Is it good time for buying 'W10 S' systems?

[Drael646464]

This is Win10S thread, not sure why people are arguing about SL. Yes, they showcased it to demonstrate that Win10S can run on a premium laptop, not just the $189 crap that schools use. The question is, will Win10S be on the next SP or SB? One thing i noticed with SL though, is that it wakes from standby really fast. I hope someone will test it with W10S v W10Pro on the same machine, and compare boot times, battery standby life, etc.

We've been told not to expect a SP. They said specifically something like "the hardware in sp4 is good for years to come, and we don't want to make another unless we are adding something new to it".

They might make a sb2, if they can add to it. But I expect the next surface device of this kind will be windows on arm, late this year. A regular 'surface', not pro, running on the latest QUALCOMM chip, with a focus on its LTE/telephony, gps etc. It might even be a little smaller, given the focus on mobility.

The next surface device won't be windows s. However we are getting something new announced this may, from the surface team. I expect its a HoloLens ready for the consumer public. Or a mixed reality device.

The demo speech said of windows s "15 seconds to login and open an app on windows s, 40 seconds for pro." They also said fast to wake.

I suspect these are features of S, not the surface laptop. Thats certainly the impression MS gave. But of course, everyone being fixated on the store element, no one has timed the thing yet, or run windows store based benchmarks (antutu is on there I am pretty sure).

 

[SL2]

One thing i noticed with SL though, is that it wakes from standby really fast.

That usually happens instantly on modern computers.

 

[Drael646464]

That usually happens instantly on modern computers.

I guess it depends on whether he meant "sleep" or "hibernate". Sleep resumes fast because it doesn't actually turn off, it just suspends the software. Hibernate still takes time, although its faster than it used to be.

Seriously though, someone needs to test this. Get a windows s, and a pro device, and power them up from hibernation. Power them up cold, and autologin. Time it. Try some app loading times as well.

I actually would like to see an antutu score for windows s versus pro too. If they have cut back on services or similar, it might impact gaming or browsing speeds.

I guess we are waiting for someone to actually fully hands-on this stuff...

 

[tgp]

Seriously though, someone needs to test this. Get a windows s, and a pro device, and power them up from hibernation. Power them up cold, and autologin. Time it. Try some app loading times as well.

That would be interesting.

Our PC Sales & Repair department at work has been selling SSD retrofits for a couple years now, since SSD drives became low cost enough to be viable. They take a normal PC, replace the hard drive with an SSD, and install Windows fresh, without OEM bloat. Cold to logged in is usually 10 seconds for the fastest machines (that we sell anyway), and 15 for the slowest.

The speed varies a bit, depending on the machines' other specs, such as CPU and RAM, but it is very quick. It was even faster with Windows 8/8.1. Windows 10 is slower, more like Windows 7.

 

[SL2]

I guess it depends on whether he meant "sleep" or "hibernate". Sleep resumes fast because it doesn't actually turn off, it just suspends the software. Hibernate still takes time, although its faster than it used to be.

I dunno, I've never hard anyone say standby when they mean hibernate.

Seriously though, someone needs to test this. Get a windows s, and a pro device, and power them up from hibernation. Power them up cold, and autologin. Time it. Try some app loading times as well.

I fail to see why this is interesting, unless you're prepared to run 10 S just for the shorter load times.

I know just as little about 10 S as most other people, but I don't expect it to be much different from the regular version in terms of load speed. The only reason is that if you upgrade to Pro, will it suddenly become slower? I find that hard to believe.

"I upgraded my Surface Laptop to 10 Pro and now it's slower, thanks Microsoft!" - I think they want to avoid that kind of cuwstomer reviews..

It may be snappier than some other laptops, but the reason is more likely that it's an all MS product rather that it's running 10S, better optimized drivers for instance. Purely speculating.

 

[Drael646464]

I dunno, I've never hard anyone say standby when they mean hibernate.

I'm not sure if most people would know the difference. Screen goes off when you close the hood, comes back on when you open it. Closest analogy most people would know, is the TV in standby. Neither is actually "standby" though, although we might consider sleep closer technically.

I fail to see why this is interesting, unless you're prepared to run 10 S just for the shorter load times.

I think that could be an attractive proposition, if it runs faster, for some. It's certainly not trivial in general, people do like fast performing devices.

I know just as little about 10 S as most other people, but I don't expect it to be much different from the regular version in terms of load speed. The only reason is that if you upgrade to Pro, will it suddenly become slower? I find that hard to believe.

Well that's what Microsoft claimed in their talks, and its also what leaks showed they were targeting for students to compete with chromeOS (boot times, login times, app loading times and so on). Maybe they are just making it all up, or the differences are trivial, but I'd be quite surprised if there were no mechanics behind the claims.

"I upgraded my Surface Laptop to 10 Pro and now it's slower, thanks Microsoft!" - think they want to avoid that kind of cuwstomer reviews..

So to avoid those customer reviews, they would have engineered windows s, to be slower than chromeOS, its main intended competitor rather than competitive with cloud based computing?

If you would, as you admitted indirectly above, never install windows s for speed gains - then why doesn't the street run the other way, that people would be happy to sacrifice the speed gains for more power/freedom?

I know windows S, is not going to appeal to powerusers or traditional MS fans. It doesn't appeal to me!

But I don't think its trivial _for the application_, which is schools, libraries, certain business and public institutions, students running core software and so on. They will certainly want secure, easy/quick to administer systems with snappy response times (especially if they stay snappy and don't need upgrading for long periods, I know how cheap they can be!)

My only point was really, MS claims its faster (to compete with chromeOS and target students "requests"), so they didn't simply flick a software switch to turn off outside apps. There must be more to it than this, logically.

My suspicion is that it runs much less services, or is slimmed down under the hood. Which probably reduces some of its other capabilities as a trade off.

Whether that's substaintial or noteworthy (for the application), the speed differences, remains to be tested.

I still won't be getting an s machine. But I'd probably happily recommend one to people with very simple computing needs (provided the OS is good for what its claimed to be good at).

 

[SL2]

I think that could be an attractive proposition, if it runs faster, for some. It's certainly not trivial in general, people do like fast performing devices.

Hence my "unless".

So to avoid those customer reviews, they would have engineered windows s, to be slower than chromeOS, its main intended competitor rather than competitive with cloud based computing?

You find it impossible that it could be the other way around? That it's actually the Surface Laptop that runs faster than most other laptops, regardless of W10 version?

My only point was really, MS claims its faster (to compete with chromeOS and target students "requests"), so they didn't simply flick a software switch to turn off outside apps. There must be more to it than this, logically.

I'm think it's the hardware, but this only explains why MS own laptop may be faster, not the models coming from other brands I guess.

 

[SL2]

I'm not sure if most people would know the difference.

We're still speculating about what one specific forum member meant, and I don't even know which video he was referring to.

 

[Drael646464]

Hence my "unless".

You find it impossible that it could be the other way around? That it's actually the Surface Laptop that runs faster than most other laptops, regardless of W10 version?

I'm think it's the hardware, but this only explains why MS own laptop may be faster, not the models coming from other brands I guess.

What MS specifically said in their demo was "15 seconds to boot, login, and load an app in windows s, versus 40 seconds in windows pro".

If you look back at the leaks regarding the development of windows s, you'll see they actually set login, app loading, boot times as goals to reach in order to match chromeOS with the development of windows s. There's a little table where they show the performance variables of ChromeOS, and then the targets for windows s.

Based on everything I have heard, it makes perfect logical sense that windows s would be faster. Until I see benchmarking I won't know for sure, but I have no real reason to doubt, that its at least a bit faster, and they have attempted to optimise the platform in other ways besides merely locking in to the store.

Time of course, will tell.

 

[SL2]

What MS specifically said in their demo was "15 seconds to boot, login, and load an app in windows s, versus 40 seconds in windows pro".

That's more than I knew. My whole discussion started with whether resume from standby was faster or not, based on someones impresson that it was.

In the long run I hope MS makes the other versions of W10 boot faster as well, I guess some components aren't really optimized for that. Disabling some services never made much difference for me, it takes more effort to speed up the boot, obviously.

 

[Drael646464]

That's more than I knew. My whole discussion started with whether resume from standby was faster or not, based on someones impresson that it was.

In the long run I hope MS makes the other versions of W10 boot faster as well, I guess some components aren't really optimized for that. Disabling some services never made much difference for me, it takes more effort to speed up the boot, obviously.

Well I guess if those optimisations can be brought to pro, they would definitely be great to see! I use hibernate on a tablet all the time.

 

[Drael646464]

Good news for windows s and the store, from build - already iTunes and Spotify are coming to UWP, because of windows s. There's a ripple out there, that companies DO NOT want to lose their younger customers. Hopefully we'll get more and more of these announcements over time.

 

[SL2]

Good news for windows s and the store, from build - already iTunes and Spotify are coming to UWP, because of windows s.

That's good, but I wonder if we'll see more UWP apps that doesn't support Mobile, it's really annoying, and it makes the apps quite non-universal.

I'm looking forward to the Spotify app, I've had their stupid XP-style tray icon staring at me for 9 years now..

 

[Drael646464]

That's good, but I wonder if we'll see more UWP apps that doesn't support Mobile, it's really annoying, and it makes the apps quite non-universal.

I'm looking forward to the Spotify app, I've had their stupid XP-style tray icon staring at me for 9 years now..

Well, once they are centennial bridged, they can gradually convert to true UWP. It's sort of like a "foot in the door".

And UWP doesn't just cover phones but also tablets, and xbox and mixed reality (and those users like myself that prefer them on desktop for their lightweightness and scalability). I think that's where windows on arm comes in - hopefully MS will release a nice mini surface with telephony, of some kind.

But that IS the next issue. I think we'll see a lot of people start to make that first step now, but the question remains - when do they start making the next ones and increasing the compatible device list?

Which is going to depend on MS creating more users in those afformentioned categories (I'm sure mixed reality will grow on its own, especially at the pricepoint and with project scorpio - and mobile apps _might_ find their audience with arm).

I guess this is like "phase one", lol. Kinda falls back on MSFT in a way, to pave/lead the markets from here, to make it attractive to support more devices.

 

[SL2]

Well, once they are centennial bridged, they can gradually convert to true UWP. It's sort of like a "foot in the door".

Still no guarantee that it will support Mobile tho.

And UWP doesn't just cover phones but also tablets, and xbox and mixed reality (and those users like myself that prefer them on desktop for their lightweightness and scalability).

That's not my point. Phones are the only ones that use Windows 10 Mobile, and that's why I mentioned it, Mobile seems to get left out even with UWP.

<99 % of all W10 tablets use one of the desktop versions, which makes the app situation much better since desktop W10 still gets more and more users.

 

[Drael646464]

Still no guarantee that it will support Mobile tho.


That's not my point. Phones are the only ones that use Windows 10 Mobile, and that's why I mentioned it, Mobile seems to get left out even with UWP.

<99 % of all W10 tablets use one of the desktop versions, which makes the app situation much better since desktop W10 still gets more and more users.

What you say is true.

The reason why I bring up tablets however is because of windows on arm. Yes, its a full desktop version, but ALOT of the reason mobile gets jilted, isn't just that people don't design fully universal apps (because people do code these apps as well), but rather because the desktop FF, and wifi tablet is more common. When loads of cheap ARM devices flood the market, there will be monetary incentive to code "mobility": banking apps, gps based databasing apps, chat apps. The sort of stuff windows 10 mobile is light on.

There is little incentive to write these as win32 centennial bridge apps, when the desktop has less need for them (and those things can be done in a browser often).

The mobility, anyways connected LTE, GPS, telephony put a different set of variables in play than the mostly wifi only windows tablet and notebook market, for developers.

The other thing, that, fingers crossed, helps this along is the new xamarin codebase, which creates identical UI's across android, iOS and windows. Making it easier to re-use code, and develop an app for all three platforms.

There seems also little point in coding such an app, on iOS, Android and then creating a whole new UI for Windows desktop when only 50 percent of desktop users seem to go into the store, let alone actively collect apps (I do, but that's not how everyone thinks yet). It would make more sense to code such an app, using xamarin 2.0 for ios, android and windows, and use basically the same UI, with a few design based tweaks. If for example lyft wanted to come to windows - why would they make a special tablet UI for windows when they can just re-use the android one?

They would only bother scaling it for different windows machines, from the android/ios base, if there was enough users using it. And if some kind of criticial mass occurred there, it would surely help mobile apps along by proxy, even if there were some misses.

All and all, this does seem to steer people slowly toward not just centennial bridge but also full UWP with mobility focus. But whether this "starts the fire" so to speak very much remains to be seen.

And we can hardly look behind the curtains of all of MS, Google, Amazon, Samsung, and Apples plans...(and they all have plans, tech is a little like game of thrones lol)

Time will tell.

 

[SL2]

Yes, its a full desktop version, but ALOT of the reason mobile gets jilted, isn't just that people don't design fully universal apps (because people do code these apps as well), but rather because the desktop FF, and wifi tablet is more common.

That's what I implied in my last sentence.

When loads of cheap ARM devices flood the market...

I doubt that will happen with phones. It all depends on how you define flood.
Even if Windows phones jumps up to a whopping 7 % market share, which would be crazy, it still won't change the app situation much.

 

[Drael646464]

That's what I implied in my last sentence.

I doubt that will happen with phones. It all depends on how you define flood.
Even if Windows phones jumps up to a whopping 7 % market share, which would be crazy, it still won't change the app situation much.

No no, by "windows on arm devices flood the market" I mean tablets and notebooks, as MS has stated, not phones as everyone on windows central seem to have manufactured out of their nether regions.

Windows tablets are one of the few growth areas in tablets (that and budget). They are the fastest growing area, commercially, whilst Samsung and apple are shrinking. By creating cheaper devices, with arm, they will position themselves in both the growth areas in tablets.

Notebooks are one of two remaining growth areas within "PCs". That and gaming rigs.

The windows on arm devices will be tablets and notebooks, with ARM chips, and thus LTE, SMS, telephony, GPS etc.

Because they are both areas where windows is strong and has momentum, they can easily be predicted to grow in marketshare. With the release of ARM, everyone from mainstream manufacturers like HP, to Chinese undercuters like chuwi, will pretty much obviously jump on the bandwagon.

After release and a "market leader" surface product (I'm expecting either a surface mini, or just "surface" with pen and BT earpiece/mic), one can basically expect numerous model offerings from other OEMS. Which is what I meant by 'flood'. I expect the offerings will be a lot more prolific than with 's', especially given all the hardware is very widely used, and the OS already popular.

When that happens, there will be reasonable motive to code "mobile specific" UWP apps, rather than non-mobile specific UWPs or centennial bridge apps. How deep that, and windows s, and xamarin 2, can go to drawing in developers to UWP proper over the following years, and what the competitors do in that timeframe remains to be seen.

But it seems theoretically sound to me at this time, as a strategy. It would be kind of cool if MS could release such a device this month, given there's a little momentum from "s" already, but its not till the end of the year according to announcements before we see the first devices.