Already sick of this

[Cleavitt76]

The reality is the tech media uses Apple products at about 99% level. Who's fault is that - MS dropped the ball in the 2000s with their arrogance and Apple came roaring back with quality/innovative products like the Macbook Air. You're just complaining that Apple won.

I'm not going to waste much time proving you wrong because I consider you a troll on this forum. Your post is a perfect example of why I feel that way. Argumentative with no real substance or logic. I am not complaining that "Apple won" and I don't care that 9 out of 10 tech bloggers use Apple products. I am just pointing out why I believe this particular "reviewer" is not capable of making a legitimate product review on a unique device like the Surface Pro and also pointing out that there are a lot of people that are too unimaginative and conservative to grasp any product that is innovative.

Really?! What are the several different keyboard options" that Microsoft offers for the Surface Pro 3 line? They offer the TypeCover3. That's it. In different colors. Nothing prevents them from offering a Surface Pro 3 bundle with the black TypeCover3 at a bargain price. And offer the Surface Pro 3 separate for those who want to pick a particular color keyboard. That's not rocket science.

Sorry, but as much as you'd like to think differently, for the typical non-Microsoft ****** consumer, a tablet without a keyboard is a tablet... not a notebook replacement. Somehow, because they are sold separately, fanboys will cite the base price of the Surface Pro 3 without the added $130 for a Type Cover 3. Which is EXACTLY what Microsoft was hoping by not providing a SP3+keyboard bundle. Reasonable people won't fall into that trap.

I completely agree that the Surface accessories (covers, chargers, etc) should be cheaper. However, that was not your argument. Your argument was...

"Regardless of what Microsoft says, the Surface Pro 3 is a tablet. They don't include a keyboard."

It's just not that simple. A desktop can be purchased without a monitor. Would it be fair to say that a desktop sold without a bundled monitor is the same as a box and compare it to a cardboard box? I can see it now, "The metal construction is nice, but at $699 the Dell box is overpriced compared to this free cardboard box I found in a dumpster and the free model holds more stuff."

Nothing that you have said in this thread has anything to do with the topic that was being discussed (the one sided SP3 review). The reviewer WAS given a type cover and she basically chose to ignore it along with a lot of other features. If she had been given a SP3 without the cover you might have a point, but even then she barely mentions any of the other vast functionality that an SP has over an iPad.

@stephen_az:

The answers to your questions are...

1) Does Microsoft ship the device with a bundled keyboard at no additional price?

No, but that one point doesn't define the entire product. I used my SP2 for about 4 months without owning a keyboard cover (sold original cover to a friend). However, I used the device as both a tablet and a dual monitor desktop (more often as a desktop). Does an iPad do that? Don't you think that capability should be explained by a competent technology reviewer? That was the topic of this thread.

2) Do Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, HP, etc., etc., etc., ship desktop computers with no keyboard because there are lots of models available?

Yes, they do. So I guess by your logic that means the Surface Pro is a desktop? Which is it, a tablet or a desktop? Both are sold without bundled keyboards. I personally think it can be both (it has been for me), but then again I'm not one those people that can only do directly one-to-one comparisons of devices to existing Apple products.

3) What products are traditionally sold without keyboards?

Toasters! Should we compare the Surface Pro to a toaster? Smart phones. Would it make sense to compare the SP to a smart phone? Just to be clear, I don't have any issue with comparing the SP to an iPad provided that both the disadvantages AND ADVANTAGES are both mentioned.

4) Can you rip the keyboard off a MacBook Air or any other laptop and use it?

No, because the SP isn't JUST a laptop or a tablet. That is kind of my point. Can you plug an iPad into a docking station with a full keyboard, mouse, multiple monitors, and use it as a desktop workstation? If the SP is a tablet comparable to the iPad as you claim and it can do that, then how can an iPad be a tablet if it can't do the those same things? Don't you think those differences should be mentioned in a review?

5) Are there useable (albeit not perfect) tablet applications for an iPad to provide many of the functions of legacy apps for OSX?

Yes, does that make it a laptop/desktop? I think you have lost focus. Let me get you back on track. You were defending a "technology reviewers" direct comparison of an iPad to a SP3 while only mentioning the tablet level features because the SP3 isn't bundled with a keyboard and therefore can only be a tablet.

 

[Cleavitt76]

Its a PC in tablet form.

jack of all trades, master of none.

You want a laptop, you sacrifice the portability the tablet form factor gives you, then you get the clamshell laptop chassis, more power and more everything from the PC side of things.

You want a tablet, you sacrifice x86 capability (unless you get a Atom based win8 tablet) and power for battery life and portability.

you cant have your cake and eat it too, unless you're made of money.

The jack of all trades, master of none thing is mostly accurate, but there is one exception in my opinion. If you are looking for a single device that can go from desktop to laptop to tablet while sharing the same OS copy, software installs, and files, then the Surface Pro is the master of that type of device. This would have been a Sci-Fi dream a few years ago.

People almost always use the "jack of all trades, master of none" phrase in a negative way. However, there are many cases where a combination/hybrid system is the right tool for the job. Smart phones are a good example. 4 door trucks and SUVs are another. Having overly specialized tools is not always a good thing.

 

[Cleavitt76]

I think the main issue is Mac users are reviewing the SP3. If it was a PC user reviewing it. It might be different. Apple doesn't give their consumers with different type covers, pen, mouse, stylus etc.

Apple says this is what you get and that's it. So when Mac users get presented with options for the SP3 they get all discombobulated.

That is a very good point. I was kind of hitting on that in my first post, but you explained it better. It used to be that mostly only creative types used Apple products. Graphics artists, etc. That is still the case, but in recent years (with the advent of the iPhone/iPad) a lot of very conservative, "I don't like change", unimaginative people have locked on to Apple products. None of them do much with computers other than email, web browser, etc. Some of the most unimaginative people I know are the ones that pay full price for every new iPhone/iPad that comes out the day of release.

I'm not trying to hate on these people. Some of them are my friends or family members. They are good at other things, like accounting, but they aren't the kind of people that innovate. They are the type of people that follow the rules and the status quo. They are the last people to catch on to better products and better ways of doing things. If you put a Surface Pro in front of someone like that, they simply won't even be able to comprehend the concept.

 

[BobLobIaw]

The jack of all trades, master of none thing is mostly accurate, but there is one exception in my opinion. If you are looking for a single device that can go from desktop to laptop to tablet while sharing the same OS copy, software installs, and files, then the Surface Pro is the master of that type of device. This would have been a Sci-Fi dream a few years ago.

People almost always use the "jack of all trades, master of none" phrase in a negative way. However, there are many cases where a combination/hybrid system is the right tool for the job. Smart phones are a good example. 4 door trucks and SUVs are another. Having overly specialized tools is not always a good thing.

I couldn't agree more. Some people consider the jack of all trades to be masterful in its own right. See, e.g., Army Knife, Swiss. I consider my Surface Pro to be a jack of all trades and the best electronic device I have ever owned. A lot of extraneous factors will dictate its level of commercial success, but objectively it is a well-constructed, cutting-edge device. My first thought when I saw the release yesterday was "if this was an Apple product, the buzz would be enormous." It's too bad that Microsoft has to climb the mountain of acceptability when it comes to the Surface Pro, but they are paying the price for poor reputation and past failures and that's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I'm sure happy to have one, though.

 

[chezm]

That is a very good point. I was kind of hitting on that in my first post, but you explained it better. It used to be that mostly only creative types used Apple products. Graphics artists, etc. That is still the case, but in recent years (with the advent of the iPhone/iPad) a lot of very conservative, "I don't like change", unimaginative people have locked on to Apple products. None of them do much with computers other than email, web browser, etc. Some of the most unimaginative people I know are the ones that pay full price for every new iPhone/iPad that comes out the day of release.

I'm not trying to hate on these people. Some of them are my friends or family members. They are good at other things, like accounting, but they aren't the kind of people that innovate. They are the type of people that follow the rules and the status quo. They are the last people to catch on to better products and better ways of doing things. If you put a Surface Pro in front of someone like that, they simply won't even be able to comprehend the concept.

Of all the arguments/Debates going on as to whether the Surface Pro is deemed Laptop or Tablet, and the confusion of the general public, this statement is the nail on the head. I am fortunate enough for work to have a MacBook Pro i7 8GB 15" laptop, as well as a SP2 for personal use...so I've had my fair share of experience with both OS's and devices. Im a network engineer, does the MacBook help me perform better at my job? Definitely NOT. Why do i have it? Realistically, its more about politics and presentation piece than anything else...seriously how sad it that? And whats worse is in order to function at my job i MUST have VM Windows 7 running LOL.

Apple products are a statement more than anything, thats my opinion. I am not talking down their devices, the MacBook is of excellent build and OSx runs amazingly...but I just dont like the OS personally and would never buy a OSx based device. I love my SP2 and when i show non-tech people the advantages and what it can do, 99% of the people are thoroughly impressed as they HAD NO IDEA. "I've seen the commercials, just assumed its a tablet with Office"...this is the general response i get, understandably i agree see the commercials here in Canada or store demos do not offer enough information for the 'common people of today' (people with short attentions that need everything fed to them in seconds). And because of this, just like what was stated above, when you put a device like the Pro in front of some general consumer they can't comprehend it. I just find the general consumer to lack any sense of personal/individual comparisons, they're so used to being told what is GOOD and BAD, or AVERAGE, to develop personal opinions these days. The power of Apple's marketing is exceptional, their AD's even get my heart racing...MS, not so much. The impression is if you OWN a device that will make you PRESENT yourself as CREATIVE you ARE 'CREATIVE'. Very smart marketing ploys. Hell, Im a musician that mixes/records/masters on a PC and from non-tech people always get asked "Why dont you use a MAC, isn't it the best for music related stuff?", which the statement is completely FALSE and i have to correct them at a high level.

It's all perception and how its marketed. As much as I love my SP2, I do agree it should have been bundled with a very cheap-ish semi-touch keyboard to lighten the confusion to the general public..and then people could spend the extra few bucks on a Touch or Type at their own will. Although us a techs know the differences between a Pro, iPad, etc...the general public COULD try but would rather just spend their money on products familiar. I still get taunted about my Pro being an expensive tablet and their only defense is "but you had to buy a Keyboard for it! Its not a laptop!"...It's hard to defend that with Apple folk.

 

[bsayegh]

Yeah the keyboard not being included in kind of a deal breaker.

 

[SeeVuPlay]

I don't think inclusion of a bundled keyboard changes anything vs having to buy it separately. If the majority of people are this easily confused than i just havent given myself enough credit...I must be a freaking genius.

I just dont see how hard it is to go to a store, look at a device that looks like a tablet with a detachable keyboard.

but but but...the commercials always show a keyboard....but but but it is marketed as a laptop...

omg, the human race is doomed.

 

[SeeVuPlay]

what if MS announced that the i5 256 version was $1429 and included a keyboard. You would be fine with that?

 

[Editguy1900]

Personally, if it added to the price, I wouldn't want a bundled keyboard. As a video editor, when I wasn't using it in the field where I wouldn't want the keyboard at all, I would have it connect it to an external monitor and a full sized keyboard and mouse. I don't expect that everyone else would use it the way I would, but that's why I'm glad that the keyboard is optional. Apparently too may consumers have been trained to be sold things that they don't want or need.

 

[chezm]

I don't think inclusion of a bundled keyboard changes anything vs having to buy it separately. If the majority of people are this easily confused than i just havent given myself enough credit...I must be a freaking genius. ..

omg, the human race is doomed.

Yes, and Yes

 

[AndersonSilvaR]

This video describes it all: https://www.yahoo.com/tech/if-you-had-to-be-a-tragic-mythological-figure-86496376264.html

 

[Great deal]

This is they way I see it...

2 giants trying to make you part with your money by using pictures and words to conjure feelings associated to bits of metal and plastic. Apple have done a FANTASTIC job of convincing 'consumers' and rightly so IMO as their tech just works. However...in the world of business and by that I mean in an office environment, around 90% ( Usage share of operating systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) of the world uses Windows and software you cant get on Macs OR the compatibility is full retard. The choice is obvious. As for listening to people who compare tech all day long, that is also a retard thing to do as most ignore the real world issues and get caught up in the latest and greatest.

the most important question as in the presentation is "what do you need to do?"

The answer..95% of the time is people need a 486 Pentium 2 to do what they 'need' but that's not what they are really asking or want to hear. What they want is something, cool, something trendy that makes them look cool as well as something that does what they need it to do now and for the next 2 years. I think that 'something' if you want 1 device and use Windows at work is SP2/3 and maybe some Lenovo products. I have Apple gear, Ipad is reserved for the kitchen and my go to device when i need access to web immediately (I have accounts on the SP2 and takes too long to log in) and works brilliantly for what I want, for work its desktop of SP2.

My employees are all going to get the SP3 and im doing away with desktops as long as the SP3 runs 2 (maybe 3) displays. Ive researched Apple but the software vendors don't support it.

 

[jeres88]

Look at this "review". Beyond words bad.

Microsoft Surface Pro 3 Hands-On: Third Time's Almost the Charm

"Microsoft made it a point to call the Macbook Air its primary competitor, but honestly, the Surface Pro 3 seemed more like a fair rival to the iPad. And at $799 for the Core i3 version without the keyboard, it?s a tough price tag to swallow."

The review isn't great, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. It even mentions in the article that it's really more of a first impression type article than a review. One line did stand out as a bit ridiculous to me though,

"we?re just not sure how many people aim to use their laptops primarily on their lap."

With how much crap MS has gotten in review for their previous Surface devices about how bad it is to use in your lap, now reviewers are going to state that no one uses laptops in their laps primarily!? Granted, I agree with the statement, I don't think most people do, but they really need to make up their mind.

 

[StevoPhilo]

I'm sorry, I thought the word "lap" in "laptop" is meant for it to be used on your LAP.

 

[SeeVuPlay]

I'm sorry, I thought the word "lap" in "laptop" is meant for it to be used on your LAP.

Really? Cuz at work, at home, and in all coffee shops, I see these clamshell looking devices sitting on desks and tables. Why do you think that is?

 

[JamesPTao]

Yeah the keyboard not being included in kind of a deal breaker.

I don't think so. If it was bundled the cost would be rolled into the price. The way it is I don't have to pay more to have the touch cover bundled. That way if I prefer the type or power keyboard I can get it and the overall cost will be lower.

 

[JamesPTao]

The argument is pointless most reviewers are morons these days. If its a computer or tablet only apple can be king. If its headphone only beats or bose are top even though there is far better for the same price or cheaper (ue anyone). Just look at camera gear. You're think stigma was great looking at reviews when in reality they have only a handful of decent lenses and the ones they try to compare to are far better. (case in point stigma 50 1.4 vs Zeiss otus 50mm f1.4). Most reviews are too biased or uneducated about the options available and how the buyers will use the items to review the pros and cons. Unfortunately that is the way things are these days.