I have a Nokia Lumia 1020 AMA

[vlad0]

^.. that doesn't look right.. are you sure that the 5mpix is at 100% ?

 

[bygbyron3]

are you joking or what?

http://s18.postimg.org/vhbolqftl/1020.jpg

it's clear that "supersampling" doesn't work as advertised...

That picture is 34 MP not 38 MP. I don't know how you zoomed into the hand in the 5 MP picture, but that's a lossy zoomed picture not from the 34 MP version so why would it be super-sampled? Take the 34 MP and reframe the hand!

Ridiculous comparison.

 

[biboyflip]

You really can't compensate for the smaller sensor area with software that much.. considering how mature the 808's jpeg processing is, its pretty much maxing out what the Toshiba sensor can do.. so.. even if they get to that point with the 1020 in terms of processing, it will always be noisier overall.

And in terms of sharpness.. if you pump up the sharpness on the 808 to the max its pretty good, I doubt that the 1020 will be that much sharper.

How accurate do you think that 25% number is ? I am yet to see a high end camera use a BSI sensor and produce a decent image.. if they were 25% more sensitive to light, don't you think that we would've see at least one DSLR with a BSI sensor until now..

At this point, its just a way for the OEMs to be able to use the same small BSI sensor but pack more pixels into them so the consumer can be led to believe that they are buying a better camera. It also sounds good in the marketing materials..

Just like in the past, Nokia can always provide an update to fine-tune the overall result. Be it a bump or decrease in saturation, NR, sharpening etc or whichever they see appropriate to improve the result via firmware/sw update. If the response of initial field test (meaning reviewers and early users) are unfavorable, it is almost guaranteed that they will immediately provide the sw tweak. .

As for the sensor FSI of 808 vs smaller BSI of 1020. It is not just for marketing materials. BSI is the new technology in camera sensor and has been in development for more than 3 years now. That's the reason why you don't see DSLRs with BSI, yet.. The 25% advantage on light sensitivity of BSI I mentioned is actually a conservative value. Toshiba even claims that it can max upto 40% increase compared to FSI with similar sensor size.


A short summary, FSI needs larger pixel pitch like 1.4 micron to give space for "metal wirings" between lense and photodiode sensors, whereas BSI do not have these wirings in between since they are placed at the "back" of the assembly stack (hidden) and therefore no light obstruction. In essence, FSI is less "efficient" than BSI based on light capture per area because of the metal wirings. Since BSI sensors do not have this wiring layer, the pixel area can now be optimized to a much smaller size like 1.12 micron, still with the same light sensitivity.


Again this is not a gimik, it is a mature technology that is widely used. Lumia 92X series all have BSI sensors. Even the Sony RX100 II, which is very well known for its amazing quality, is boasting the Exmor R BSI technology, a 40% improvement from its earlier version RX100 with FSI in terms of light capture sensitivity. This new BSI sensor is rumored to be the same 20MP sensor of the anticipated rival of 808, the Sony Honami (Android).


And from Toshiba themselves, makers of 808 and L1020 sensors, here is what they have to say about their BSI development.

"BSI brings new levels of responsiveness to CMOS imaging. Lenses are deployed on the rear of the sensor on the silicon substrate, not on the front, where wiring limits light absorption. This positioning boosts light sensitivity and absorption by 40% compared to existing Toshiba products, and allows formation of finer image pixels."

Toshiba : Press Release 27 Oct, 2009

Therefore comparing sensors with different type of technology based on size alone is rather pointless.
But it is very possible that the smaller sensor of 1020 with BSI has the same light capturing sensitivity compared to a much larger sensor of 808 but with FSI.

 

[muderko]

Good piece of info biboyflip, thanks.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[nano321]

Good stuff.. considering the size of the device, and.. it is a smartphone.. the results are pretty incredible.

The jpegs simply look different from the 808's .. that's all

For example, you won't see that kind of edge sharpening from an 808

http://i.imgur.com/mKdXgCc.jpg

True, for one it is BSI on Lumia 1020 vs FSI on 808 and also as mentioned by Juha from Nokia they have fine tuned oversampling on Lumia 1020. Also seems they have boosted color temp a bit on Lumia.

 

[nano321]

are you joking or what?

http://s18.postimg.org/vhbolqftl/1020.jpg

it's clear that "supersampling" doesn't work as advertised...

Oversampling is to reduce noise and retain most of the details. If you gonna compare 38 MP with full details with 5 MP PureView image with no noise and less details, what you reckon you will get. Details will always be more on 34-38 MP sample but noise will be much higher as well. That's how it works on 808 as well. With 808 nobody bothered about 34-38 MP images because Nokia highlighted 5 MP oversampled images. Here all confusion is coming in because Nokia has introduce reframing as an option with Lumia 1020 for which you take full-res images.

But do remember, oversampled images for Lumia 1020 will have much better details than any other smartphone on market barring one and only one 808 in daylight. In case of Low-light images even 808 doesn't come closer to Lumia 1020. Read what GSMArena has to say about it,

As far as image quality is concerned, the Nokia Lumia 1020 is really in a class of its own. None of the other high-end smartphones can come even close to the amount of resolved detail that the huge pixel-dense sensor and the 6-element ZEISS lens deliver. The dynamic range is also much higher than any other flagship can offer.

Just like the still images, the videos produced by the Lumia 1020 are beyond the capabilities of any other smartphone on the market. The detail levels are top notch, the colors are extremely pleasing and the dynamic range simply cannot be achieved with a smaller sensor.

Nokia Lumia 1020 preview: Take two - GSMArena.com

 

[ClixT]

Is it just me or the OIS doesn't work at all on pavvento's videos?

 

[nano321]

I believe this is not a prototype unit, it is just that people still do not want to be disappointed!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Oh really!! Dissapointed with what? Even the samples posted with wrong settings have so much details and sharper than anything out there. People confuse noise on unprocessed 34 MP images with 5 MP noise-free oversampled images. Also noise in Lumia 1020 image is less than those in 808 images with similar level of details. So, artificial "dissapointment" doesn't come natural.......

 

[pavvento]

Is it just me or the OIS doesn't work at all on pavvento's videos?

I was thinking the same thing when I was recording, and in fact tried to add a little hand shake to see how it would respond. I was using the video camera through the Pro app, not sure if that makes a difference.

 

[nano321]

What is supposed to happen and what actually happens are very different, but if you want to think this is a prototype please continue to do so. For everyone else, this came out of an AT&T Lumia 1020 box that was with other 1020 phones. Sorry I didn't take pictures of the box!

So, are you saying, AT&T stores are already selling the devices. Many of my frds will be pleased with the news. Can you tell me the location of store form where you got one?

 

[muderko]

Oh really!! Dissapointed with what? Even the samples posted with wrong settings have so much details and sharper than anything out there. People confuse noise on unprocessed 34 MP images with 5 MP noise-free oversampled images. Also noise in Lumia 1020 image is less than those in 808 images with similar level of details. So, artificial "dissapointment" doesn't come natural.......

Disappointed that the advantage is not easy to be noticed by average users, it has to be thoroughly analyzed and argued by advanced users in order to be accounted!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ClixT]

I was thinking the same thing when I was recording, and in fact tried to add a little hand shake to see how it would respond. I was using the video camera through the Pro app, not sure if that makes a difference.

Hmmm. Make a few video test with your iphone, lumia 920, and 1020.

 

[vlad0]

Just like in the past, Nokia can always provide an update to fine-tune the overall result. Be it a bump or decrease in saturation, NR, sharpening etc or whichever they see appropriate to improve the result via firmware/sw update. If the response of initial field test (meaning reviewers and early users) are unfavorable, it is almost guaranteed that they will immediately provide the sw tweak. ..

They might alter the processing, but still.. the sensor size is fixed, there is only that much you can extract from it. It all depends on how far they are from that point... there might be more in there, we will have to wait and see.

. BSI is the new technology in camera sensor and has been in development for more than 3 years now. That's the reason why you don't see DSLRs with BSI, yet.. The 25% advantage on light sensitivity of BSI I mentioned is actually a conservative value. Toshiba even claims that it can max upto 40% increase compared to FSI with similar sensor size. .

3 years should be long enough for the big boys to implement it in their DSLR range, but no one has done it yet. It might due to cost, or any other number of reasons, but it hasn't happened yet. I just haven't seen any images produced by an BSI sensor that can rival FSI yet.. I am not saying it won't happen, but there are not there yet. And the 1020 is a perfect example for that, it shows that a smaller BSI sensor can't quite compensate for a bigger FSI one. Perhaps if they are the same size it would be different.

A short summary, FSI needs larger pixel pitch like 1.4 micron to give space for "metal wirings" between lense and photodiode sensors, whereas BSI do not have these wirings in between since they are placed at the "back" of the assembly stack (hidden) and therefore no light obstruction. In essence, FSI is less "efficient" than BSI based on light capture per area because of the metal wirings. Since BSI sensors do not have this wiring layer, the pixel area can now be optimized to a much smaller size like 1.12 micron, still with the same light sensitivity..

Yes, that is the whole point.. smaller sensor, but yet more pixels (good for marketing), and the loses in IQ are not that significant. Case in point.. 1020 vs 808.

Theoretically they could have used the same size sensor as the one in the 808, but if was BSI it could've been ~53Mpix @ 1.12 microns

This new BSI sensor is rumored to be the same 20MP sensor of the anticipated rival of 808, the Sony Honami (Android). .

They can't fit that in the Honami.. it will be a much smaller sensor, smaller than the 1020.

As far as the rx100 II, yes I've looked at the images on dpreview and they do look good, but I don't think they are any better than it's FSI predecessor.

By the way Sony are also claiming 40% improvement sensitivity in low light for the rx100 II

Here is a pretty interesting interview with a tech guy from Sony.. he basically says that the sensor in the rx100 II will be the largest BSI sensor they would make due diminishing technical advantage over the larger FSI ones.

@21:00

http://youtu.be/ilhHiQgHZzg?t=21m

 

[nano321]

Disappointed that the advantage is not easy to be noticed by average users, it has to be thoroughly analyzed and argued by advanced users in order to be accounted!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I remember a CNET editor trashing 808 PureView in comparison to iPhone 5 when it came out . Gizmodo saying that 41 MP is just marketing... It certainly took time for 808's goodness to reach to techies forget about average consumers. But once it gets established then you know, it becomes gold standard .

 

[vlad0]

I remember a CNET editor trashing 808 PureView in comparison to iPhone 5 when it came out . Gizmodo saying that 41 MP is just marketing... It certainly took time for 808's goodness to reach to techies forget about average consumers. But once it gets established then you know, it becomes gold standard .

That was good times... they had no idea what they were talking about it was very amusing

 

[Michael Spencer]

That was good times... they had no idea what they were talking about it was very amusing

Interesting times indeed.

Nokia was trying their best not to sell the 808 (like N900, and N9) - yet still sold nearly 0.5 million units? It's actually quite impressive. :winktongue:

 

[pavvento]

I was able to take some dark photos but am having problems uploading them now that I'm home. I'll upload in the morning if I can figure out how to get my Surface to play nicely with Flickr. Here is a brief review I wrote up if you're interested: Nokia Lumia 1020 Review | pavvento

 

[muderko]

Nice review pavvento!

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[nano321]

I was able to take some dark photos but am having problems uploading them now that I'm home. I'll upload in the morning if I can figure out how to get my Surface to play nicely with Flickr. Here is a brief review I wrote up if you're interested: Nokia Lumia 1020 Review | pavvento

I am envious of you now!! Scratching to have a Lumia 1020.... Anyways, very nice work .

 

[pavvento]

I just added some comparison shots from a dark room as well as shots of the device. If you click on the photo the details section tells you whether it is an iPhone 5, 920, or 1020 and the condition. Tomorrow I'll try and have some real low light photos for you!