Ecosystem isn't Windows Phone's Achilles heel, hardware is

[spaulagain]

That's a misconception that I hear frequently, but it's not true. Samsung makes the most profits, but other OEM's make money as well. Sony's handset division has actually been carrying it's other unprofitable products for years. HTC turned a decent profit this year as well. And Huawei has turned into a giant, and is just now being seen as a formidable force. Do you really think Sony, HTC, LG, etc have been making phones all these years without making any money off of them? That doesn't make any sense.

Not to bring this thread back from the dead, but I have to point this out...

https://news.yahoo.com/sony-slashes...ivision-062337649--finance.html?pt=BureoF1GVB

Samsung really is the only OEM winning at Android. The others are barely scraping by or holding on for dear life in hopes they have a miracle breakthrough.

In the long run I think you'll have 3 big smartphone brands, Apple, Samsung, and Microsoft. The rest will be bottom feeders.

 

[skstrials]

Not to bring this thread back from the dead, but I have to point this out...

https://news.yahoo.com/sony-slashes...ivision-062337649--finance.html?pt=BureoF1GVB

Samsung really is the only OEM winning at Android. The others are barely scraping by or holding on for dear life in hopes they have a miracle breakthrough.

In the long run I think you'll have 3 big smartphone brands, Apple, Samsung, and Microsoft. The rest will be bottom feeders.

Umm no,

How about LG, Xiaomi, and Lenovo? They are all doing fine and growing rapidly, especially the companies in the developing market are growing very rapidly. The article you mentioned just applied to Sony.

And even Black berry is looking better these days with the passport and their revenue from the software services improving.

If anything, Samsung is going through a tough time right now, with them losing share in the developing market, and their Galaxy S5 failing to meet their expectations.

 

[spaulagain]

Umm no,

How about LG, Xiaomi, and Lenovo? They are all doing fine and growing rapidly, especially the companies in the developing market are growing very rapidly. The article you mentioned just applied to Sony.

And even Black berry is looking better these days with the passport and their revenue from the software services improving.

If anything, Samsung is going through a tough time right now, with them losing share in the developing market, and their Galaxy S5 failing to meet their expectations.

Ok, let me clarify, of the OEMs that make up the majority (87%) of Androids market share, Samsung is the only one that's truly had real success. They are struggling a little now because their last 3 Galaxy models have all been recycled designs and they aren't doing well in budget phones now. Here is the market make up...



Samsung 65% - Doing pretty well
LG 7% - Doing well
HTC 6% - How much longer will they last?
Sony 5% - See article above
Motorola 4% - BAD, do we even need to discuss?
Other 13% - this last bit is the bottom feeders like Lenovo and Xiaomi

And BlackBerry? They are essentially dead as a smartphone OEM. And they aren't even an Android manufacture which is who we were talking about.

 

[tgp]

In the long run I think you'll have 3 big smartphone brands, Apple, Samsung, and Microsoft. The rest will be bottom feeders.

But how do you justify putting Microsoft in the same group as Apple and Samsung when their smartphone division would line up more with what you call bottom feeders? I'm not necessarily challenging you; I'm more just curious.

 

[spaulagain]

But how do you justify putting Microsoft in the same group as Apple and Samsung when their smartphone division would line up more with what you call bottom feeders?

Because Microsoft is the OEM for the 3rd OS in the market. In less than a year WP will just be Windows. Windows and it's ecosystem are just as strong (or stronger) than Apple's and Androids. Notice I picked Apple (iOS), Samsung (Android), and Microsoft (Windows). And I think in the long run (as noted above) Microsoft will do well with Lumia's and WP/Windows.

Don't forget that Apple has less than 20% global market share and it's continuing to decline as well.

 

[spaulagain]

Interesting graph...

View attachment 81575

 

[tgp]

Because Microsoft is the OEM for the 3rd OS in the market. And I think in the long run (as noted above) Microsoft will do well with Lumia's and WP. Don't forget that Apple has less than 20% global market share and it's continuing to decline as well.

Yeah that makes sense. I'm not quite as optimistic as you are though. It's true that Apple's market share is declining, but at least actual numbers are still going up. WP is losing both market share and absolute numbers, according to Q2 2013 to Q2 2014. This has been attributed to a few things, including the handover of Nokia's devices department to Microsoft. But with the way Microsoft is giving users of their services a superior experience on iOS & Android, the reasons to use WP are declining. Will this hemorrhaging turn around? There is still no sign of a flagship Lumia coming anytime soon. The one rumored to be coming was canceled.

I still don't think that WP is going away, at least not anytime soon. Microsoft will keep throwing money at it for awhile if necessary. But I do think that the losses will eventually end one way or another; either by becoming profitable or shutting the doors.

 

[spaulagain]

Yeah that makes sense. I'm not quite as optimistic as you are though. It's true that Apple's market share is declining, but at least actual numbers are still going up. WP is losing both market share and absolute numbers, according to Q2 2013 to Q2 2014. This has been attributed to a few things, including the handover of Nokia's devices department to Microsoft. But with the way Microsoft is giving users of their services a superior experience on iOS & Android, the reasons to use WP are declining. Will this hemorrhaging turn around? There is still no sign of a flagship Lumia coming anytime soon. The one rumored to be coming was canceled.

I still don't think that WP is going away, at least not anytime soon. Microsoft will keep throwing money at it for awhile if necessary. But I do think that the losses will end one way or another; either by becoming profitable or shutting the doors.

WP will survive as Windows. It may take years as a smartphone OS, but will do fine as a tablet/desktop OS which will eventually impact smartphone market share.

 

[fatclue_98]

WP will survive as Windows. It may take years as a smartphone OS, but will do fine as a tablet/desktop OS which will eventually impact smartphone market share.

Well the desktop OS couldn't be in better shape with 95% worldwide adoption. I do think W9 and its supposed cross-device amalgamation will be a shot in the arm for the phone division.

Sent from my LG G3 via Tapatalk

 

[vlad0]

I agree that the limitation is in the hardware, but my reasoning might be a bit different than the most of the users.

None of the Nokia flagship phones have user replaceable batteries. For a person who keeps the phone for 3 years before replacing, I know that the battery is the first one to go, as the current lithium batteries start to show its age at the 1 year mark. And I am happy to use a bit of screw drivers to get the battery out, but the Nokia designs do not even allow that. They are extremely hard to be serviced afterwards.

For instance, Nokia N8, even though it had a sealed in battery, that battery was easily removable. I am not even asking for a full Samsung like removable battery.

Until Nokia improves its serviceability in their designs, I won't be picking up any Windows Phones anytime soon.

I am on the same page, and the only thing you can do to prolong your battery's life is to NOT let it drain all the way to zero.. I know its hard to do, but if you start charging it at the 20-30% it will sustain capacity for a much longer period of time.

 

[skstrials]

Ok, let me clarify, of the OEMs that make up the majority (87%) of Androids market share, Samsung is the only one that's truly had real success. They are struggling a little now because their last 3 Galaxy models have all been recycled designs and they aren't doing well in budget phones now. Here is the market make up...

View attachment 81572

Samsung 65% - Doing pretty well
LG 7% - Doing well
HTC 6% - How much longer will they last?
Sony 5% - See article above
Motorola 4% - BAD, do we even need to discuss?
Other 13% - this last bit is the bottom feeders like Lenovo and Xiaomi

And BlackBerry? They are essentially dead as a smartphone OEM. And they aren't even an Android manufacture which is who we were talking about.

Your Android data is actually outdated now.

Xiaomi just overtook Samsung in the Chinese market Xiaomi Overtakes Samsung in China Smartphone Market - Digits - WSJ

Samsung also just got overtaken in India as well Business Standard

The Chinese and the Indian market are the biggest markets in the world, and Samsung just got overtaken by the local companies.

And Samsung's profit is the lowest in two years right now http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/72d46080-0641-11e4-8b94-00144feab7de.html

Samsung used to do well because their hardware was actually nice compared to the competition, now every cheap Chinese manufacturer can match Samsung in their build quality and specs.

And LG's G3 is a major hit, and LG is no longer losing money in the market.

In that sense, it's going to be a lot more than just the three major manufacturers in the market.

 

[vlad0]

The main reason Microsoft bought the Nokia's mobile division was to prevent them from going 100% Android..

They have a very clear precedent of what happens if Nokia chooses another OS instead of Microsoft's.. Windows Mobile suffered trough that when Nokia went with Symbian instead of Windows Mobile in the 90's. Symbian went out to dominate the smartphone market, very much like Android is doing now, and Win Mobile never gained traction. If the same thing happened this time around WP will be gone within a few years, so they had to make sure that doesn't happen.

I am not sure if they had a clear idea of what to do with it all, I just know that they needed to prevent the last large OEM (can't quite call them that but whatever) to go with Android. Maybe that's why we are seeing a slow down in the high end bracket..

They are lucky that Nokia saw Google as their main rival for so many years... if Nokia and Google were on better terms it would've been even more difficult for MS. A classic pre-emptive strike, and it worked very well.

 

[tgp]

The main reason Microsoft bought the Nokia's mobile division was to prevent them from going 100% Android..

Do we know this for sure? Nokia put a lot of effort into WP. So much so that from the outside it appeared that they were doing more for WP than Microsoft themselves were. If WP is fundamentally superior, why would Nokia want to go Android? WP is smooth, fast, bug free, secure, no lag after time, doesn't crash, and has an adequate ecosystem. It doesn't make sense to me that Nokia was on the brink of going Android given WP's advantages & their alliance with Microsoft.

 

[spaulagain]

Your Android data is actually outdated now.

Xiaomi just overtook Samsung in the Chinese market Xiaomi Overtakes Samsung in China Smartphone Market - Digits - WSJ

Samsung also just got overtaken in India as well Business Standard

The Chinese and the Indian market are the biggest markets in the world, and Samsung just got overtaken by the local companies.

And Samsung's profit is the lowest in two years right now http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/72d46080-0641-11e4-8b94-00144feab7de.html

Samsung used to do well because their hardware was actually nice compared to the competition, now every cheap Chinese manufacturer can match Samsung in their build quality and specs.

And LG's G3 is a major hit, and LG is no longer losing money in the market.

In that sense, it's going to be a lot more than just the three major manufacturers in the market.

How is my data outdated? That graph is from February. While not the most up to date, it's recent enough to go off of.

And you're highlighting specific markets, I was talking about globally. Like I said before, Xiaomi and LG will continue to be the bottom feeders.

I just said LG is doing well, but their market share is still dismal compared to Samsung's Android market share.

Samsung is in a slump as far as growth right now but they know it and I think will change things to right their path again. I don't see any of the other Android OEMs taking over Samsung as the lead in market share. Maybe if Samsung keeps sucking for the next 4-5 years.

 

[spaulagain]

Do we know this for sure? Nokia put a lot of effort into WP. So much so that from the outside it appeared that they were doing more for WP than Microsoft themselves were. If WP is fundamentally superior, why would Nokia want to go Android? WP is smooth, fast, bug free, secure, no lag after time, doesn't crash, and has an adequate ecosystem. It doesn't make sense to me that Nokia was on the brink of going Android given WP's advantages & their alliance with Microsoft.

I don't think we know for sure. The just speculation. We know they were playing around with, but whether they were prepared to go to market is hard to say.

 

[tgp]

I don't think we know for sure. The just speculation. We know they were playing around with, but whether they were prepared to go to market is hard to say.

Agreed. We don't know. I actually wonder if Microsoft wasn't behind the whole Nokia X project from the beginning. It is my understanding that Nokia signed some kind of exclusivity agreement with Microsoft. I of course do not know all the details, but weren't there restrictions on Nokia using other OS's? Would Nokia have been free to go ahead with an OS other than WP without Microsoft's blessing?

I also believe that WP has a lot going for it in its speed and smoothness. Not that it's extraordinarily fast, but it's fairly consistent. It doesn't seem to be as sensitive to hardware differences as early versions of Android. WP also is not completely bug free, but in my experience it's more because of apps than the OS.

However, I will say that recent versions of Android are much better than they were. A lot of stuff said about Android is stretched at best. Maybe a couple years ago the accusations would have been more valid. If it was all valid now I believe we'd see more parity in market share. It isn't all just marketing, or lack of it.

A couple weeks ago my Nexus 5 rebooted after 1,700 hours of uptime. It was running from July 1 to September 10. I took a screenshot showing 1,698 hours, and then it crashed an hour or two later. And it's not like it was sitting on the nightstand plugged in. It's my daily driver, and I use it all the time. But for the record, it was getting buggy the last couple of weeks! But by that time, the hours were high enough that I wanted to see how long it would go, so I kept it running it until it crashed.

Here's the last screenshot I have before it rebooted:

 

[fatclue_98]

Agreed. We don't know. I actually wonder if Microsoft wasn't behind the whole Nokia X project from the beginning. It is my understanding that Nokia signed some kind of exclusivity agreement with Microsoft. I of course do not know all the details, but weren't there restrictions on Nokia using other OS's? Would Nokia have been free to go ahead with an OS other than WP without Microsoft's blessing?

I also believe that WP has a lot going for it in its speed and smoothness. Not that it's extraordinarily fast, but it's fairly consistent. It doesn't seem to be as sensitive to hardware differences as early versions of Android. WP also is not completely bug free, but in my experience it's more because of apps than the OS.

However, I will say that recent versions of Android are much better than they were. A lot of stuff said about Android is stretched at best. Maybe a couple years ago the accusations would have been more valid. If it was all valid now I believe we'd see more parity in market share. It isn't all just marketing, or lack of it.

A couple weeks ago my Nexus 5 rebooted after 1,700 hours of uptime. It was running from July 1 to September 10. I took a screenshot showing 1,698 hours, and then it crashed an hour or two later. And it's not like it was sitting on the nightstand plugged in. It's my daily driver, and I use it all the time. But for the record, it was getting buggy the last couple of weeks! But by that time, the hours were high enough that I wanted to see how long it would go, so I kept it running it until it crashed.

Here's the last screenshot I have before it rebooted:

View attachment 81684

I was up to 1800 hours on my Blu tablet before I did a reset. Blu no less!!! The only reason to do the reset was to pull the SIM & SD card out. Android has come a long way no doubt, but it's got a ways to go.

 

[WPhoner]

Heres the problem.
I think people have seen the WP vs iphone, cortana vs siri commercials and are pretty intrigued by now.
Every time I bring my 920 out.. someone leans in and asks "how do you like it?"
- that said..
My 920, after 2 years is up for renewal pretty soon so I cruised over to my carrier -Rogers (toronto) only to find that there was only ONE model to be had. (the 635) Every day on the wpcentral site I'm reading about new models coming out yet the carriers (in Canada at least) aren't carrying them!
After Rogers I went to Bell, then Telus, and then even the smaller Chatr, Fido, Koodo they all carried ONE phone!!!
Sometimes it was the 635, sometimes the 520, Bells only phone is the ATIV S.. that thing came out before my 920 #forcryingoutloud!

NO WONDER NO ONE IS BUYING A WINDOWS PHONE!
there is no choice!

Not one of these carriers even showed different models on the same page to make it LOOK like they had stock.
(wheres the 1020 rogers?, 720, 730, 1520, ICON, 930 925 I know Im missing some.. and that's also what make it so ridiculous)

Telus for one has TWELVE iphones at the top of the page before you get to even the android section..
EG: iphone 6 16G / iphone 6 32G / iphone 6 64G / iphone 5S 8G... etc.
each item has a picture of the same phone and (same) color options showcasing iphone in all its glory (taking up 4 rows on the page make the user scroll)

When you DO scroll past iphone, then past Android and all of its models you come to a lonely WP 635 sitting there all by itself in the "windows phone" row.

Branding for the iphone is consistent across ALL of the carriers. Apple has provided (apple approved) images for them to use. you see the same branding no matter what site you are looking at.. genius. They've (apple) probably mandated that each version (of the same damn model) must be showcased as though it was a completely different phone.. (that's what it FELT like to me drowning in a sea of Apple options anyway, if Im here to buy a phone? the choice is simple "..look at how many apple phones there are!")

What is Microsoft doing to MAKE SURE their product is being represented in a positive light?! -nothing. If I was the average consumer on ANY one of the Canadian carriers websites, Windows Phone looks pretty lame. it would be the LAST phone I would consider.

Rogers:
http://www.rogers.com/web/link/wire...=PhoneThenPlan&productType=normal&N=52+11+282
Telus
Smartphones, iPhone and plans | Mobility | TELUS.com
Bell:
Windows phones from Bell Mobility | Bell Canada
Fido:
Windows | Phones & Devices | Shop | Fido.ca
Chatr:
chatr wireless - Phones
Koodo:
https://shop.koodomobile.com/koodo-cell-phones/windows/c99999903-cWindows-p0.html


/misrepresented.

 

[xxxneoxxx]

Well, over here in the Netherlands, SIM ONLY contract are getting more and more popular. I hope for u guys this trend is coming your way aswell. Just buy a phone yourselves, and only pay a low montly fee for callls, texts (who does that anymore anyways?) and internet. No high monthly fees since u don't "buy" a phone "on account" from them. Instead, you keep using your current phone, or buy another phone to your liking from anywhere u want. No limitations, no high monthly fee where you pay 1,5 times the price of your phone back to the provider in monthly payments or whatever. Also, no provider branding. Freedom.

 

[pjs37]

Heres the problem.
I think people have seen the WP vs iphone, cortana vs siri commercials and are pretty intrigued by now.
Every time I bring my 920 out.. someone leans in and asks "how do you like it?"
- that said..
My 920, after 2 years is up for renewal pretty soon so I cruised over to my carrier -Rogers (toronto) only to find that there was only ONE model to be had. (the 635) Every day on the wpcentral site I'm reading about new models coming out yet the carriers (in Canada at least) aren't carrying them!
After Rogers I went to Bell, then Telus, and then even the smaller Chatr, Fido, Koodo they all carried ONE phone!!!
Sometimes it was the 635, sometimes the 520, Bells only phone is the ATIV S.. that thing came out before my 920 #forcryingoutloud!

NO WONDER NO ONE IS BUYING A WINDOWS PHONE!
there is no choice!

Not one of these carriers even showed different models on the same page to make it LOOK like they had stock.
(wheres the 1020 rogers?, 720, 730, 1520, ICON, 930 925 I know Im missing some.. and that's also what make it so ridiculous)

Telus for one has TWELVE iphones at the top of the page before you get to even the android section..
EG: iphone 6 16G / iphone 6 32G / iphone 6 64G / iphone 5S 8G... etc.
each item has a picture of the same phone and (same) color options showcasing iphone in all its glory (taking up 4 rows on the page make the user scroll)

When you DO scroll past iphone, then past Android and all of its models you come to a lonely WP 635 sitting there all by itself in the "windows phone" row.

Branding for the iphone is consistent across ALL of the carriers. Apple has provided (apple approved) images for them to use. you see the same branding no matter what site you are looking at.. genius. They've (apple) probably mandated that each version (of the same damn model) must be showcased as though it was a completely different phone.. (that's what it FELT like to me drowning in a sea of Apple options anyway, if Im here to buy a phone? the choice is simple "..look at how many apple phones there are!")

What is Microsoft doing to MAKE SURE their product is being represented in a positive light?! -nothing. If I was the average consumer on ANY one of the Canadian carriers websites, Windows Phone looks pretty lame. it would be the LAST phone I would consider.

Rogers:
http://www.rogers.com/web/link/wire...=PhoneThenPlan&productType=normal&N=52+11+282
Telus
Smartphones, iPhone and plans | Mobility | TELUS.com
Bell:
Windows phones from Bell Mobility | Bell Canada
Fido:
Windows | Phones & Devices | Shop | Fido.ca
Chatr:
chatr wireless - Phones
Koodo:
https://shop.koodomobile.com/koodo-cell-phones/windows/c99999903-cWindows-p0.html


/misrepresented.

Well you hit on the reason I left. had a 920 went to upgrade and there was the 1520 which I felt was too big; the 1020 which is basically a 920 and a 630 and yeah no. Only thing coming was the 830 and that already is sacrificing some features my 920 has. So color me less then impressed. So I jumped ship. But I will keep an eye out.

As for the Apple thing Apple has a lot of power over retailers and can control a lot of that because every US carrier wanted to carrier the iPhone.