Is lack of apps the real WP problem?

[Awhispersecho]

Too many problems and mistakes by MS to count. MS is the biggest problem. Lack of support, lack of vision, lack of commitment, too slow, wasting momentum when you had some. The list goes on and on.

Carriers and press were the other main problem. The tech press rarely said 1 thing good about the platform. They are made up of Android and Iphone users and there was never a chance the would give MS a fair chance.

The carriers however were a huge issue. They would talk people out of buying the phones, they would criticize the platform. I even had 1 guy tell me that MS was about to file bankruptcy and go out of business. People forget that at 1 point Verizon had to pay a penalty to Apple because they didn't mee their quarterly sales quota. The carriers were paid to promote the other platforms and punished when they didn't meet their end of the deals.

 

[slivy58]

To me it's the whole ball-n-wax or "all of the above". I find upon each use(830/650/950), there's a lack of, fluidly, stability, consistency aaand apps. Then I am reminded of the platforms uncertainty along with MSFT's lack of commitment. Combine those facts and who, in their right mind, is going to put a positive spin on the platforms future other than the diehards? And I'm totally not in agreeance that anyone else (carriers, press etc etc) other than MSFT is to blame, you reap what you sow.

As for apps, once wasn't much of an issue for me back when but now it has become dire. Starting to lose count as of late the times we've been left in the lurch due to an app being non-existent, the developer decided to drop support, or the app was literally pulled. Last time I looked the techno field was about advancements yet we seem to be going backwards in many respects, starting to feel like 2012 rather then 2017.

Then there's hardware availability and we're not even talking new, it's been an absolute joke IMO. Going back to 2012 I've found WP to be very selective as to what was available yet could not say the same for the other platforms, can't believe in many respects the same holds true even today.

 

[Neill Baldwin]

The apps I miss are not just for fun and games. 1 has to do with my work and another is my insurance company. Yes, some of this is "just" convienance but if I'm going to ignore phones that have that convienance, I could just get an old flip phone. I just think it's a shame that people just didn't have the exposure to WP for whatever reason, marketing, carrier bias, etc... When my mother in law was going to get her first smart phone I really thought about Windows because the live tiles were big, easy to see, and simple for her to use. On the other hand, features like Continuum and the flawless syncing with my laptop make it good for people that need a little more.

 

[fatclue_98]

The apps I miss are not just for fun and games. 1 has to do with my work and another is my insurance company. Yes, some of this is "just" convienance but if I'm going to ignore phones that have that convienance, I could just get an old flip phone. I just think it's a shame that people just didn't have the exposure to WP for whatever reason, marketing, carrier bias, etc... When my mother in law was going to get her first smart phone I really thought about Windows because the live tiles were big, easy to see, and simple for her to use. On the other hand, features like Continuum and the flawless syncing with my laptop make it good for people that need a little more.

Take away Continuum and it's very hard to make a case for Windows. When WP8.1 was here there were still quite a few apps available. The majors anyway. It's certainly becoming a business oriented OS and maybe that's enough for some. It is for me during working hours but it's a challenge just to pay my GEICO bill since the app was discontinued a couple of years ago and the exodus within the last year alone has been pronounced. It's tough, there's no way to sugarcoat it.

 

[Kot Prada]

I own a Huawei Mate 8 and a 950XL. I have always preferred the Windows Phone OS over Android. I don't know why that is, but for me it just works the way I like an OS to work.

But I stopped using the 950XL about six months back, simply because the apps available on Android (and that I actually use) were not available on WP.

And so it is that I have thrown in my lot with Android - not because of the OS, but because of app availability on the platform. And that's so sad for me, knowing that MS is really at the behest of app developers (or lack thereof).

Is the situation ever likely to change? I really hope so, because every day I wish I could go back to my WP.

Mart

Got my 950 XL a week ago... I have no problems with apps at all.

I have a few small complaints about OS... but nothing about apps or their lack.

 

[missionsparta]

Originally posted by sd4f
It's lack of support in every sense. The issues are much broader than just one thing.

The problem is largely a circular problem. Low user adoption, means low developer support means low user adoption, means ...

MS isn't supporting the platform, I don't blame them, there's no point throwing good money after bad. They are doing the absolute bare minimum to stop it from becoming abandonware. The same can't be said of third parties who have pretty much left.

Everything MS has tried has more or less fallen flat (social media integration, UWP, Continuum, etc.), and frankly now, I don't think it's recoverable, it's just far too late. The other platforms are so mature, and have such a head start, that I don't think MS can offer anything compelling enough to compete.

However, it's not all rosy for android. In spite of its huuuge market share, on android central, read an article how only now will all the android app stores generate more revenue than apple's app store. That's not just google's but all of them, of which there are a few others. Google's one is about 60% of apple's.

This is where apple positioned themselves incredibly well. Premium devices only, targeting premium markets and getting premium customers. Android, on the other hand, gets huge use from people who will never spend a single cent on an app. Right now, positioning windows as a premium platform just can't happen, because it's far away from a premium experience.

If MS wants to compete, it needs to do one thing; generate value for developers. That will get them to support the platform, and in turn help bring users. If it's profitable, they'll make apps. If the apps are there, users will use it. The fundamentals of W10M are good, it's just there's as much incentive for developers to develop as theater actors performing to an empty room.

Yep. It's lack of support on every turn...not just with the app situation. Anytime something needs to be addressed, this ***** CEO just talks in code so know one knows he really has no idea what he is doing. The progression of Windows 10 Mobile has been so sluggish, buggy, and slow compared to what happened with Windows Phone 7 & 8, that you have to wonder what the hell is going on behind the scenes. No one is going to develop apps for a platform that still can't fix the smallest bugs 2 years later. And the whole time the CEO is hiding behind his stack of stock options instead of firing this Dona stooge that is supposably heading this mobile project. If she headed either the iOS or Android development, both Apple and Google would have fired her within months. There use to be people at the top of Microsoft that actually cared more about the longevity of the company and the health of it...not just how much money they can make short term. Now we have Panos Panay busting his *** because he has pride in what he does, and then the rest of these "employees" collecting as much money as they can and most likely already looking as to what company they can suck dry next. The pride in that company is long gone. Sad what they have done to Mr. Gates Empire.

 

[anon(50597)]

Yep. It's lack of support on every turn...not just with the app situation. Anytime something needs to be addressed, this ***** CEO just talks in code so know one knows he really has no idea what he is doing. The progression of Windows 10 Mobile has been so sluggish, buggy, and slow compared to what happened with Windows Phone 7 & 8, that you have to wonder what the hell is going on behind the scenes. No one is going to develop apps for a platform that still can't fix the smallest bugs 2 years later. And the whole time the CEO is hiding behind his stack of stock options instead of firing this Dona stooge that is supposably heading this mobile project. If she headed either the iOS or Android development, both Apple and Google would have fired her within months. There use to be people at the top of Microsoft that actually cared more about the longevity of the company and the health of it...not just how much money they can make short term. Now we have Panos Panay busting his *** because he has pride in what he does, and then the rest of these "employees" collecting as much money as they can and most likely already looking as to what company they can suck dry next. The pride in that company is long gone. Sad what they have done to Mr. Gates Empire.

99% emotions
1% facts

Sent from mTalk on my SP4

 

[fatclue_98]

Yep. It's lack of support on every turn...not just with the app situation. Anytime something needs to be addressed, this ***** CEO just talks in code so know one knows he really has no idea what he is doing. The progression of Windows 10 Mobile has been so sluggish, buggy, and slow compared to what happened with Windows Phone 7 & 8, that you have to wonder what the hell is going on behind the scenes. No one is going to develop apps for a platform that still can't fix the smallest bugs 2 years later. And the whole time the CEO is hiding behind his stack of stock options instead of firing this Dona stooge that is supposably heading this mobile project. If she headed either the iOS or Android development, both Apple and Google would have fired her within months. There use to be people at the top of Microsoft that actually cared more about the longevity of the company and the health of it...not just how much money they can make short term. Now we have Panos Panay busting his *** because he has pride in what he does, and then the rest of these "employees" collecting as much money as they can and most likely already looking as to what company they can suck dry next. The pride in that company is long gone. Sad what they have done to Mr. Gates Empire.

I hope you realize that there are these people called shareholders that are privy to what's really going on. Don't think for one minute they are just sitting back and hoping like we are that things will get better. I'm not talking about people who hold a few shares, I'm talking about large bloc holders who have the Board's ear.

 

[slivy58]

Got my 950 XL a week ago... I have no problems with apps at all.

I have a few small complaints about OS... but nothing about apps or their lack.

Happy to hear it suffices for your needs and that is what counts as a USER. Where the platform does fall flat it’s not sufficient for a broader spectrum of USERS and think many lose focus on this fact. Personally, I find it works for my daily chores but if we want to move beyond that realm utilizing gadgets we have on-hand or other, we are then left hanging. Thankfully Android/iOS are at my disposal filling in those gaps.

Just not so sure WM can survive if the time ever comes where native apps are the only thing holding it together, and do not think Edge will be its saviour as there’s only so much a browser can do adequately or at all.

 

[anon(50597)]

Happy to hear it suffices for your needs and that is what counts as a USER. Where the platform does fall flat it’s not sufficient for a broader spectrum of USERS and think many lose focus on this fact. Personally, I find it works for my daily chores but if we want to move beyond that realm utilizing gadgets we have on-hand or other, we are then left hanging. Thankfully Android/iOS are at my disposal filling in those gaps.

Just not so sure WM can survive if the time ever comes where native apps are the only thing holding it together, and do not think Edge will be its saviour as there’s only so much a browser can do adequately or at all.

Fair point. Question. How broad of a spectrum of users does it need to be successful?
For instance, I'm sure there are plenty of people who find it suffices for their needs. Of course, every company wants to make money. How large of a following do they need? I don't think they're even worrying about matching Apple or Android at this point, but there are successful products who are not #1 in sales.
I have no idea what that number is but I know they have to obtain it as a minimum to continue forward.

Sent from mTalk on my SP4

 

[fatclue_98]

I have no idea what that number is but I know they have to obtain it as a minimum to continue forward.

I guess that depends on what their user base is. Take BlackBerry for example, they smashed Wall Street's estimates this quarter by ditching their handset business and focusing on software for their Enterprise clientele. They were smart enough to identify their base and jettison the unwanted baggage. I'm not advocating this for Microsoft but they are a software company first and foremost. I've stated many times my disdain for having to carry multiple devices but it's appearing more and more that business will be MS's path forward when it comes to mobile. Yes, that will be me carrying 2 phones from 2 supposedly dead platforms. Make that 3 with my Touchpad.

 

[a5cent]

I have no idea what that number is but I know they have to obtain it as a minimum to continue forward.

That's not a question with only one answer.

For MS, W10M is potentially viable with 0 users or 0% market share. In that case, W10M would be about fulfilling a strategic role or maintaining potential in the mobile space. Not sales. Think of it as a product in development that will eventually be relaunched. Like every new product, it too will start at 0% market share.

For large multinational corporations that host global and popular web services (particularly if they don't rely on app sales to earn money), an ecosystem can already be worthwhile with 3% market share. On the other hand, some that might fit into that category (like Google) have a reasonable interest in W10M failing, so it is reasonable for them to resist supporting W10M. They did. Regional differences are also important. WhatsApp was always huge in India, and at one point so was WP. That's why we would always have gotten WhatsApp, even with 0% market share in the US.

For companies that survive off app sales, W10M is a pain in the rear. Even a 10% share of the app's total sales is often too little, as it requires that developers divert money to fund their W10M efforts. Money that most mobile devs would prefer to invest in the more important ecosystems.

In the smartphone world, where selling an app gets you peanuts, you have no choice but to go for volume. The only way there is room for three ecosystems, long term, is if each captures' a roughly equal part of the market (in terms of app sales, not market share). App development for W10M is unreasonable at this point.

I do think W10M can still recover, but not as a phone OS. That ship has sailed. The market share as it currently stands is too small to maintain anything (for anyone but MS). That ship has also sailed.

 

[fatclue_98]

For MS, W10M is potentially viable with 0 users or 0% market share. In that case, W10M would be about fulfilling a strategic role or maintaining potential in the mobile space. Not sales. Think of it as a product in development that will eventually be relaunched. Like every new product, it too will start at 0% market share.

By your reasoning, only a behemoth like MS can afford to keep an entire mobile OS as a placeholder. I like it, it makes sense and would be a solid strategery (I miss George W. Bush's idiotic made-up words).

 

[slivy58]

Fair point. Question. How broad of a spectrum of users does it need to be successful?
For instance, I'm sure there are plenty of people who find it suffices for their needs. Of course, every company wants to make money. How large of a following do they need? I don't think they're even worrying about matching Apple or Android at this point, but there are successful products who are not #1 in sales.
I have no idea what that number is but I know they have to obtain it as a minimum to continue forward.

Sent from mTalk on my SP4

Don't think they need to compete w/Android/iOS either yet at the same time these are Mobile Phones. Being somewhat niche in this field, IMO, is not necessarily a good thing, just look at BB and see where it got them... They were good back in the day but their wavering ways along with the app-gap tainted much of what they stood for, now even though Android is BB's flavour of the day many are staying clear, or at least that's what the numbers seem to indicate.

As for how large the following needs to be? To me it has more to do with the platforms progression in moving forward, and its stability as a whole rather than quantity of users per se, at least in today's world. MSFT's change of directions and retrenchments the past 2+ years have created some nasty scars which MAY be insurmountable. Suppose if it does recover our children or theirs will be happy but does me and many others little good who are invested into it now.

You mention "minimum numbers to continue forward". I'd say those numbers (so far) are adequate in MSFT's eyes to continue forward but some Dev's, not so much. So as is the case, WM may suffice for your needs but now becomes lacking for many others due to the ever broadening app-gap. And personally due to the app-gap broadening, I'm starting to feel like we're back in the 2013/14 days. As it stands now along with my type of usage, we've got less functionality compared to back then making this fact very discouraging, for me anyway.

 

[Awhispersecho]

Late 2014-early 2015 when they had a little momentum and a roughly 3.5% global marketshare, they had the same amount of people using Windows Phones that Apple currently has using Macs. Think about that. Yet that wasn't enough for them to even continue trying a little longer. So here we are, 1 of them is considered an amazing success, the other, an embarassing failure.

Amazing to look at the difference in attitude between 2 companies with roughly the same amount of users on a platform. 1 company embraces it and has kept it going for 20 years with no real growth. The other company started having a little growth and still abandoned it after 2 years. Taking a loss or not doesn't matter. Mobile is the only consumer market that matters now and the only market that dictates how much support developers will give towards your platform and they just threw it and it's users aside.

 

[sd4f]

I sort of wondered about the wind32 support that may come in the future with the surface phone.

So a big part of the problem has been a lack of apps. If they implement win32 support, would that mean 3rd party app sources becomes available?

With no market share, limited apps and everything in decline, the question should be asked, what have they got to lose? I think the time has come for them to basically pull out the big guns and start competing on a different level.

This is where android just went in with everything they had when it was starting out; free OS, 3rd party sources for apps, open source, etc. In many respects, google is still trying to claw back control of it because they went in with a strategy of, nothing to lose, everything to gain.

I'm sure if MS implemented some aspects of that, chiefly the ones which allow people to use the platform how they see fit, this could be rather advantageous.

 

[tgp]

Late 2014-early 2015 when they had a little momentum and a roughly 3.5% global marketshare, they had the same amount of people using Windows Phones that Apple currently has using Macs. Think about that. Yet that wasn't enough for them to even continue trying a little longer. So here we are, 1 of them is considered an amazing success, the other, an embarassing failure.

The actual number isn't important, as far as comparison. Here is what I mean:

I've read on argument on this forum that when quarterly WP sales are reported at 1 million or less, people say, "1 million is a big number. If you say it isn't, give me a million dollars." Well, 1 million is a pitifully tiny number when you're comparing it to Android's 300 million and iPhone's 50 million or whatever the numbers are. When margins are small or nonexistent, you have to sell in vast quantities to remain viable.

Boeing sold 668 airliners in 2016. General Motors sold somewhere around 3 million vehicles in the US; I have no idea what worldwide sales were, but probably several times higher that that. Did General Motors exponentially outperform Boeing? Of course not! To compare, you need to compare their profits, or compare them with their competition.

Apple is very profitable with their Macs. They can survive on a relatively small number. In fact, I would think that Microsoft would have a hard time justifying Windows if PC sales were as low as Mac's, because their margins are probably much lower.

 

[a5cent]

Late 2014-early 2015 when they had a little momentum and a roughly 3.5% global marketshare, they had the same amount of people using Windows Phones that Apple currently has using Macs. Think about that. Yet that wasn't enough for them to even continue trying a little longer. So here we are, 1 of them is considered an amazing success, the other, an embarassing failure.

Apple Mac and WP might have been similarly successful in terms of market penetration, but that's about it. For developers the two ecosystems are very different.

A smartphone app costs, on average, maybe $1.50. Software for a Macintosh will cost at least $60. More on average. There are many more differences, and I have nowhere near enough information to make a valid comparison, but I'd be very surprised if the Mac ecosystem didn't generate a lot more value for developers, despite having a similar market share.

That's all conjecture, but I do think that 3.5% market share can represent different levels of success (and earning potential for developers) in ecosystems as different as these two. At least from a 3rd party developer's point of view.

 

[midnightfrolic]

Yes. Lack of apps is a VERY strong reason why peeps don't use it. Developers have been burned by MS before by switching codes from Windows Phone 6 to 7 to 8, and again to Windows Mobile 10. So devs are very skeptical about developing on the platform. Lack of dev support and apps keeps users away, keeping devs away. Just a vicious cycle. Catch 22. MS shot themselves in the foot.

 

[FXi2]

I've got Fidelity, Etrade, Bank of America, Weather Channel, Accuweather, Bloomberg, Cnet, CNN, Concur, FB, Webex, Gotomeeting, Pandora, Spotify, Skype (all platforms btw so I can talk to anyone on any device), Wunderlist and a few more plus the whole Office suite with Skype for Business. Most people use on average 9 apps on surveys taken, so clearly there are some outliers. And yes I do miss apps from some small vendors. But the big hitters for me are in place and work fine. I really think people are shortcutting this question if they don't list what they miss. Does anyone give feedback to both vendors and to MS on apps they "wish for"? Do you post in the DEV forums that you hope someone builds an app for some vendor or purpose?

Do you have to pay every bill with a phone? A tablet wouldn't do which you can get cheaper than a phone? I get if you can't get a rideshare or a train schedule and that's possibly vital. Or perhaps you have a voice bridge vendor that needs an app specific to the other two platforms. But Android people on older devices complain too about being left behind and the "tax" of having to upgrade their device to get a new OS. Apple has a zillion apps that haven't seen a DEV's update months or even more than a year.

I do get some vital apps, that get critical things done for you on the go. Those can't be replaced. But sometimes I think we are hoping for an Arby's app and calling it "critical" when really it's just a nice to have thing. Go poll your friends with iPhones just what apps they have in their regular arsenal. Most I find is typically 5 a few can double that number but it's not many. Quite a few apps get tried on a phone only for someone to find out that the phone really isn't the place to do that kind of business.

So for me there is a gap but it's not critical at all. Big players I need are present and smaller or alternate vendors who I would like to be here I kindly encourage to try and be a part of Windows.