Hugely Disappointed in 8.1 Backup

[jhoff80]

One of the biggest things that I've been excited about was the fact that WP 8.1 is supposed to actually have true device backup. The first Build session that I watched that touched on backup was The New Windows Phone Application Model | Build 2014 | Channel 9 which gave a small summary of the Data Backup and Roaming functionality.



Basically, what they talked about during this slide is simple. There are two options for carrying data between devices. The first is Roaming, where every application has access to 100KB of OneDrive storage. This storage does not count against the user's quota and is designed for stuff that's always updating and transferring between Windows devices (whether those are phones or PCs/tablets).

The second is that each app has the ability to backup its main data storage to OneDrive. This does count against the user's OneDrive quota, but is designed to be a more complete backup of all application data. It's backed up daily, and you have the option to restore to it whenever you set up a device.

So far, so good. There was then a more in-depth talk (which admittedly, I haven't seen yet - it will be posted in its entirety in about a day or two) today. I saw some slides from it that gave a little more information (on Twitter, courtesy of Justin Angel).



It wasn't until this next slide that I saw a problem, which is exactly what I was concerned about in the first place:



First of all, developers can opt out of having their data backed up. I have no idea why any developer would choose to do that, but it could be a bad experience for consumers, so I hope that none of them do.

Secondly, and far worse, is that for all current apps (Silverlight 8.0) and most games (XNA), the default setting is that data will NOT be backed up. Maybe for developers there would be a valid reason (and again I haven?t seen the talk that this slide is from), but for end-users this is absolutely terrible. It means that pretty much any app you have installed on your phone right now will need an update before its content will be backed up. So for all those old apps that aren?t updated anymore? You?re out of luck entirely. And even the stuff that is still actively worked on won?t back up its data until the developer pushes out an update either. So if you buy a new Lumia 930 to upgrade to from your 8.1 dev preview 920? Sure, you'll get new apps that do retain your data, but for most of what you're already using, you're starting over from scratch again. :angry:

 

[pdelvo]

The data can contain very personal data which you as a user and developer really dont want to send to the cloud. If you have a app that manages your bank account Im sure you dont want to have it automaticly sent its data to a cloud service where you dont have any control over. And there is another problem. As a developer if you write your app you can be sure that if you write data to your storage the phone you are running on will be the same all the time. And loading a backup on another phone can make the app useless and crash. These are some reasons why not backing up is the better way to go

 

[jhoff80]

To the first point, I get what you're saying sort of, but the end-user already has total control of whether everything is backed up or not. And those bank apps can easily opt-out.

I'm not quite understanding your second point, to be honest.

I think the thing is though, that backup is something that has completely been terrible on Windows Phone 7 and 8. The number of apps that need to not backup are far fewer than the number of apps that really should backup. Therefore, it makes far more sense (and works out far better for the end-user) if everything defaulted to be backed up. It's like one speaker mentioned about SD card app installs... to paraphrase: "you can turn this feature off, but to be honest we'd prefer if everyone used it, so we're defaulting it to on". Backups really should have been handled the same way.

 

[illidanx]

I guess you can email the developers of the apps you like to ask them to upgrade their apps to Silverlight 8.1. XNA games are dead end though.

 

[Joe920]

You have to admit that the full device backups in iOS are kind of genius. Buy a new iPhone, restore from backup, boom, everything is where it was on your old phone. When I updated from a 920 to a 1020 I was pretty annoyed by the amount of configuration that had to be done. Hey, at least the endless tile shuffling is no longer needed!

 

[rockstarzzz]

In laymen's terms doesn't it simply mean - WP8 apps can't use WP8.1 backup functions by default? Simple answer is, devs need to update their apps to new OS. What's wrong in that? What's the disappointment?

Look at XP - the software that wasn't ever forced to upgrade during XP days, have left UK Govt. to pay ?5.5 million for one year of extra support. Had those software be made with future proof way or at least updated in last 12 years into a format that was compatible for Windows 7 or Windows 8 - it would have saved hassle for both customers and end users.

Trick here seems to be, update apps asap to use this function. Devs have been given the SDK in advance, they will get dev preview to work with and check the updated apps and after 2 months the OS roll out starts to masses. As an end user, it sucks to be served by developers who don't give a damn about you, but am sure developers like Rudy or those who care about the platform and any revenue they generate from it, will be quick to push out relevant updates.

 

[jhoff80]

In laymen's terms doesn't it simply mean - WP8 apps can't use WP8.1 backup functions by default? Simple answer is, devs need to update their apps to new OS. What's wrong in that? What's the disappointment?

Look at XP - the software that wasn't ever forced to upgrade during XP days, have left UK Govt. to pay ?5.5 million for one year of extra support. Had those software be made with future proof way or at least updated in last 12 years into a format that was compatible for Windows 7 or Windows 8 - it would have saved hassle for both customers and end users.

Trick here seems to be, update apps asap to use this function. Devs have been given the SDK in advance, they will get dev preview to work with and check the updated apps and after 2 months the OS roll out starts to masses. As an end user, it sucks to be served by developers who don't give a damn about you, but am sure developers like Rudy or those who care about the platform and any revenue they generate from it, will be quick to push out relevant updates.

The disappointment is exactly that. WP developers have an absolutely terrible track record of updating their apps (and that's especially true for any of the games out there). It doesn't matter to an end-user if the developer cares about the platform or not - if their data doesn't back up, it doesn't back up.

 

[GoodThings2Life]

The disappointment is exactly that. WP developers have an absolutely terrible track record of updating their apps (and that's especially true for any of the games out there). It doesn't matter to an end-user if the developer cares about the platform or not - if their data doesn't back up, it doesn't back up.

I disagree. I think a lot of devs do update well. I down rate and remove apps that don't. Game devs, more true, but I care less about my settings.

 

[CSMR250]

It all looks quite impressive to me. I don't know why you would be disappointed.

If you installed apps targeting WP8 you would not have expected them to be backed up. And they are not.

Some apps might have many gigabytes of data. Backing up this data to the cloud is expensive. If this data is not deemed important, e.g. game save states, then it should not be forced to back up.

 

[jhoff80]

If you installed apps targeting WP8 you would not have expected them to be backed up. And they are not.

Some apps might have many gigabytes of data. Backing up this data to the cloud is expensive. If this data is not deemed important, e.g. game save states, then it should not be forced to back up.

Do you really think the user is going to not expect the majority of their apps (which for a long time are going to be WP8.0) to be backed up there, when 8.1's backup says "Most apps' data" will be backed up? You don't think that a person instead is going to be gravely disappointed when they get a new device, and their Temple Run scores or their Final Fantasy game is lost? Or when they have to re-log in to every service that they have an app for on their phone? I know I'm not the norm, but when I buy a new phone and have to spend hours getting it set up, that means that there's a ton of frustration in order.

I also don't know of any app which would have many gigabytes of data. The app itself (or more likely game) might be many gigabytes, but that is going to come directly from the store anyway. Looking through my Nokia Storage Check, the app data is miniscule compared to the apps themselves.

I disagree. I think a lot of devs do update well. I down rate and remove apps that don't. Game devs, more true, but I care less about my settings.

Yeah I'm sorry but I can't really agree on this. I myself even tend to stick to apps that people are updating, but there's a ton that just aren't. And most of these are major services. I can count on one hand the number of times LinkedIn or Foursquare have been updated. Flickr is still absolutely ancient. It's sometimes minor, but it's also a major annoyance. And as you admitted, most games (which people often put hours upon hours of play into) are put out and then never again updated.

But the biggest thing is that iOS doesn't have this problem - it does a complete backup. Android doesn't have this problem, because you have third party options. And yet on Windows Phone, we're stuck again having only a portion of our data being backed up. I could understand it if there was maybe some sort of wired option to save EVERYTHING, but there's not. And it means that losing a device or upgrading to the latest phone will still be a frustrating experience.

 

[aximtreo]

I'm more basic than any of the data saving needs expressed here. I would very much like to be able to use the Windows Phone program in Win 8 to back up my entire phone to "my local device". Then I don't have to worry about some data being vulnerable or not backed up. When I get a new phone, I simply hook it up to my device and reset to what my previous phone had installed.

Really don't understand why it's made so difficult to do such simple things.

One further benefit of this method is to make a factory reset so much easier to do. No fear of having to redo everything from before; just reset the phone and restore your backup.

 

[Markham Ranja]

Really don't understand why it's made so difficult to do such simple things.

That's because you haven't thought it through or considered all the probable scenarios which make this kind of backup a very complex thing.

Imagine if you backed up your 520 and upgraded to a 925 or a 1520. The screen sizes are different. How does the system reconcile the different sizes?

Or if you restored backup from a 32GB where you used more than 16 GB, to a 16 GB device. How does the tool figure out what to restore?

What if you wanted to restore from a GDR3 device to a GDR2? How should it handle apps that can't run on GDR2?

You and me might be able to work it out, but the average consumer doesn't.

Apple gets away because they have a very limited number of models. And I'm still not sure if Apple backup will work from say, an iPhone 5S to an iPhone 4. Don't have any iDevices to test...

 

[DavidinCT]

Do you really think the user is going to not expect the majority of their apps (which for a long time are going to be WP8.0) to be backed up there, when 8.1's backup says "Most apps' data" will be backed up? You don't think that a person instead is going to be gravely disappointed when they get a new device, and their Temple Run scores or their Final Fantasy game is lost? Or when they have to re-log in to every service that they have an app for on their phone? I know I'm not the norm, but when I buy a new phone and have to spend hours getting it set up, that means that there's a ton of frustration in order.

Agreed, this is a major disappointment, after having a WP7 and 8 devices (3-4 of them now) and very sub-par backup in place, I was really looking forward to this. I was looking for all Applications being backed up, I could understand some banking apps but, everything else would.

I'm a avid gamer, so Xbox live games are kind of big to me, and after losing my game saves a ton of times now, this is major. So older WP 8/7 games won't backup by default ? This os a fai'ure before it's even released for someone like me.

Will WP 8.1 or sky drive show a list of apps that could or will be backed up, so I can plan for dispointment or avoid long term gaming in some apps ?

When I had my WP 7.8 device rooted, I looked over the save files for a bunch of games, most of them are just a small xml/text file, it would take almost nothing to backup 10-20 of these games...

 

[jhoff80]

So I backed up my 1020 and restored it to a 920, and backup is currently as useless as in 8.0 (as expected until developers update their apps).

What was shocking to me though was that not even all of Microsoft's built-in settings carried over. I can't remember now but there were a few I had to go back in and change.

For what it's worth though, I was also (happily, in this case) surprised to see that all of my custom ringtones were backed up.

 

[envio]

I did a backup and restore in WP8.1 (after resetting my phone in order to try and get Cortana - fail). I got back the following:-

• Start Screen customisation
• All e-mail and accounts were restored although I had to re-enter the passwords. There were some additional issues with Google and Facebook accounts needing further authorisation through a web interface.
• Accent colour
• Lockscreen background (except quick status icons)
• Custom Alarms
• Text message history
• Call history
• People Hub filter contacts list
• Linked Inboxes
• Office Hub Recent list
• Phone Hub Custom text replies
• Custom saved ringtones
• Action Centre quick actions
• Notification settings for apps (sounds, vibration etc)
• Kids Corner settings
• Calendar filter account list (not sure here, I do remember making some changes but I'm sure I didn't select them all again)
• Ringtones and sounds preferences
• Previously installed apps list is scheduled to re-download and re-install
• Custom certificates
• FM Radio Favourite stations

Now for the things that specifically did not get backed up that I noticed at the time.

• App data
• Wifi access points
• Bluetooth pairs
• Store settings
• Wallet settings
• DataSense limit settings and previous usage

I'm sure there's more but I've either not noticed or it wasn't relevant to me at the time. I'm mostly happy with what I got back.

 

[jhoff80]

Don't forget that you also lose any apps that are no longer in the Store (so I lost another 4 or 5 Xbox Games). The app data is still the big problem though. People don't want some of their data backed up, they want everything. It's ridiculous that despite years of people asking for this, Microsoft's solution is still bad (as again, any app that doesn't get updated, which almost no current games will be, just as an example). iOS has had COMPLETE device backups since its existence, and Android has a ton of third-party options to fully back up those devices. Backup continues to be an area where Windows Phone is just far, far behind the competition.

 

[Rodrigo Mendes]

IMHO, have absolutely no sense expect old apps have Data Backup if this option don't even exist on first place. Have no idea how this would work any different than works now.

Probaly IOS works fine with that only because Data Backup is available a long time ago. Android is a different history. It's a open OS, so almost anything is possible in any time.

 

[jhoff80]

IMHO, have absolutely no sense expect old apps have Data Backup if this option don't even exist on first place. Have no idea how this would work any different than works now.

Probaly IOS works fine with that only because Data Backup is available a long time ago. Android is a different history. It's a open OS, so almost anything is possible in any time.

The OS knows where each app stores its data (in Isolated Storage). No reason it couldn't copy those files.

 

[realwarder]

The OS knows where each app stores its data (in Isolated Storage). No reason it couldn't copy those files.

Yep. Backup should backup IsolatedStorage and restore when required. Even a daily backup would be massively helpful, along with a "Backup Now" option in case you know you want a fresh copy prior to phone upgrade.

I thought WP8.1 was going to backup app settings until I read your informative post [thanks]... not the improvement the platform needed.

 

[Xpider_MX]

Yep. Backup should backup IsolatedStorage and restore when required. Even a daily backup would be massively helpful, along with a "Backup Now" option in case you know you want a fresh copy prior to phone upgrade.

I thought WP8.1 was going to backup app settings until I read your informative post [thanks]... not the improvement the platform needed.

What if the app is updated and the backup data is not working?
How the app can know that the data is restores? when you install an app, the app re-create a new isolated storage.

I guess you don't know how the apps works. It is not an Xbox 360.

The good news are that WP8.1 apps will have the options for cloud backup.