01-25-2015 05:59 PM
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  1. inteller's Avatar
    From the Windows 10 (<-how stupid) Q&A session.

    Q: What happens to ARM-based Surfaces?

    A: On second Q, we're building the software to update vast majority of devices out there.

    A: Our general intent is to make this available as an update for the vast majority of devices.

    Folks they are going to dump us. The #1 single Windows 8 device out there....we're gonna get ****ed.
    09-30-2014 01:00 PM
  2. Jas00555's Avatar
    I mean, obviously they're going to screw you over. They specifically said that they'll no longer support RT bec..... Oh they didn't? Well nevermind then, I'm jumping to conclusions.
    09-30-2014 01:07 PM
  3. Bobvfr's Avatar
    How can you say that, it would be madness for MS to dump RT Surface users from 10, I think you really are jumping to the wrong conclusion there.




    Bob
    xandros9 likes this.
    09-30-2014 01:14 PM
  4. inteller's Avatar
    Don't get played into that ****. If you can answer a point definite question about existing apps will work but then you can't answer whether ARM tablets, which are a very small and defined set of computing devices, will get updated...you know the fix is in.

    The final nail in the coffin will be the lack of a Surface 3 announcement this fall for the holiday season.

    Microsoft intentionally is pushing W10 release as far into the future as they can so they can come out with the bull**** excuse of "well those devices are 2-3 years old and can't support the operating system minimum requirements"

    ...all while touting the efficiency improvements and how Windows 10 will run faster on the same hardware.

    But BUT "How can you say that, it would be madness for MS to dump RT Surface users from 10"
    ...you say.

    Windows Phone 7 users said the same thing.



    The fix is in. You can come back to this thread next year when I'm proven right.
    jdhooghe likes this.
    09-30-2014 01:22 PM
  5. xandros9's Avatar
    And you'll just conveniently ignore this thread when you're proven wrong.

    I'm on the fence, there's no precedent here. I'm not going to say its impossible, but I'm not going to start trumpeting some uncertainty as the hard truth based upon an answer we can't read into. You could be right, you could be wrong, but you could do it more civilly. I appreciate some cynicism, but you might want to dial it back a tiny bit.

    What's with all the sensational thread titles lately? I saw the DONT BUY 1520 CHEAP SCREEN, etc etch and its starting to get on my nerves.
    But that's just my take, not saying other people care, its just the nature that rubs me the wrong way.
    09-30-2014 01:53 PM
  6. Ebaneeezor's Avatar
    th.jpg I need to make this my sig
    09-30-2014 01:57 PM
  7. inteller's Avatar
    And you'll just conveniently ignore this thread when you're proven wrong.

    I'm on the fence, there's no precedent here. I'm not going to say its impossible, but I'm not going to start trumpeting some uncertainty as the hard truth based upon an answer we can't read into. You could be right, you could be wrong, but you could do it more civilly. I appreciate some cynicism, but you might want to dial it back a tiny bit.

    What's with all the sensational thread titles lately? I saw the DONT BUY 1520 CHEAP SCREEN, etc etch and its starting to get on my nerves.
    But that's just my take, not saying other people care, its just the nature that rubs me the wrong way.

    No I won't. I will come back here and GLADLY state that I was wrong. But I know I won't because that would be a positive outcome.

    You say there is no precedent. Oh I could mention Windows Phone 7, but then you'll regurgitate the same tired straw man excuses like hardware and kernel differences. But the precedent of perfectly fine hardware being abandoned IS there.

    I come here bringing you reality folks, the Screw You Train has left the station, next stop 2015.
    09-30-2014 02:03 PM
  8. Bobvfr's Avatar
    Do you know what a Wally is?


    Bob
    09-30-2014 02:22 PM
  9. xandros9's Avatar
    No I won't. I will come back here and GLADLY state that I was wrong. But I know I won't because that would be a positive outcome.

    You say there is no precedent. Oh I could mention Windows Phone 7, but then you'll regurgitate the same tired straw man excuses like hardware and kernel differences. But the precedent of perfectly fine hardware being abandoned IS there.

    I come here bringing you reality folks, the Screw You Train has left the station, next stop 2015.
    Alright, and if I happen to be wrong in assuming it will indeed be pushed to the Surface RT, than I will acknowledge it. I might need reminding however.

    Nah, when I saw no precedent, I mean that Windows RT is an odd beast. It's not exactly the almost unlimited upgrade (I know, its a generalization) conventional PC, but its not a phone OS with their update model either.

    With the Windows Phone 7 break, yup, that's a valid point, will it repeat? Time will tell. Nah, my take is that older models lacked the hardware security MS wanted, (you know, with all those custom ROMs and stuff) but I could be wrong. ("straw man," pfft)
    But still, its a somewhat different situation at its core.

    But what is Windows RT more like?
    Desktop Windows where perfectly fine hardware is go regardless of age? (It is a near-direct port for ARM) My laptop model is approximately six years old, released with Vista, and still goes strong with Windows 8.1, and probably Windows 10.
    but wait, you're right too, perfectly fine mobile hardware is indeed left behind across the industry, but whether it will apply here is the question.

    Will Surface be hampered by its ARM roots, or be propelled forward by its almost-full Windows base?

    No, you come here bringing pessimism, trumpeting it as truth. I'll believe it when there's either an official statement or more substantial evidence not necessarily stated by someone on the spot.
    Sorry, but it may or may not be derailed.
    troylytle and a5cent like this.
    09-30-2014 04:42 PM
  10. vaultsurvivor's Avatar
    Honestly, I'm really not bothered if my surface gets W10... 8.1 works perfectly on it (lack of certain apps but whatever...) and it will be a 2 y/o update by the time W10 is released. It would be lovely if its supported and to have the new os work like a charm, but id rather have my full 8.1 than a buggy/slow/restricted update...
    09-30-2014 04:54 PM
  11. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I think that inteller is correct in his initial assessment of the answers to those questions. "Corporate-speak" is very precise and relies on the hearer filling in blanks that the speaker didn't fill themselves. It gives them plausible deniability among the faithful
    who can point to the lack of a smoking-gun statement.

    Microsoft has made a commitment to support the Surface RT (1st gen) for 4 years ending some time in 2017. No such commitment was made for the Surface 2. That commitment usually consists of warranty claims and bug fixes.

    Given my experience with Microsoft, their killing of the Surface Mini was NOT because it wasn't different enough from the competition (they already knew what the competition had while they were developing the mini) but because an executive decision had been made to sunset Windows RT-based devices.

    I highly doubt that there will be a Surface 3. I think that there will be an ARM version of Windows 10 only if it makes it easier to bring touch-enabled Office and additional apps over to the platform.

    This is the Zune all over again. Unfortunately. I'm still a fan of the Zune. I'm still a fan of the Windows RT-based Surfaces.
    xandros9 and Jazmac like this.
    09-30-2014 07:00 PM
  12. John Steffes's Avatar
    I hope you are wrong, I love my Surface RT 64G, would love Windows RT 10, but if it is not meant to be, then I will still enjoy what I have now and the updates to come until the machine dies... If this device is like my last Windows device (it was from 1998), that means I hope it lasts 16 years... I hope the Surface RT 64G does as well...

    Won't be the first time I got sucked into a good device... HP webOS Touchpad... Looks like Leo maybe working for Microsoft?

    FYI Surface RT start 1/24/2013 end 4/11/2017 Review Note For additional details on the Surface with Windows RT Lifecycle Policy, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page available from this web link: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/life...-hardware-faqs and Windows RT 8.1 start 11/13/2013 Review Note Review Note The product falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8 with support ending 1/10/2023. However, customers have 24 months to move to Windows 8.1 after General Availability in order to remain supported. See the Windows 8.1 FAQ for more information. http://support2.microsoft.com/gp/lif...windows-rt-faq
    Last edited by John Steffes; 09-30-2014 at 08:51 PM.
    09-30-2014 08:05 PM
  13. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    Speaking as someone who went through the Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 mess. While I would like to give Microsoft credit, I have to say I still have a bitter taste left.

    The old saying is....Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me.

    I can see the original Surface RT being left out in the cold, and Microsoft saying hardware is the issue . I mean even Apple left it's original iPad out in the cold after a time.

    Now I can also see another XDA + Dark Forces hack to allow the original RT to upgrade, thus again putting egg on the faces of Microsoft.

    Time will tell.....the key to a clue will be if they release a preview on the insider program for Surface 2 only.....or have no preview at all.
    09-30-2014 08:27 PM
  14. xandros9's Avatar
    I think that inteller is correct in his initial assessment of the answers to those questions. "Corporate-speak" is very precise and relies on the hearer filling in blanks that the speaker didn't fill themselves. It gives them plausible deniability among the faithful
    who can point to the lack of a smoking-gun statement.

    Microsoft has made a commitment to support the Surface RT (1st gen) for 4 years ending some time in 2017. No such commitment was made for the Surface 2. That commitment usually consists of warranty claims and bug fixes.

    Given my experience with Microsoft, their killing of the Surface Mini was NOT because it wasn't different enough from the competition (they already knew what the competition had while they were developing the mini) but because an executive decision had been made to sunset Windows RT-based devices.

    I highly doubt that there will be a Surface 3. I think that there will be an ARM version of Windows 10 only if it makes it easier to bring touch-enabled Office and additional apps over to the platform.

    This is the Zune all over again. Unfortunately. I'm still a fan of the Zune. I'm still a fan of the Windows RT-based Surfaces.
    I like your points.
    09-30-2014 08:31 PM
  15. John Steffes's Avatar
    I think that inteller is correct in his initial assessment of the answers to those questions. "Corporate-speak" is very precise and relies on the hearer filling in blanks that the speaker didn't fill themselves. It gives them plausible deniability among the faithful
    who can point to the lack of a smoking-gun statement.

    Microsoft has made a commitment to support the Surface RT (1st gen) for 4 years ending some time in 2017. No such commitment was made for the Surface 2. That commitment usually consists of warranty claims and bug fixes.

    Given my experience with Microsoft, their killing of the Surface Mini was NOT because it wasn't different enough from the competition (they already knew what the competition had while they were developing the mini) but because an executive decision had been made to sunset Windows RT-based devices.

    I highly doubt that there will be a Surface 3. I think that there will be an ARM version of Windows 10 only if it makes it easier to bring touch-enabled Office and additional apps over to the platform.

    This is the Zune all over again. Unfortunately. I'm still a fan of the Zune. I'm still a fan of the Windows RT-based Surfaces.
    FYI according to Microsoft Support pages about Surface 2:

    Surface 2 start 1/20/2014 end 4/10/2018 Review Note For additional details on the Surface 2 Lifecycle Policy, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page available from this web link: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/life...-hardware-faqs and Windows RT 8.1 start 11/13/2013 Review Note Review Note The product falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8 with support ending 1/10/2023. However, customers have 24 months to move to Windows 8.1 after General Availability in order to remain supported. See the Windows 8.1 FAQ for more information. Windows RT Product Support Lifecycle Policy FAQ
    WillysJeepMan likes this.
    09-30-2014 08:55 PM
  16. inteller's Avatar
    The support statements on the Surface line have nothing to do with updates. It is more around Windows 8 support than anything.

    Microsoft is going to use the "hardware isn't capable" line but let me tell you the Tegra3 and 4 chipsets are MORE than capable of running a revised version of 10 that's going to strip out Desktop and a lot of system overhead. Let's put it this way, can a Tegra3 run fine on a phone? The HTC One X seems to run just fine.

    The Surface could have done Miracast, but Microsoft didn't want to update the drivers to do so. They didn't want to implement the 5th power saving core that would have made these battery sipping beasts. No, all Microsoft wanted to do was to once again make the public beta testers and shaft them in the end with a properly scaled version of Windows for these tablets.
    10-01-2014 07:49 AM
  17. xandros9's Avatar
    The support statements on the Surface line have nothing to do with updates. It is more around Windows 8 support than anything.

    Microsoft is going to use the "hardware isn't capable" line but let me tell you the Tegra3 and 4 chipsets are MORE than capable of running a revised version of 10 that's going to strip out Desktop and a lot of system overhead. Let's put it this way, can a Tegra3 run fine on a phone? The HTC One X seems to run just fine.

    The Surface could have done Miracast, but Microsoft didn't want to update the drivers to do so. They didn't want to implement the 5th power saving core that would have made these battery sipping beasts. No, all Microsoft wanted to do was to once again make the public beta testers and shaft them in the end with a properly scaled version of Windows for these tablets.
    If you know something I don't, OK, but don't be so certain. I understand the cynicality, "oho the evil corporation gun screw us by X, Y, Z" but can't you dial it back a little bit.

    Heck, I'd say the Tegra's would probably run 10 just fine if they don't raise the requirements. Sure the original Surface isn't the last word in high-performance computing, but I don't think much more optimization effort outside of porting it to ARM would be required.

    The HTC One X may run fine, but you're comparing Apples to maybe slightly Apple-ly Oranges, Android is a phone OS first, Windows is something else. (yes, there's plenty of older capable hardware out there)

    Everything is about tradeoffs, so they decided not to bother. but OK, did they promise it? This reminds me of the person raging about how 1020 owners were being cheated because they wouldn't get all the advanced camera stuff shown in Denim that wasn't promised or implied that they would receive anyway. They could've done feature X or thing Y, but its relatively small. Maybe there's something we don't know actually, but hey, who knows.

    You think the Surface is a beta test? Was the iPad 1 a beta test for iOS 5? Was the HTC One X a beta test?

    Either way we'll probably be watching them relatively closely and see what happens.
    jmshub likes this.
    10-01-2014 08:40 AM
  18. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    FYI according to Microsoft Support pages about Surface 2:

    Surface 2 start 1/20/2014 end 4/10/2018 Review Note For additional details on the Surface 2 Lifecycle Policy, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page available from this web link: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/life...-hardware-faqs and Windows RT 8.1 start 11/13/2013 Review Note Review Note The product falls under the same lifecycle policy as Windows 8 with support ending 1/10/2023. However, customers have 24 months to move to Windows 8.1 after General Availability in order to remain supported. See the Windows 8.1 FAQ for more information. Windows RT Product Support Lifecycle Policy FAQ
    Thanks for that. I guess that the public perception and reception of the Surface RT forced MS to make a more public statement regarding support for the RT.

    10-01-2014 08:43 AM
  19. Cryio's Avatar

    Microsoft intentionally is pushing W10 release as far into the future as they can so they can come out with the bull**** excuse of "well those devices are 2-3 years old and can't support the operating system minimum requirements"

    ...all while touting the efficiency improvements and how Windows 10 will run faster on the same hardware.

    The fix is in. You can come back to this thread next year when I'm proven right.
    You ok mate? It seems you kinda forgot that Windows has had and still has the same minimum system requirements since Vista.
    10-01-2014 08:50 AM
  20. xandros9's Avatar
    You ok mate? It seems you kinda forgot that Windows has had and still has the same minimum system requirements since Vista.
    but it could be that a variety of factors contributes to Microsoft not wanting to do new stuff with ARM-based RT which I imagine could be a disproportionate money sink. (not a waste entirely though
    10-01-2014 11:24 AM
  21. inteller's Avatar
    let's get some things clarified here.

    RT as it is today is dead. That is certain. The Windows 10 ARM....*thing* would be perfectly capable of running on a Surface and Surface 2. I would even speculate even MORE capable than Windows 8 today. That's because Microsoft is stripping out a bunch of useless things like Desktop.

    But that's the excuse Microsoft will use themselves, they will say that because Windows 10 on ARM is more like phone than tablet, that users will feel like functionality has diminished, not increased. (inevitably some ******* will ***** because they can't access Paint on the Desktop anymore)

    Surface won't get upgraded.
    10-01-2014 04:29 PM
  22. sinime's Avatar
    It will probably run a Surface (current RT).... If it runs on some form or fashion on a phone, why wouldn't it, or some version of it run on the Surface?
    10-01-2014 04:38 PM
  23. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    let's get some things clarified here.

    RT as it is today is dead. That is certain. The Windows 10 ARM....*thing* would be perfectly capable of running on a Surface and Surface 2. I would even speculate even MORE capable than Windows 8 today. That's because Microsoft is stripping out a bunch of useless things like Desktop.

    But that's the excuse Microsoft will use themselves, they will say that because Windows 10 on ARM is more like phone than tablet, that users will feel like functionality has diminished, not increased. (inevitably some ******* will ***** because they can't access Paint on the Desktop anymore)

    Surface won't get upgraded.
    inteller may have a point !!!!!

    As MJF from Windows Weekly asked about the broad range of Arm based devices, (meaning Tablets and Phones), and the answer she was given was only about phones.

    Her words from the last Windows Weekly could see an end of the line for Surface and the Asus, Nokia RT devices.

    I don't want to be an alarmist, but as I said before even though the Windows Phone 7 devices could have been upgraded ( Please don't say they could not because the Truth is Yes they could have...with minor security features left out. Also The Dark Forces team with a hack proved they could have), Microsoft did not want to put forth the money to develop the Upgrade. So I still have a small sting left from that.

    I can see RT being left as is, with only small patches and fixes until their end of support days. Remember a life cycle does not have to give new system upgrades, only security fixes and patches.

    I hope I am wrong but my gut tells me to be ready!!!!!
    10-02-2014 09:07 AM
  24. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I am loathe to agree with inteller on just about anything, but I've been feeling the same way. It's too late to b!tch about it now, but dropping WP7 was decidedly a mistake. It was much better as an ARM-based OS than WP8. There was already dev activity on XDA, namely Cotulla, and sideloads were starting. This is how Android gained traction when it was in its infancy. That's when they dropped the hammer and you know the rest. Count me as one of those who feels that 7/7.5 is quicker, more responsive and much better at kinetic scrolling than 8/8.1 on any device.

    As much as I like RT, I think it's going to be the odd man out. That's just a gut feeling and I have nothing to back it up with.
    10-02-2014 09:55 AM
  25. Jas00555's Avatar
    http://m.windowscentral.com/windows-...due-until-2015

    "will be out for ARM devices and phones" so unless Microsoft has another OS that runs on ARM, that pretty much confirms that RT will get the update (although we have no idea what it will be updated to, whether the merged WP/RT OS or RT 10), so now lets admit the OP jumped the gun and put this to bed.
    xandros9 likes this.
    10-02-2014 10:57 AM
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