    You're confusing strategies and hardware. Microsoft has an education platform and strategy, but it's a tough sell against Google and Apple because the uneducated, not-tech-savvy majority use those devices and services aleeady.

    If you really want to sell your schools IT department on using Microsoft services but the Surface Go is too expensive, you sell them on the dozens of other cheap Windows based laptops/tablets.

    The Surface Go is similar to the Surface Pro, it's an example for Microsoft's hardware partners.

    The sell for education isn't the device because their are dozens of choices and all price levels, the sell is the services and convincing schools to switch from their heavy investments into Google or Apple.
    Last edited by Guytronic; 07-31-2018 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Casting insults.
    07-28-2018 04:34 PM
  4. maddogmoffit's Avatar
    This is a sad. Darrell has a very good question...

    How would/could I convince them to purchase these? What is their ‘selling point’?.
    ... and as there is no real good answer yet he gets insulted. Hopefully Microsoft will create a complete offer in time but as Darrell I can't see it at this moment.
    blackfire, ajwhite68 and Internaut like this.
    07-28-2018 04:52 PM
  5. PerfectReign's Avatar
    They can't compete. At my sons' school, they use Chromebooks with Google services. Neither of my boys care about Office at home, even though I have a personal O365 account.

    However, my older one now is learning SCCM and how to administer and deploy Windows 2016 VMs

    Sent from mTalk on my HP Elite X3
    07-28-2018 07:26 PM
  6. ddn123's Avatar
    My kids used MacBook airs from 6th grade through high school. A Go would be cheaper and have higher utility than a Macbook air. They can move to Surface Pro in highschool. Plus they will learn the value of touch and inking.
    07-28-2018 07:49 PM
  7. sporosarcina's Avatar
    The Surface 3 was more expensive and made significant inroads into education before MS failed to follow up on it in a timely manner.
    Internaut likes this.
    07-28-2018 08:15 PM
  8. Cruchy Frog's Avatar
    Referring specifically to the Surface GO, I don't believe it had enough broad appeal to school admins and IT to make it. Far too expensive and fragile to compete against a cheap Chromebook.
    07-28-2018 08:41 PM
  9. infosage's Avatar
    I believe it has a chance, and I have one on pre-order. However, you have some good points, but I believe the biggest challenge is that no one at companies or schools will be likely to champion them.

    All of the Microsoft champions at schools and businesses were laughed at, and then shut up permanently when Nadella pulled the plug on phones. Yea, yea, phones are dead and move on, but if you don't believe there are credibility issues from that move, then you are crazy. People love to mention Apple, Google, and Amazon in their pitches for technology. No one is left to champion Microsoft, it's too embarrassing and risky. Nadella might just dump the technology you were saying was something your company or school should adopt. Developers feel the exact same way too. The biggest issue Microsoft has isn't apps, it's trust in the commitment of leadership.
    07-28-2018 09:10 PM
  10. SmmothPatrick's Avatar
    Microsoft never really invested in education, every few years thewy throw a small bit that direction. However, too little too late. Kids coming out of school are all in on Google Docs and a nonMS world. MS lost, it is just a matter of time. Even MS knows this, thus the push on Azure. You do not think about your electric provider, and you will not think of you cloud provider in the future.
    07-28-2018 10:02 PM
  11. enduserbestpractice's Avatar
    i see, business it departments and workers are running away from the word Microsoft. it has earned the reputation of a toy for playing with at home. yea the windows phone and its echo system was one of the best thing they had going. no one thinks buy microsoft OS first when purchasing a device. it gets the stink eye.
    07-28-2018 10:33 PM
  12. jnjroach's Avatar
    My take - no district will ever pay retail pricing so that isn't a viable negative in the discussion. From a deployment and management perspective Windows devices are head and shoulders above iOS and Android. Combine the Surface Go with M365 for Education - (especially E3/E5) and it would provide a much better TCO/ROI over any other solution.

    There will be the "anything but Microsoft" Schools and Districts but Google's privacy policy is a negative for deploying Chromebooks and using G-Suite and the collaboration features are rudimentary.

    The Surface Go combined with Teams for Education, OneNote for Classrooms, Sway and Minecraft makes for a very compelling offering along with EMS, O365, etc. .
    ochhanz likes this.
    07-28-2018 10:44 PM
  13. darrell reimer's Avatar

    All of the Microsoft champions at schools and businesses were laughed at, and then shut up permanently when Nadella pulled the plug on phones. Yea, yea, phones are dead and move on, but if you don't believe there are credibility issues from that move, then you are crazy. People love to mention Apple, Google, and Amazon in their pitches for technology. No one is left to champion Microsoft, it's too embarrassing and risky. Nadella might just dump the technology you were saying was something your company or school should adopt. Developers feel the exact same way too. The biggest issue Microsoft has isn't apps, it's trust in the commitment of leadership.
    Exactly infosage! I was the only Windows phone user on staff; i kept sticking up for it even though ALL the news and media reports about Windows phones was slanted so negative. I kept telling everyone to 'just wait and see'; i kept trying to be optimistic, telling everyone things would eventually turn around. Now i look like a total *****; no one will now really consider my thoughts on technology after this debacle...
    07-28-2018 11:49 PM
  14. llama_thief's Avatar
    Until they include a keyboard in the price of the tablet at the current price point, they have priced themselves out of the market.
    ajwhite68, quietskies78 and chezm like this.
    07-29-2018 12:48 AM
  15. Andrew Rufener's Avatar
    Good points being raised here, but I would like to take a somewhat different approach. “Education” is not a uniform market, so if we are asking the question if MS will succeed with this offering, that is a difficult question to answer. For starters, we need to ask what segment of education. Are we talking K-12, Higher Ed, Private Education...? Secondly, educational markets function very differently on a country by country basis and being successful in education would mean more than simply capturing one (large) market. So understanding the segment and the ecosystem and then providing a compelling proposition that goes beyond pure hardware will be key to success. Google, Apple and Samsung have been mentioned and while neither have all the pieces, Microsoft has for a very long time relied on its dominance of the desktop, office as the desktop tools and a “partner” ecosystem that has been somewhat weak in the educational space to provide a solution - a not very compelling one may I say. However, what educators need is a functional framework within to operate the systems and educational content. None of the vendors has really got a conclusive answer here, however Microsoft’s competition is better positioned. And if anything, that’s why Microsoft will continue to have a tough time in education - they were first in this space and they just don’t get education. They may be able to retain share with a well made and priced device, with Office 365 and a few other pieces, but broad success in this space needs a clear and comprehensive vision and successful execution and while I believe that they have the best starting position, I am not seeing anything yet that would make me believe they are really serious about education. Too bad!
    07-29-2018 05:32 AM
  16. three_thoughts's Avatar
    Surely there will be cheaper pricing for high volume scenarios like schools and business? I doubt that your school would have to pay the consumer price

    https://info.microsoft.com/ww-landin...ontact-us.html
    07-29-2018 05:46 AM
  17. Kasuja's Avatar
    The chance of succes is less if the press keeps questioning Microsoft and write negatively about products.


    Wait, review and see…
    07-29-2018 08:44 AM
  18. Robert Ale's Avatar
    I kept telling everyone to 'just wait and see';
    I think that's your problem and not Microsoft. You bought a phone that you liked, i don't remember MS promising that they will be the leaders in the consuming market or anything. I still own a 950XL and i'm not going and bragging or whinning to anyone.
    You're acting exactly like a child that doesn't have his toy anymore.
    Learn to loose and move on.
    Related to Surface Go we should wait and see.
    07-29-2018 09:30 AM
  19. maddogmoffit's Avatar
    Microsoft needs to build on their strength at it is and that's as I see it Azure and Office 365. Create an offer with an education targeted sandbox Azure environment with components targeted for education. Start with higher education and work down to applications for pre-school. As Microsoft don'¨t have the apps they should leverage Azure for this and with that also get the market from those on iOS, Android and other ecosystems.
    07-29-2018 09:50 AM
  20. Michael Bromley's Avatar
    I taught high school for eight years, starting in '05 when there were only PCs. The big change then was introduction of interactive whiteboards. Every teacher had the Office Suite -- and no teachers were taught to use them. The job of the IT department was simply to keep the wifi running and hand out new keyboards after coffee spills. I couldn't make it to the copy machine at the back of the faculty lounge without two or three teachers asking me for help with the grading system or to show them a trick they saw once in one of my PowerPoints (very interactive and synced to music). Whatever the system, schools just throw them at teachers and students and offer little or no training to actually make them useful.

    I now run an academic coaching service, school4schools.com, and we work with students across the U.S., many of whom are given Macs, iPads, and Chromebooks by their schools. As part of the program we review teacher pages (usually Blackboard, Canvas, Google Docs and Google Classroom, but sometimes via Office 365/SharePoint - some community colleges make good use of SharePoint).

    Some observations:
    - Most teachers use only Word and PowerPoint documents, even in Google Docs environment. We hardly ever see Excel (a shame) and almost never see the Google Presentation.
    - Students almost all use Google Docs and Word. We see very few students using OneNote, at least for their independent work.
    - Students who have iPads report that they are not very useful.
    - Students who have Macbooks are happy with them but 1) most programs they use are MS; and 2) they have constant networking issues. Worse, when they do use Apple programs, they can't convert or integrate them into Windows or Google Docs.
    - When I enter classrooms, even in schools that distribute Mac Books, I see a PC on every classroom teacher desktop. In other words, whether they have a Mac laptop or ipad, teachers are still using or have access to a PC in every room.

    As for the Surface Go, a couple thoughts:
    - A laptop will be a superior to a convertible in terms of actual student use (think kids...) but touch and pen input are desirable.
    - Apps: there is zero need for apps, and those that could be useful for students are all covered by MS. When devices need apps it's because of a deficiency in the form factor or OS, which is inherent to iPads and Chromebooks.
    - Physical and OS reliability is a larger concern than pricing.
    - Win 10 S will prove extremely robust for schools, especially considering the needs for 1) security; 2) OS repair; 3) peripherals integration
    - Whatever the system, there is little training on maximizing its use and needed skill sets to make it work. Worse, the more systems offered, the less effective the training.

    The best argument I can propose to you for Surface Go is that by prioritizing apps and alternative OS students and staff end up with half a loaf instead of a fully utilized system. The school should focus expenditures on the single OS and form factor that can deliver the most utility -- and learning -- and train students and staff to maximize it. Of any single device or OS, the Surface Go delivers the most capabilities.
    07-29-2018 10:57 AM
  21. gal-axy's Avatar
    T In Canada, the new cheapest model Go sells for $529 CDN. Add in the $159 type cover, and we’re up to $689 CDN. This is WAY too expensive. It’s what we pay for our iPads (along with the clumsy Belkin keyboards). So…for the same price, I tell them we’ll get a great machine…but NO APPS?

    When students aren’t doing iPad app-specific tasks, they’re doing research and collecting their results in their OneNote folders, creating Word docs, Excel projects, Sway etc…all of this using their Office 365 apps. Android tablets, and more recently - Chromebooks, cheaply fill this need.

    So…the Go is the same price as our iPads, but doesn’t have any apps, and it’s almost triple the cost of a Chromebook. Why would our IT Ed team even consider this new device?

    Surface Go will get the Office suite the same way ipad do - usually parents have other PC (or Macs) at home and buy Office subscription and can install Office on multiple computers and tablets. So there is no extra cost adding Office to Surface Go and it will have all the flexibility of full OS ipads do not have.

    Or you can use Google docs through a browser - same way as on Chromebook or Android.


    On education market, you can currently buy one of those:

    1. Chromebooks.
    2. ipads or Android tablets.
    3. Windows tablets.
    4. Budget laptops which are usually pretty heavy.
    5. Ultrabooks.

    1. Those people who only choose Chromebooks for their price, won't buy Go. But if they buy them for portability, then Go is a viable alternative. People may also prefer the benefits of running a full OS in a portable form factor.

    2. Go at the same price point will beat ipads and Android tablets hands down for use in class - you cannot use a mouse for document editing on iOS/ Android, so the full Windows OS on Go will be way better for completing assignments. My son used an ipad at school for a couple of years, I finally had to replace it with a proper laptop because using it in class was not very productive.

    3. Not sure if anyone is buying them because many Windows tablets have not so great battery life, but obviously Go is a competitor though at a higher price point.

    4. Go is more portable than budget laptops, but some people will consider Go as an alternative and some will not. Some will buy Go to their kids at the same price point because of portability, some won't want to sacrifice on size or specs, and some purchase these cheap heavy laptops because their kids are breaking everything.

    5. Ultrabooks, especially 2-in-1, are far superior option for education than Go, in my opinion. They cost more but they can do everything in terms of assignments and are still very portable. Someone can still decide in favor of Go though, especially for elementary or middle school.
    Last edited by gal-axy; 07-29-2018 at 02:51 PM.
    ochhanz likes this.
    07-29-2018 01:15 PM
  22. Hirox K's Avatar
    The new Surface Go will fail. It will not make any inroads into the Education market. Here is why:...s of 11/12 year-olds using/LOOSING these pens…ah, no).
    1. failed to see the relationship between WinMobile and a PC.
    * Unlike WoA, WinMobile was not a PC, It was late to the game with 0 user and dev base. It was destined to fail. Didn't care much.

    2. What kinda industry can those kids enter without PC skills?
    A cashier? Some kinda job that use ONLY 1 APP on a machine that's given to you?

    One newbie we've hired... it was a wrong hire. The girl who's now under my team was hired as a game froent-end programmer. She didn't know how to install Unreal, Visual Studio or anything. She knows no Git either. Why? She was a multimedia graduates, they have Windows in the school but all softwares were pre-installed and she doesn't have a PC @ home, iPhone is all she has. After some communication, she seen to want to be a planner... still... planner uses Windows (for synergy and capability reason. here a news for you https://mspoweruser.com/2018-not-yet...to-windows-10/) and they must use native Office for version control or server data updates. She's def un-fit to be a programmer.

    3. Without menu key, shortcut keys, multitask, multi-window, allows user to work without mouse to some extent, how efficient can you work on an iOS or Droid?

    4. How about Adobe, 3dsMax, Unreal, VisualStudio, SVN, Git, File system, Office, Reason, Komplete, Local Server typpa applications and peripheral supports?

    5. What if you need powerful HW to run or experiment on computation costly stuffs?

    6. Uncharted, Zelda, COD, BF, drone, arcade cabinet, ATM, Azure cashier, Azure surveillance camera, Sphero's next robot, water meter, vending machines, Singapore's smart city project, Australia's agriculture, ZPMC, Nike, AR, MR, IOT... where's iOS and Droid? Where's middleware, business / dev solution from Apple or Google?

    I don't think we, human is ready to shift away our businesses' (or creators') needs from Windows. 0 PC skills is def not good for kids (esp colleague students) tbh.
    MY GF, who's managing APAC for an US IT firm. They have office all over the world. She use Windows, Office and work mostly on the web with her VR teams.
    Last edited by Hirox K; 07-30-2018 at 10:08 AM.
    ochhanz likes this.
    07-29-2018 01:25 PM
  23. PerfectReign's Avatar
    Valid points. I hate when i interview CS grads and they know a little Windows, a little Linux, and maybe some C# or Python. I hire the ones who setup - for example - their own Minecraft servers, entered into programming contests, or run small businesses on the side.

    Sent from mTalk on my HP Elite X3
    07-29-2018 03:09 PM
  24. jnjroach's Avatar
    Unfortunately I see most of the people who predict failure are those who are bitter with Microsoft's lack of support of their Windows Phone, Band or Zune.

    The Education Space doesn't need any of that and for Microsoft since their O365 and Azure Platforms are supported across all viable Operating Systems they are in a position of strength. Surface Go when combined with M365 (OPEX vs. CAPEX) I can get an all encompassing solution for a monthly fee (Including the Hardware).

    Too many here are fixated and bitter on the past consumer plays that didn't work out. That was a Microsoft Culture that was reactive.
    ochhanz likes this.
    07-29-2018 03:17 PM
  25. infosage's Avatar
    You're acting exactly like a child
    Wow. Maybe when you don't understand a point someone is making it's you, not them.
    blackfire and ajwhite68 like this.
    07-29-2018 04:04 PM
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