• Welcome to the all-new Windows Central Forums! - We're still moving some things around, so you may see a few quirks here and there, but we're working on getting things fully completed as soon as possible. For now, take a look around, and if you run into any major issues, please let us know in this thread!

Here's A Compelling Case For Killing Windows Phone

Status
Not open for further replies.

salmanahmad

Banned
May 12, 2014
1,206
0
0
EXACTLY. That's why they should make the microsoft services exclusive to windows. The same way apple services will never be released to any other phone platform (Beats Music was not originally apple's).

On this particular issue I would just like to say that Microsoft is working on improving their own services for Windows Phone.

The OneDrive app has better saving options on Windows Phone allowing you to download and store files virtually anywhere, Skype looks better visually on Windows Phone.

But other than that OneDrive shows me progress of downloads in the notification tray and tells me the ETA, Skype for Android absolutely crushes the Windows Phone app in speed(and somewhat functionality) and Outlook.com is straight out more functional and beautiful on Android, albeit lacking the awesome Windows Phone animations.

Some of the extended features of Microsoft's own services only found on Android are because of bottlenecks in the Windows Phone OS.
 

fatclue_98

Retired Moderator
Apr 1, 2012
9,145
0
36
EXACTLY. That's why they should make the microsoft services exclusive to windows. The same way apple services will never be released to any other phone platform (Beats Music was not originally apple's).

Apple wasn't the best example. They have no services at all. No native email, documents, nothing. Google and Microsoft are the only games in town. Yahoo is just email, SugarSync only offers storage and that's about it.

Sent from my LIFE VIEW TAB using WPCentral Forums mobile app
 

Laura Knotek

Moderator
Mar 31, 2012
29,365
4
38
EXACTLY. That's why they should make the microsoft services exclusive to windows. The same way apple services will never be released to any other phone platform (Beats Music was not originally apple's).


iTunes would've been a failure had it not been available to PC users.
 

bilzkh

New member
Aug 10, 2011
705
0
0
Who says Windows Phone has to be killed? But for people to try it out Microsoft would again have to try to do something that will earn them a negative reputation, get Android apps because there is really no other way, developers don't really take this OS seriously.
This idea of 'getting Android apps' doesn't mean anything in practice. Either you switch to Android (via Google) and just join in on the Google Play Store, or you - via AOSP - try and attract Android developers. Given Microsoft's circumstances (i.e. services), it'll end up the AOSP route and we're back at square one, attracting developers and vendors to a your platform. It might be easier but it's no guarantee, Blackberry tried with the BB10, but it didn't turn up. In fact, Windows Phone did exponentially better attracting developers for new apps and games than BB10, despite not having any relation to Android.
And the more OEMs that join in, it's a double edged sword. What I mean is that before only a brand that was reputable "Nokia" was producing the majority of Windows Phones but now that you see more of them made by companies like Micromax(which has somewhat of a bad reputation in India) you'll start to see more fragmentation and Windows Phone won't be the same premium and optimized experience it used to be.
Microsoft released a reference design to these OEMs, so as to ensure that some level of consistency still exists. So the low-end Windows Phone, regardless of whether it's from Microsoft, Micromax, Karbonn, Huawei, etc, is going to be using the same core hardware, i.e. Snapdragon S200 and 512MB RAM. Now there may be variance in terms of build quality, features, etc, but these low-end OEMs are aiming for sub-$100 price points. Anyone buying a phone at such prices could care less about long-lasting quality.
Yes Windows Phone is the third largest but I don't think it'll ever go beyond that, no one does. It might establish itself as a sold third place OS but it's very unlikely that it'll go further.
Depends on the market. Windows Phone has reached 2nd place in a number of markets in Europe, Asia and Latin America, and potentially even Africa. As we're seeing in India, there's been considerable local traction in terms of local apps, services and games behind Windows Phone, e.g. Indian banks or even that IAF game, among many others. Heck, Starbucks in Mexico and I believe Russia also released apps for WP.
In Pakistan you are right we have very few companies offering phones on contracts, we have to get phones off-contract via local stores which is sometimes more expensive. But I've seen that Nokia does some decent advertising here and Lumias will often be the only devices display in shops for people to use, but has that made an impact in sales? Nope, people still walk out with their fancy new iPhone or HTC One, or Galaxy S5 and so on...
Fair enough but you're pointing out the high-end market. To be fair to Windows Phone, it's inability to capture the high-end is pretty uniform throughout the world, the iPhone and Galaxy S-series dominate the high-end everywhere.
One of my cousins and me actually tried Windows Phone by purchasing a Lumia 520 in January, my cousin switched to a Note 3 just a few months later and I asked him why.

He replied by saying that the optimization of Windows Phone even on the low-end devices is amazing but the OS is not nearly as polished as it needs to be for me to cash out over $600 for it. He's actually right.
So he went from the lowest-end Windows Phone to one of the highest-end Androids? IF he didn't have $600 to spend, say only $150-200, would he choose a Lumia that he knows WILL work on lower-end hardware, or on Android which has a risk of giving him trouble (on low-end hardware) in the long-term?
And Microsoft can only do so much, it's offered programs to encourage developers and even asked them, it just doesn't work.
Not sure about you but Windows Phone definitely attracted quite a few developers and vendors across the world. Compare the Windows Phone app store of 2014 to the app store in 2013 or even 2012. Today we have an official Fitbit app with a couple of competitors with apps in the pipeline, for example (among many examples, e.g. Gameloft's massive games push).

Microsoft's only alternative is to go for Android apps, another thing that may kill Windows Phone.

So really the future of Windows Phone for Microsoft is really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

I don't want it dead but it's not thriving either and eating up a lot of resources and time of Microsoft.

But I do agree with one of your points, Windows Phone is the starting point of where people begin to start using Microsoft's services. Having switched back to Android myself I still use Outlook and OneDrive, both of which have amazing apps on the Google Play Store, in fact the Outloook app is even better the Windows Phone version.

But if Microsoft's services are available on other OSes, what's the point of really going for Windows Phone? Especially when the services provided on Android and iOS are often better than the ones on Windows Phone.
So you basically got used to Microsoft's services after your experience on Windows Phone...that's my point. It's because of WP putting Microsoft's services front and center that you got the necessary amount of exposure to be bothered to find those services on Android. How many people going to Android (without having first gone to WP) would do that? Not many, not unless some external force (e.g. a company or friend) put them in that situation.
 

Laura Knotek

Moderator
Mar 31, 2012
29,365
4
38
Well iTunes might have been a failure without it being integral for use with the iPod or iPhone, especially iPhone circa 2007-2009.


But if iTunes was only available to Mac users, it would have been a failure. There wouldn't have been enough Mac users buying songs for their iPods or iPhones. Even today, most iPhone users have PCs, not Macs.
 

salmanahmad

Banned
May 12, 2014
1,206
0
0
This idea of 'getting Android apps' doesn't mean anything in practice. Either you switch to Android (via Google) and just join in on the Google Play Store, or you - via AOSP - try and attract Android developers. Given Microsoft's circumstances (i.e. services), it'll end up the AOSP route and we're back at square one, attracting developers and vendors to a your platform. It might be easier but it's no guarantee, Blackberry tried with the BB10, but it didn't turn up. In fact, Windows Phone did exponentially better attracting developers for new apps and games than BB10, despite not having any relation to Android.

Microsoft released a reference design to these OEMs, so as to ensure that some level of consistency still exists. So the low-end Windows Phone, regardless of whether it's from Microsoft, Micromax, Karbonn, Huawei, etc, is going to be using the same core hardware, i.e. Snapdragon S200 and 512MB RAM. Now there may be variance in terms of build quality, features, etc, but these low-end OEMs are aiming for sub-$100 price points. Anyone buying a phone at such prices could care less about long-lasting quality.

Depends on the market. Windows Phone has reached 2nd place in a number of markets in Europe, Asia and Latin America, and potentially even Africa. As we're seeing in India, there's been considerable local traction in terms of local apps, services and games behind Windows Phone, e.g. Indian banks or even that IAF game, among many others. Heck, Starbucks in Mexico and I believe Russia also released apps for WP.

Fair enough but you're pointing out the high-end market. To be fair to Windows Phone, it's inability to capture the high-end is pretty uniform throughout the world, the iPhone and Galaxy S-series dominate the high-end everywhere.

So he went from the lowest-end Windows Phone to one of the highest-end Androids? IF he didn't have $600 to spend, say only $150-200, would he choose a Lumia that he knows WILL work on lower-end hardware, or on Android which has a risk of giving him trouble (on low-end hardware) in the long-term?

Not sure about you but Windows Phone definitely attracted quite a few developers and vendors across the world. Compare the Windows Phone app store of 2014 to the app store in 2013 or even 2012. Today we have an official Fitbit app with a couple of competitors with apps in the pipeline, for example (among many examples, e.g. Gameloft's massive games push).


So you basically got used to Microsoft's services after your experience on Windows Phone...that's my point. It's because of WP putting Microsoft's services front and center that you got the necessary amount of exposure to be bothered to find those services on Android. How many people going to Android (without having first gone to WP) would do that? Not many, not unless some external force (e.g. a company or friend) put them in that situation.

As far as apps go, Microsoft sure did convince a number of them to join Windows Phone but was nonetheless unsuccessful in getting them to keep updating their apps with the latest features, examples would include Instagram BETA.Here in Pakistan we have a company called "Qmobile" and it produces terrible phones, terrible ads and also has a somewhat terrible name but it offers most of it's devices at a cheap price and also contributes to the fragmentation of the Android OS, because it never gets updated after launch.I remember when Android started handing out licenses for Android to everyone, many of my cousins using iPhone we're like iPhones are only produced by one company that maintains a standard while Android devices are made by different OEMs with bad reputations.Qmobile used to use bad SOCs for a very long time, but they finally stepped up and now are using Snapdragon 800 processors but no one(including me) will want to try them out, I would rather go for a Nokia, Samsung, etc. Maybe Microsoft maintains some kind of a standard but companies like Micromax won't update their phones like Nokia does, so Windows Phone will soon be plagued with many of the same issues as Android.

Plus Windows Phones we're pretty much popular because of the low-end Lumia 520s and since they are now being beaten by phones running Android(and getting frequent updates) such as the Moto G and Moto E, there is another opportunity gone for Windows Phone.I seriously don't think Windows Phone is going very far, at least not anymore.
 

smoledman

Banned
Apr 17, 2012
1,303
0
0
Plus Windows Phones we're pretty much popular because of the low-end Lumia 520s and since they are now being beaten by phones running Android(and getting frequent updates) such as the Moto G and Moto E, there is another opportunity gone for Windows Phone.I seriously don't think Windows Phone is going very far, at least not anymore.

I don't get what you're saying. Should Microsoft flood markets with a new 520 variant every month? These are $0 profit devices, I don't get some peoples' obsession around here with flogging those instead of the high-end profitable devices that MS needs to sell in the 10s of millions.
 

salmanahmad

Banned
May 12, 2014
1,206
0
0
I don't get what you're saying. Should Microsoft flood markets with a new 520 variant every month? These are $0 profit devices, I don't get some peoples' obsession around here with flogging those instead of the high-end profitable devices that MS needs to sell in the 10s of millions.

You seriously know barely anything about this at all. The low-end phones do make profits for OEMs and they are especially important because very few people actually purchase the high end devices!

Motorola was failing last year with it's Moto X, which was a stellar flagship but as soon as they launched Moto G and E they finally turned a profit this year, at least I heard they did.
 

Visa Declined

New member
Dec 25, 2013
700
0
0
Should Microsoft flood markets with a new 520 variant every month? These are $0 profit devices

You're missing the value Microsoft gets out of these devices: They get people using Microsoft services, they get people using Outlook, OneDrive, OneNote, and Internet Explorer, this is what matters to Microsoft. This is also the same game Google plays, and they make zero dollars from phones. Get it?
 

fatclue_98

Retired Moderator
Apr 1, 2012
9,145
0
36
You're missing the value Microsoft gets out of these devices: They get people using Microsoft services, they get people using Outlook, OneDrive, OneNote, and Internet Explorer, this is what matters to Microsoft. This is also the same game Google plays, and they make zero dollars from phones. Get it?

It's no wonder the 520 got 8.1 ahead of the 920 and other so-called high-end devices. Don't believe me? Check out the 8.1 tracker on this site. Microsoft is not a niche player, they depend on volume and the 520 is their cash cow at this moment. Sadly, many do not understand this.
 

smoledman

Banned
Apr 17, 2012
1,303
0
0
Sorry but I do not buy the idea that the 520 is making any profits. It's a loss leader so MS can say that they've sold 12 million of them. Remember that the WP division is still severely in the red.

IMHO, if they have no intentions of being in the profit-business by selling hi-end phones to compete with iPhone, Galaxy, LG, Moto they should get out altogether. There is no point in MS being a low-end phone maker.
 

Jas00555

Retired Ambassador
Jun 8, 2013
2,413
0
0
Sorry but I do not buy the idea that the 520 is making any profits. It's a loss leader so MS can say that they've sold 12 million of them. Remember that the WP division is still severely in the red.

IMHO, if they have no intentions of being in the profit-business by selling hi-end phones to compete with iPhone, Galaxy, LG, Moto they should get out altogether. There is no point in MS being a low-end phone maker.

There's no point in being high-volume, low-profit? I think many of these Chinese OEMs disagree with you. These phones are just made to flood the market and get the market share numbers up. The more people, the more developer interest. You can argue that people in the 3rd world don't buy into these services such as OneDrive, but people in the 3rd world can still snap chat and have bank accounts and be served ads on Bing (of course, they have to fix Bing outside of the US first).
 

fatclue_98

Retired Moderator
Apr 1, 2012
9,145
0
36
Sorry but I do not buy the idea that the 520 is making any profits. It's a loss leader so MS can say that they've sold 12 million of them. Remember that the WP division is still severely in the red.

IMHO, if they have no intentions of being in the profit-business by selling hi-end phones to compete with iPhone, Galaxy, LG, Moto they should get out altogether. There is no point in MS being a low-end phone maker.

You don't think those 12 million users won't be making Microsoft some paper? Sorry to tell you pal, you ain't CEO material. I guess I'll call Alan Mullaly and that broad at GM to stop selling all those Fiestas and Cruze's and just concentrate on Expeditions and Escalades.
 

smoledman

Banned
Apr 17, 2012
1,303
0
0
You don't think those 12 million users won't be making Microsoft some paper? Sorry to tell you pal, you ain't CEO material. I guess I'll call Alan Mullaly and that broad at GM to stop selling all those Fiestas and Cruze's and just concentrate on Expeditions and Escalades.

Tim Cook would laugh at the "logic" of high volume, low profits. Is Tim Cook a fool?
 

fatclue_98

Retired Moderator
Apr 1, 2012
9,145
0
36
Tim Cook would laugh at the "logic" of high volume, low profits. Is Tim Cook a fool?

Investors are usually a little smarter than we are when it comes to deciding where to put their money. I won't bore you with details but without the iPhone, Apple would be in a heap. Cook's not a fool, but the almighty Fruit Company clearly has all its eggs in one basket, and investors are watching judging by AAPL's stock price. Gone are $400+/share prices.

3 reasons why Apple badly needs a big iPhone | America's Markets
 

uopjo6

New member
Jan 5, 2012
171
0
0
I know it's a good thing... They wish MS would kill WP... but not going to happen... I see WP surpassing both of them at the rate they are going. iOS is stagnant and Google is moving forward but slower then MS. It also looks like 'L' is strikingly similar color layout as WP... Cortana is already better then Siri and will surpass Google now as well...

What rate? The 2.5% they just dropped to globally? I've been with WP for 4 years but there is absolutely NO progress.
 

Jas00555

Retired Ambassador
Jun 8, 2013
2,413
0
0
Tim Cook would laugh at the "logic" of high volume, low profits. Is Tim Cook a fool?

That's right, I forgot that Apple's model is the only one in existence and if you don't do that to the letter, you're a failure. I'll just have to go tell Microsoft, Google, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, LG, HTC, and Sony that all of their business models are failures, despite making them billions. They'll probably close down by tomorrow.
 

fatclue_98

Retired Moderator
Apr 1, 2012
9,145
0
36
What rate? The 2.5% they just dropped to globally? I've been with WP for 4 years but there is absolutely NO progress.

Are you on WP7? There's been marked progress on the OS side. I even have the luxury of bluetooth tethering finally.


Sent from my iPhone using WPCentral Forums
 
Status
Not open for further replies.