IE 10 Drop Down Menu Problem

[a5cent]

The short term answer for us is still a WebKit browser alternative for Windows Phone, unless you want to wait 2-3 years to be able to view the non-mobile versions of every single website and be able to know with confidence you can operate almost any drop down menu on a site.

You're still confused about what your preferred solution would actually incur.

Your short term solution would remove the last thing that has any chance of motivating developers to ensure their websites are standards compliant. Your short term solution would further reduce the number of non-WebKit based browsers on the mobile web, further postponing the point at which developers decide to start testing their mobile sites with something other than just a WebKit browser (IE, Firefox, Opera or any other non-WebKit based browser will do). The chance that this point in time is postponed indefinitely is rather large, effectively putting Google (and to a far lesser degree Apple) in charge of web standards.

The only answer that protects the mobile web from falling into the jurisdiction of a single company is to restrict WP to only using IE, while jumping all over the websites that can't develop standards compliant web pages... like Walmart (call them, write them, ridicule them on their forums). This is just a further example of the quick and easy path not being the better one.

 

[socialcarpet]

I don't really care about the future of IE or being a part of some browser crusade. The truth is we can all send angry emails to web developers until our fingers fall off. It won't make a damn bit of difference until mobile IE makes up a significant percentage of the visitors to these sites, say 30% or more and even the most optimistic but REALISTIC view doesn't have that happening for years.

I get what you are saying, in terms of, if MS gives in and people use alternative browsers then web devs will really never have any reason to change... But do I want to sit here with a cocked up browsing experience praying that WP and RT get enough market share to motivate developers to make the needed changes.

I don't care how they go about it, if it's WebKit or Opera or what, but I want an equal browsing experience to someone on an iPad or iPhone and I don't want to wait 3 years for a market share miracle to make it a reality. I'd be willing to bet most of the rest of us don't either.

Microsoft needs to allow non-Trident based browsers on Windows Phone and Windows RT and let nature take it's course.

In my opinion, they are delivering a sub par end-user experience by locking us into IE, not to mention a damn hard-coded Bing button.

I love Windows Phone, but I'm not so much of a zealot that I want to endure a browser that's out of sync with 20% of the internet so Microsoft can try to win the browser wars once again. I'm not so much of a zealot that I am kidding myself into thinking that Windows Phone and RT are going to tip the mobile world on its axis and have iPhone or Android like market share. If that were to happen, it will take years and Microsoft would have to do far more than they are right now.

I just want to have real choices when it comes to browsers. I don't think it's an unreasonable request.

 

[philxor]

I think the chance of a decent browser other than IE on WP8 is somewhere between 0 and .001%. . We might see Opera but not a web kit browser.

It's not just WP8 and RT which are affected. As said it affects normal Windows 8 when touch is being used. The deluge of new touch enabled Windows 8 laptops and desktops dwarf the amount of RT and WP8 devices being sold. Now those devices have mouses which can be used but that defeats the point.

The fix in a touch enabled world is to eliminate mouse over actions on tablet and mobile devices which do not have mouses... Like has been said webkit fakes it and treats your finger as a pointer which hasn't clicked yet. MS has created some new standards based ways to handle the events but it does require redesign work. Also too many websites use Webkit proprietary extensions for mobile sites.

 

[wingcutter]

Just getting back to this conversation.... Some good points are being made here. MS needs to deliver today on user experience. I shouldn't have to put down my shiny new 920 and dust off and fire up my old iPhone 3g so I can view web pages with simplistic drop down menus that have been around for over a decade. Its a freaking joke.

Its all good for WalMart to keep up with browser compatibility, but do we know how many small business websites will never address the issue?


Too many.

 

[Jastow]

Not sure where you guys rank Metro Browser, but the drop down menus worked for me on WalMart.com. You touch and hold the menu for .5 sec, then the drop down appears which allows you select the subcategory. Only issue is that if you zoomed in enough to not see the whole menu when it pops up, trying to scroll around will cause the submenu to go away. No excuse, IE should do this.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

 

[a5cent]

MS needs to deliver today on user experience. I shouldn't have to put down my shiny new 920 and dust off and fire up my old iPhone 3g so I can view web pages with simplistic drop down menus that have been around for over a decade. Its a freaking joke.

Yes, it's absolutely is a joke. Microsoft could solve this problem easily, but it would require them to implement features that aren't standards compliant. Luckily, that isn't what Microsoft does these days anymore, as their corporate clients have been pushing them hard towards standards compliance over the last few years. Microsoft's corporate clients rely on IE being standards compliant, as an insurance policy against having to overhaul their intranet applications down the road as browsers shed their non standard features. IE has recently become one of the best browsers with which to test standards compliance.

I get what you are saying, in terms of, if MS gives in and people use alternative browsers then web devs will really never have any reason to change... But do I want to sit here with a cocked up browsing experience praying that WP and RT get enough market share to motivate developers to make the needed changes.

I don't really care about the future of IE or being a part of some browser crusade.

I'm sure you understand my arguments. I never doubted that. We just seem to care about different things.

As far as I can tell, you care neither about browser choice, nor about internet technology standardization continuing its existence as a democratic process. You will gladly sacrifice FireFox, IE, Opera and all other non WebKit based browsers and welcome an internet technology dictatorship in exchange for more browser comforts on WP now (yes, this paragraph is somewhat dramatized for effect).

Either that, or you fail to see how granting WebKit a secure monopoly on the mobile web will lead to that outcome (currently WebKit has an insecure monopoly on the mobile web).

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your view. I understand that most consumers just couldn't be bothered with such issues, nor should they be. Accordingly, I'm not attempting to convert you into a crusader and send you off to march on the heathen lands of WebKit. What I am trying to do is explain Microsoft's side of the story, why they are resisting WebKit based browsers on WP, that they aren't acting entirely without reason and that all consumers may actually have more to benefit from Microsoft's actions in the long run. I'm just trying to raise a little sympathy for Microsoft's really crappy position in all this.

The truth is we can all send angry emails to web developers until our fingers fall off. It won't make a damn bit of difference until mobile IE makes up a significant percentage of the visitors to these sites, say 30% or more

I think you are being far too pessimistic. Ultimately, the point at which companies decide to stop developing WebKit specific mobile websites and become standards compliant will differ from one company to the next, but I'm certain that point is far below 30%. If 5% of my customers can't place orders on my website, and those lost orders cost more than the price of a developer to fix my website, I think the choice is obvious. Consider also that we aren't talking about huge overhauls! These are tiny little things that need adjusting here and there. Even large websites shouldn't require more than a couple days work. Companies that derive no direct value from their mobile website operations will likely be harder to get on board though. I agree with you on that one.

 

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Companies that derive no direct value from their mobile website operations will likely be harder to get on board though. I agree with you on that one.

Boycott them. Boycott the absolute heck of them and make it clear that they either make themselves IE10 compatible or you WILL boycott them until they are driven out of business. If they see their hits falling substantially because of this, then they'll have to get on board too. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[wingcutter]

Good point a5cent. Many do not understand the technical reasons,behind these decisions, myself included. I would think however that they could still figure out a way to handle basic drop down menus from the past without compromising where they are heading.

 

[philxor]

If you want an example of a well designed touch website go to ebay.com or tthey touch.facebook.com website.

It will be interesting to see if MS hacks something into IE10 or if the take a hard line. There are so many broken websites right now it might be hard to just ignore.

 

[a5cent]

I would think however that they could still figure out a way to handle basic drop down menus from the past without compromising where they are heading.

Hey wingcutter

Your assumption is absolutely reasonable, but unfortunately not as simple as you imagine it to be. The problem has nothing to do with "basic drop down menus from the past". It's about how certain features are currently implemented in WebKit today, with current technology, and how WebKit based browsers differ from everyone else's.

At the top of last year, Microsoft (and other browser developers) attempted to do exactly what you think they should (fix drop down menu problems and others on the mobile web). Unfortunately, the only viable approach to doing so is a bad one. Luckily, the entire web developer community (or at least the sophisticated portion of that community) cried out and forced all of them to return to a standards based approach.

In the short term, that is bad for users like yourself, as your experience on the mobile web won't be up to par with WebKit based browsers. However, assuming that non-WebKit based mobile browsers can achieve a reasonable market share within a reasonable time frame, it will be much better for all consumers in the long run.

Here is a blog post where one developer explains the situation.

Here is another developer protesting Microsoft, FireFox and Opera following WebKit's non standards based approach (thousands exist).

Here is a blogpost from Microsoft explaining how to get WebKit specific websites to work well with IE (and in most cases any other standards compliant browser as well). As anyone can tell from the brief description, it isn't rocket science.

On the mobile web, Safari and Chrome (the two WebKit based browsers), are becoming the new IE6. Most people just lack the technical understanding to recognize it.

Back in the day, Netscape had to be wiped out before people understood what Microsoft was doing. If consumers and regulatory agencies aren't any smarter now than they were then, more browsers will need to disappear before people understand what is going on.

 

[FinancialP]

My first post and I just joined so let me preface this, I have been reading these forums for over a year and half. Titan user (Dotcompt ROM from when he was on XDA). Looking for a deal on a 8X.

I'm at my breaking point with these crazy complaints and even crazier answers. It's one thing to complain, that's fine, but to throw these weird and off the wall answers is another.

To the topic at hand, all of you are horribly WRONG. This has absolutely nothing to do with freaking Webkit. Android works the same but it sidesteps it sometimes.

In lamest terms, Android and Windows Supports Mice. IOS doesn't so the OS is coded to handle certain objects in websites a certain way.

Try it out. Plug a mouse into your surface and it will work as its supposed to. Plug a mouse into an android phone/tablet(mouse support is built into both) and it works.

So stop blaming web developers and MS please.


And disregard the signature , I use this because Board Express is one of the worst apps I've ever used.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ixolite]

Gah, just experienced the problem myself. And from a professional standpoint as well As a full time web developer I have to say that this is a serious issue that MS has to fix - it is how the mouse over events are handled with touch input that is the problem. With all other browsers, when using touch input single tap activates a mouse hover event and keeps it in that state. Then you can tap second time to interact with the hover, whatever it does. On IE10 there is no way to interact with hover events using touch interface and that is solely the browser where the problem lies, not the websites.

 

[anthonyng]

Gah, just experienced the problem myself. And from a professional standpoint as well As a full time web developer I have to say that this is a serious issue that MS has to fix - it is how the mouse over events are handled with touch input that is the problem. With all other browsers, when using touch input single tap activates a mouse hover event and keeps it in that state. Then you can tap second time to interact with the hover, whatever it does. On IE10 there is no way to interact with hover events using touch interface and that is solely the browser where the problem lies, not the websites.

that's a control on the website side of things no? Like I use a add on on my drupal site for drop down menus (superfish) and there's a field where I specify the behaviour for certain browsers, namely mobile browsers. This is so that when I touch a menu, instead of activating it right away, it does the hover so the menu can expand.

 

[Exoteric]

Its all good for WalMart to keep up with browser compatibility, but do we know how many small business websites will never address the issue?
Too many.

Absolutely correct. Big websites that are targeting as broad an audience as possible, such as walmart.com, may eventually fix their websites, but other will never bother.
100's of thousands of more specialized websites will not be changing any time soon. I encounter websites like this almost every day on Surface, and have to resort to using a mouse.
It is a chicken and egg situation for Microsoft: if their touch browser doesn't handle websites like this, it will never become broadly adopted, and if it doesn't get adopted broadly enough, it will not have enough clout to force websites to change.
Microsoft should use their Bing back-end to measure how big this problem really is, and then figure out some way to make these drop-down menus just work.
People will just walk away from Microsoft solutions, if they don't work.

 

[GreyTreed]

Oh my gosh I have this EXACT Same problem all the time n it is unbelievably frustrating... I have the Lumia 920 as well, its honestly one of the two or three deal breakers (no flash alternative and ridiculous lack of apps) for me recommending this phone to people thats how problematic its been!

 

[D0gsballs]

Gary, you're a pillock.

Adobe don't support Flahs anymore. It's not on iOS and it's no longer on Android. So why should MS support a now defunct piece of software?

And a ridiculous lack of apps? The app number is a lazy tool used to try and discredit WP.

 

[Ubbo Nieuwland]

You build a site. You test it on all browsers. Its working fine. At Microsoft there is a team developing Windows 8 and IE 10. After releasing it all the problems ocure. So who has to test its working propper? Microsoft! That is why website builders hate IE. We have to solve the problems generated by Microsoft and we have to pay the bill!

 

[D0gsballs]

Ubbo, from what I understand IE is actually working correctly but it's not user friendly what is occuring.

 

[Cloud Denton]

I'm having this problem too, I can't find any way around. I've literally had to boot up the old desktop and find the URL of the page I need to get to and type in the WP browser then bookmark it. Good lord.

 

[Cloud Denton]

Ubbo, from what I understand IE is actually working correctly but it's not user friendly what is occuring.

It's more than "not user friendly" it's making certain pages impossible to get to without finding the URL out on another device first.