HTC Kaiser (AT&T 8925) vs. Treo 750

[taylorh]

I gave the Cingular 8125 and 8525 a shot for a few weeks each until the 8525 went defective on me, so I returned it and got the Treo 750 about a month later when it came out. Coming from the Treo 600/650 I really appreciated the form factor and above all, the ability to use the front-facing keyboard for doing menu shortcuts with the letter keys. It's something I'm glad I did. The only thing I missed was the wifi, speed (treo is sluggish), and the larger screen was nice in rare situations.
Also they did customize the 750 to bring some of the popular Treo usability to WM, like unknown caller ring tones, threaded SMS, etc.

But the Kaiser (AT&T 8925) is expected to come out in the next few months and I'm drooling. It has a fast processor, video and graphics hardware processing, GPS, not to mention WiFi, something I miss. And HSUPA with video share capability apparently. Something I'm sure I'd rarely use, but still the ability to do it would be sweet.

So I'm considering biting the bullet, giving up the wonderful Treo, and going with this. It's hard to hang on the the Treo knowing the Kaiser, a whole generation ahead, is there and available.

Kaiser Pros: Wifi, GPS, bigger screen, nice keyboard, faster HSDPA and HSUPA, video share, faster processing (video), and just about all features are 'better'.

Kaiser Cons (Treo Pros): Keyboard convenience. WM software tweaks, better one-handed use including keyboard shortcuts (frequently used), better SMS experience.

Am I the only one?
I'd like to hear other people's thoughts looking ahead to future devices.

Two final thoughs:
1) The WM6 update on the 750 may improve the Treo performance enough to extend it's usefulness.
2) If a Treo 750 were to come out with a 320x320 screen, that's better than Kaiser's 320x240 and could shift the balance significantly.

 

[Pearl_Diva]

A bit OT(sorry), but now that the 8925 is coming, do you think the 8525 will become less expensive? They already are selling for $300-$400 used.

On topic, I want to try the Kaiser too! But I'm afraid of the price. Isn't this the one that will have the 128 RAM?

 

[surur]

Not to mention the lovely 3 Megapixel camera. For once good pictures from a WM phone.

Surur

 

[taylorh]

The 8525 has already dropped in price. It's down to $300 after MIR, and $200 on Premiere.
By way of comparison, I got the Treo 750 for $175 on Premiere when the 8525 was $350.

But between the 8525 and the Treo 750, the Treo 750 wins IMO. The 8525 isn't badass enough to sway me from the Treo 750, though it's a close call.
But when you account for all of the updates in the 8925, the Treo 750 seems a whole generation behind.

I figure the price of the 8925 will be similar to what the 8525 was when it came out, about $425 after mail in rebate ($475-ish before MIR.) Somewhere in that range.

I also assume I'll be able to get it for under $350 via premiere after discounts much like the 8525 ($325 after MIR on premiere for the 8525.)
So if you don't have premiere, it sucks. But if you do, you should get to upgrade (rather than wait or pay full price,) and get another $75 or so off. Though on premiere they do sometimes inflate the price by $25/$30.


Here are the abbreviated specs:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=733

Operating System: Windows Mobile 6 Professional AKU 0.2.2
CPU: 32bit Qualcomm MSM7200 Chipset
CPU Clock: 384 MHz
ROM capacity: 256 MB (accessible: 145.24MB)
RAM capacity: 128 MB
Display Resolution: 240 x 320
Cellular Networks: GSM850, GSM900, GSM1800, GSM1900, UMTS850, UMTS1900, UMTS2100
Cellular Data Link: CSD, GPRS, EDGE, UMTS, HSD, HSUPA
Bluetooth: Bluetooth 2.0
Wireless LAN: 802.11b, 802.11g
Built-in GPS: NMEA 0183 , 20 channels
Main Camera: CMOS sensor, 2.8MP
Autofocus (AF): Supported
Secondary Camera: CMOS sensor, 640x480 pixel

While the clock speed is lower than the 8525, the processor is actually faster. It also has a dedicated video processor and graphics processor to free up the CPU.
Also notice the autofocus on the camera.

 

[taylorh]

Not to mention the lovely 3 Megapixel camera. For once good pictures from a WM phone.

Surur

And "Autofocus" to boot. I wonder how well it actually works. No flash on this one but the CCD is said to be good in low light.

 

[surur]

And "Autofocus" to boot. I wonder how well it actually works. No flash on this one but the CCD is said to be good in low light.

The answer is pretty good. See some example pictures here.

http://www.modaco.com/Paul-Reviews-HTC-P45-t256569.html

Surur

 

[conekkted]

Ugh. Another side-sliding keybord. That is just a deal-breaker for those of us who type often throughout the day, regardless of its awesome specs. Am I the only one that loved the form factor of the SX66/XV6600 from HTC? With all the advances in technology and slimmer sizes that have come out since the original Blue Angel, an updated model would be awesome. Unfortunately the Blue Angel suffered from bad software (WM2003, BT stack). The hardware was great. The fact that you had an accessible keyboard AND the large screen was the best of both worlds. I found many cases that allowed me to slide the keyboard open without unsnapping, unzipping or flipping anything. Man, I loved that old hunk of junk.

 

[surur]

Ugh. Another side-sliding keybord. That is just a deal-breaker for those of us who type often throughout the day, regardless of its awesome specs. Am I the only one that loved the form factor of the SX66/XV6600 from HTC? With all the advances in technology and slimmer sizes that have come out since the original Blue Angel, an updated model would be awesome. Unfortunately the Blue Angel suffered from bad software (WM2003, BT stack). The hardware was great. The fact that you had an accessible keyboard AND the large screen was the best of both worlds. I found many cases that allowed me to slide the keyboard open without unsnapping, unzipping or flipping anything. Man, I loved that old hunk of junk.

There is the HTC Nike coming soon with that form factor, but its not QWERTY.

It has HSDPA, GPS and an FM radio however. It looks like it will have the HTC Touch interface, but with better,faster hardware (says a new HTC Touch owner )

Surur

 

[skfny]

The Kaiser is very tempting- luckily I'm protected by my Sprint contract and the great SERO plan.

Seriously, I think the 800w matches most of these specs if the rumors are true. (GPS, WiFi, 128/256, 320x320 but no 3MP camera).

 

[oalvarez]

oh no....not another 6600/i730!!! please tell me it doesn't telescope to the ridiculous lengths the aforementioned did. i must say that the features and capabilities are solid. looks like yet another great device for those who don't type very frequently and don't mind a larger form-factor.

 

[surur]

If you are talking about the Nike, when closed its about 4 inches long, and when open its adds a bit more than an inch. Its 15 mm thick, which is 0.6 inches. (106x53x15 mm)

Its smaller in all dimensions than a Treo 680, and also smaller than an iPhone, except for the thickness, where its 0.13 inches thicker.

Surur

 

[mobileman]

If you are talking about the Nike, when closed its about 4 inches long, and when open its adds a bit more than an inch. Its 15 mm thick, which is 0.6 inches. (106x53x15 mm)

Its smaller in all dimensions than a Treo 680, and also smaller than an iPhone, except for the thickness, where its 0.13 inches thicker.

Surur

Actually, that hardware looks pretty neat. Two things I would hate though. The 2.6 inch screen is very small, and the resolution of 320x240 is the same as my old jornada 560 from 6 years ago. Why doesn't this (and all new htc devices) have 320x480? I can't look at another WM device again until they bump up the rez.

Put a high resolution screenin the kaiser, and you have a winner.

 

[surur]

Actually, that hardware looks pretty neat. Two things I would hate though. The 2.6 inch screen is very small, and the resolution of 320x240 is the same as my old jornada 560 from 6 years ago. Why doesn't this (and all new htc devices) have 320x480? I can't look at another WM device again until they bump up the rez.

Put a high resolution screenin the kaiser, and you have a winner.

The DPI of that screen is actually 154 dpi, not far off from the much vaunted iPhone's 160 dpi.

WM does not support 320x480. It supports 220x176, 240x240, 320x240, 320x320, 480x480, 640x480, and 800x480.
(edit: there is no 480x480 device AFAIK, and the 320x320 Treo hasn't shown up yet, but we all know it will)

There are devices available in all those resolutions. Here's a list of devices with VGA screens http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdalist&list=vga

As to the reason why the screens are not all VGA, I'm sure these 3 reasons apply:

1) QVGA screens are a lot cheaper than VGA screens, especially at the very high DPI we are talking about (VGA in 2.6 inches would be 300 DPI).
2) The screen is already very sharp, and there would not be big improvements in the amount of information viewable (although it would look nicer).
3) VGA devices use more memory (due to higher res graphics), are slower due to moving 4 times as much data around, and there is a small impact on battery life due to the increased video activity.

Anyway, those are the reasons. I'm sure number 1 is the main reason however, and I, like you, would prefer to have the option of a higher res screen, and would pay (a reasonable amount) more for it if all else remains equal.

Surur

 

[taylorh]

The Kaiser is very tempting- luckily I'm protected by my Sprint contract and the great SERO plan.

Seriously, I think the 800w matches most of these specs if the rumors are true. (GPS, WiFi, 128/256, 320x320 but no 3MP camera).

Unfortunately I'm not going to Sprint, there's just no way. But if they brought that 800w or similar to AT&T, I'd gladly take that over the Kaiser.
320x320, 120/256, Wifi. 3MP camera isn't a big deal, and GPS is a nice to have.
So maybe I'll end up with the kaiser until the 800w comes to GSM/UMTS. After all, if it's just coming to Sprint soon, then it'll be at least a year before we see it on AT&T. LOL, that way I can learn to loathe the slider keyboard enough to be glad to get back to the Treo!

 

[bloodycape77]

I really like the Kaiser. I remeber seing pics the HTC TyTN took and it was acutally solid, but the Kaiser takes it to another level. I would not mind an HTC Nike with a full qwerty keyboard. How fast is HSUPA? Is that like 3.25G for GSM or is that more equal to EVDO rev.A? Oh last I check AT&T sells the TyTN refurbished for about 100 on their site.

This Samsung WM phone aint bad either.

 

[wookiee2cu]

As others have said, I think the slide out keyboard is what is going to prevent some people from purchasing it. I?ve had the Treo 600,650 then went to the HTC 8125, then a non PDA phone and then picked up the Treo 750. I prefer the WM os and the front loaded keyboard to me is so much nicer than having to flip the phone around and slide out the keyboard. This is just personal preference but it?s what is going to keep me from buying one of those devices again, regardless of the features it has.

 

[Hargoth]

Why does PDAdb.net only feature Windows devices? In comparison, WM is in the vast minority of available mobile phones, yet that site makes it seem that WM is all there is. Who pays the bills there, Bill?

 

[surur]

Why does PDAdb.net only feature Windows devices? In comparison, WM is in the vast minority of available mobile phones, yet that site makes it seem that WM is all there is. Who pays the bills there, Bill?

It may surprise you, but WM does actually have its fans AND fan sites too.

Surur

 

[taylorh]

I really like the Kaiser. I remeber seing pics the HTC TyTN took and it was acutally solid, but the Kaiser takes it to another level. I would not mind an HTC Nike with a full qwerty keyboard. How fast is HSUPA? Is that like 3.25G for GSM or is that more equal to EVDO rev.A? Oh last I check AT&T sells the TyTN refurbished for about 100 on their site.

This Samsung WM phone aint bad either.

HSUPA is faster upload ("U" for upload).

High-Speed Packet Access (HSPA)
_High Speed Downlink Packet Access (HSDPA)
_High Speed Uplink Packet Access (HSUPA)

Hermes/TyTn/8525 = HSDPA1.3 (1.3M down) / HSDPA 384k up (UMTS)
Kaiser/P4550/8925 = HSDPA3.6 (3.6M down) / HSUPA 1.5M up??
Treo 750 = UMTS 384/384, upgrade soon to HSDPA 1.3/384.

I'm not totally sure on the HSUPA speed, I can't seem to find that info.

The Upload speed primarily helps with video conferencing and video share. The TyTn and P4550 are both designed for 2-way video conferencing with a front camera. Cingular took the 8525 and took the camera off, they may do so with the P4550 (Kaiser) as well on the 8925.

So while AT&T doesn't do video conferencing, they have just started video share which is basically a 1-way video conference. It's not clear that the 8925 will indeed support this but it's very likely.
This is from a post on Howardforums.com:

Posted by: austin_boy

The radio on Kaiser is amazing. The advantage of the QC chipset 7200 is that everything is implemented on it including gpsOne, Wifi, HSPA, EDGE
hsdpa CAN REACH 7.2 MBPS IF ENOUGH T1's are avalable but likely to get 2Mbs plus since AT&T is beefing the backbone. HSUPA which is curently being deployed in AT&T network ( December 07) will enable the Kaiser to have 2Mbps on the uplink !!!!!! You will be able to use videoshare and let your loved one see you live on PC !!! (mid 08). ABC news will be equiping all journalist with videoshare enabled phones to go live on the air by dialing a number anytime anywhere. I am using MP3 radio streaming radio 128kbps in the bay area while driving and no buffer or interuption. I tested all kind of phones 2g and 3g and this one is impressive. Couldn't get GPS to work with google maps though
The Kaiser is A REAL kAISER!!

I'm not so sure about the HSDPA7.2, so far my research says 3.6 and I assume the HSUPA is 1.5, but I don't know, 2.0 is possible.

What ABC news is doing sounds pretty cool. I wonder news agencies will start letting you upload video to them the way they're now accepting video clips and photos. Of course you'll have to pay for the air time yourself

 

[taylorh]

last update from HoFo posters is that the Kaiser is to be called the "Tilt" ("AT&T Tilt". I assume like most phones it'll have the model number as well as the marketed name.
So I assume AT&T 8925 aka AT&T Tilt, which is the AT&T derrivative of the HTC TyTn II (P4550.)

I still haven't decided to jump on this or stick with my beloved Treo 750.