Learning to appreciate Win 10 and Hamburger

[manicottiK]

But doing it without taking into account the different form factors the controls will be used on is poor design. What works on a PC wont necessarily work on a phone. People don't expect to use a PC or tablet one handed so navigation menus in the top corner of the screen don't matter as much as on a phone where one handed uses is much more natural. Sticking menus at the top of the screen as opposed to near your thumb is poor design, consistency across devices is no excuse.

When using a mouse, the top, bottom, left and right sides are great places for controls because the mouse stops at the edge -- corners are even better. However, fingers aren't mice, as we all hope Microsoft learned from the market response to Windows 8.0.

 

[a5cent]

I won't even make an argument that I followed the guidelines for pivots. I also won't apologize for it because 1) the "rule" is too subtle, 2) users aren't even aware of the rule and actually do think that pivots are "Metro tabs", and 3) there's no alternative offered.

Yup. Number two is clearly demonstrated by many of the discussions so far. As a community, we just have not yet grasped what the pivot is and what it is not.

I've often mentioned how MS needs a mapping between UI elements and their positioning on small and large screens, where their visual representation and interaction models don't necessarily have to be identical.
Some have since suggested mapping a pivot to a side panel, but that doesn't work as they represent completely different concepts:

One may or may not modify the back stack, one never does. One is for the filtering or sorting of closely related / identical content, the other for navigating between largely unrelated parts of an app. One is for two-step access to rarely used navigational functionality, the other for single-step access to commonly used non-navigational functionality.

There is no mapping between these two concepts. It's also why the notion that pivots are being replaced by side panels is a bit misguided. To a degree that mey be true, but it isn't the full story.

Anyway, I don't blame you for being unapologetic. This is one of those situations where MS actually does deserve the blame for failing to address a UI requirement for four years...

 

[bschiav]

That was some good conversation between manicottiK and a5cent.

I always thought it was the application bar you use to change context...i.e. the mail app (switch to folders, settings, etc.) or the calendar app (switch between monthly, weekly, etc.). But that clearly didn't always work that well.

Take a look at the One Drive app. This works very similar to the compromise we may be heading toward.

The OneDrive app maintains a pivot which filters content (although it could be argued that this isn't quite following the definition in Metro UI. Because the content type is changing...but for the most part each section of the pivot is "stuff" that's stored in OneDrive). The pivot is also completely shown on screen. So if you blew this up to a desktop app. You can still just point and click as if they were buttons.

They also still maintain an application bar.

But then they also have a hamburger button where you can switch to screens for transfer progress or settings. This is what's weird...because this could have easily just been included in the application bar (with the account settings, in settings, where it likely should belong). I think this UI change was an attempt to feel out the public with some new controls. (remember that backlash?)

So it's kind of a mash up of elements.

 

[rhapdog]

The hamburger menu is just a poor man's way of getting to other options. With WP we have ... which is much more elegant, compact, and positioned near your thumb. There is no reason to accept the asinine idea that we suddenly need hamburger buttons. The last time I checked Windows 10 isn't a mobile website.

While I understand your point, I must disagree. The "more elegant, compact, and positioned near your thumb" solution that Microsoft has been using makes it nearly impossible for me to use the menus. My fingers and thumbs are simply too broad (fat, whatever, though I'm not overweight) to be able to use it effectively. 90% of the time, I have to try 4 or 5 times to be able to get it to even come up, because I hit everything around it. Remember when, in the movie Fantastic Four, the Thing tried to pick up the engagement ring that his fiance left on the pavement for him, and he couldn't get it because of his oversized fingers? That's how I feel trying to hit those 3 dots most of the time. Very frustrated. The hamburger menu I can hit on the first try most times, sometimes it takes a second try, but never so many multiple tries as it does with the 3 dots. I'll be glad to see those go.

Pivots were never intended to have more than four parts. Recommended is three. I don't think I have a single app installed where I can't reach the intended section with but a single swipe.

Actually, you do. It's called the Store. Pull up an individual app in the store, and you'll see "Overview", "Reviews", "Details", and "Related". The main 2 sections I want to see is Overview and Details, and I have to swipe 2x to go back and forth. On a low end device, it is rather frustrating.

How about MSN Weather, which comes with the device, but you may have uninstalled it. There is "today, daily, hourly, maps, ski, favorites." That's 6 swipes worth of screens, and you'd have to swipe 3 times to get to maps either way. Or, swipe once so that the word maps becomes visible on low res devices, then tap it. Still, multiple actions required.

I'm not criticizing these, but you stated you didn't think you had an app installed where you could not reach the intended section with but a single swipe, and I'm just pointing out examples.

When using a mouse, the top, bottom, left and right sides are great places for controls because the mouse stops at the edge -- corners are even better. However, fingers aren't mice, as we all hope Microsoft learned from the market response to Windows 8.0.

Actually, the mouse does not always stop at the edge of the screen. Imagine using multiple monitors where they are "extended desktops." This is the way I've been running my desktop PC for over 5 years. It is pretty much impossible for me to stop at the sides of the primary monitor when it moves to the monitor to the left or right of it. Just sayin'.

 

[SammyD97]

Saw this thread earlier today while eating a hamburger. Was a little confused at first as to what Windows 10 has to do with a hamburger, lol, but then I figured you weren't talking about the one in front of me.

 

[anon8959613]

Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger.
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a ham-bur-ger.
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger!
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen"!

- The Pink Panther

 

[a5cent]

Actually, you do. It's called the Store. Pull up an individual app in the store, and you'll see "Overview", "Reviews", "Details", and "Related". The main 2 sections I want to see is Overview and Details, and I have to swipe 2x to go back and forth. On a low end device, it is rather frustrating.

How about MSN Weather, which comes with the device, but you may have uninstalled it.

I'm not criticizing these, but you stated you didn't think you had an app installed where you could not reach the intended section with but a single swipe, and I'm just pointing out examples.

Yup, I don't use MSN weather. I don't remember why I uninstalled it, but that may have been it.

In regard to the store, and in my defence, I did say "I think" :wink:

Four sections still seems ok to me however. I've never owned a low end device, so I can't say how frustrating that is. I currently use a mid range L830, and although it has a low-end SoC, it's more than nimble enough in the store. No problem. More than four sections is completely intolerable however. That is certainly a situation where a pivot shouldn't be used. However, that doesn't mean that pivots are generally bad either. You're surely aware that the key to all of these issues is to use the right tool for the job. There are some jobs where the pivot is the right tool.

Let me rephrase:
Of all the apps I use at least once a week, about twelve, none use pivots with more than three sections. That's how it should be. When used correctly, pivots are nice to work with. When used incorrectly, side panels are even worse, as they force you into a click-fest. Even more so than incorrectly used pivots require swiping.

If all we're going to do is list situations where poorly designed apps fail when using a pivot, then we might as well stop using computers. Any UI element can fail in terms of UX when used poorly.

 

[tiziano27]

This is so spot on. There is no traditional "tab control" in WP. The Pivot, which looks an awful lot like a tab control, was specifically NOT supposed to be used in that way. In the way that Microsoft envisioned and documented it, each panel on a pivot was to show the same data types and formats, but with different filters applied to each. The Email app is a follower of that model: each panel is a list of mail with a filter applied (none, unread, flagged, or urgent).

I remember that. I could add that Metro in general wasn't designed to provide the information density that people wants in smartphones today. Metro was designer for an accessory device, not the main device in people's life.

Metro hold back Windows Phone and It's one of the causes of the failure of the product. That's why Microsoft is introducing changes that improve the user experience.

The hamburger menu is a good solution if used properly. Smartphones aren't designed to win a race of single thumb usage efficiency. There are more important aspects of the user experience that also deserve attention.

 

[manicottiK]

Actually, the mouse does not always stop at the edge of the screen. Imagine using multiple monitors where they are "extended desktops." This is the way I've been running my desktop PC for over 5 years. It is pretty much impossible for me to stop at the sides of the primary monitor when it moves to the monitor to the left or right of it. Just sayin'.

Well, the "edge" is the edge of the logical display area, not each physical sub-component. (I'm driving three screens now and occasionally extend to a large wall-mounted panel that's 14" away -- moving my mouse between the main ones and that is always a mental challenge because I never remember where I put it!

For more on this idea, see Particletree ? Visualizing Fitts?s Law and scroll down to the "Rule of the Infinite Edge" section.

Fun fact, at Win8, Microsoft put small "gates" in the corners of your monitors so that the mouse wouldn't automatically slide from one to the other and effectively making the corners "infinitely sized" even in a multi-monitor setup. If you have two monitors with an aligned top edge, start sliding the mouse sideways from one to the other along the top edge -- the mouse will stop at the corner. The "gate" is only a few pixels tall, so it's easy to move around.

 

[manicottiK]

I could add that Metro in general wasn't designed to provide the information density that people want in smartphones today.

I agree, but think that people only mistakenly think that they want high information density. In my younger days I'd be willing to argue that everyone is wrong and their wrongness can be proved empirically. Too paternalistic or condescending? Maybe -- but it remains true that people often demand the exact opposite of what's best for them. Now, let me take off this Fitbit and eat another cookie... :wink:

 

[tiziano27]

Now, let me take off this Fitbit and eat another cookie... :wink:

A hamburger would be more appropriate.

 

[manicottiK]

A hamburger would be more appropriate.

Darn it, how did I miss that!? I must be slipping (possibly on hamburger grease).

 

[anon(8032808)]

They got rid of them to help get more apps I think. By embracing the current designs of iOS and Android, they feel devs can now more easily port over their apps to Windows. And at the same time, Microsoft can create a consistent feel in their apps as well across all platforms.

 

[Kram Sacul]

While I understand your point, I must disagree. The "more elegant, compact, and positioned near your thumb" solution that Microsoft has been using makes it nearly impossible for me to use the menus. My fingers and thumbs are simply too broad (fat, whatever, though I'm not overweight) to be able to use it effectively. 90% of the time, I have to try 4 or 5 times to be able to get it to even come up, because I hit everything around it. Remember when, in the movie Fantastic Four, the Thing tried to pick up the engagement ring that his fiance left on the pavement for him, and he couldn't get it because of his oversized fingers? That's how I feel trying to hit those 3 dots most of the time. Very frustrated. The hamburger menu I can hit on the first try most times, sometimes it takes a second try, but never so many multiple tries as it does with the 3 dots. I'll be glad to see those go.

Try swiping up instead of touching the ellipsis. In some apps you don't even have to touch the ... You can just swipe up from the bar to get to the options. It's inconsistent though. It works in the pictures gallery, messaging, maps, games, calendar, but not in phone, people, the store, etc. The touch targets also vary.

 

[WPit]

Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger.
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a ham-bur-ger.
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger!
Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen"!

- The Pink Panther

.
.
.

- You imbecile, not now Cato! Joke ; ) ! I just love Sellers!

 

[steppyhen]

Try swiping up instead of touching the ellipsis. In some apps you don't even have to touch the ... You can just swipe up from the bar to get to the options. It's inconsistent though. It works in the pictures gallery, messaging, maps, games, calendar, but not in phone, people, the store, etc. The touch targets also vary.

I didn't know you could swipe up from the '...' - thanks!

I'm not bowled over by the hamburger icon, I think more that it is in the top left hand corner. If it was somewhere more reachable then I may be happier with it, but we'll see how things change over the coming months through new TP builds and feedback MS receive...

 

[rockstarzzz]

These are the uservoice requests that deserves your upvotes.

Stick to Modern

Existing features evergreen

Navigation at the bottom

More personalisation

 

[drachen23]

I agree, but think that people only mistakenly think that they want high information density. In my younger days I'd be willing to argue that everyone is wrong and their wrongness can be proved empirically.

Amen, brother.

 

[TechFreak1]

Personally I'm currently on the fence in regards to the changes to the UX, I will decide after using it myself for awhile if it works for me or not.

I won't lie the windows phone fan in me cringed "why microsoft! why?!" after I saw the leaks and screenshots :winktongue::grincry:. After the initial shock I have had plenty of time to think about it.

Never the less this the first build, things can change between now & launch.

 

[worldspy99]

One of the biggest reasons I am a fan on WP is the ability to use the phone and navigate using one hand....the hamburger in the top left corner just defeats the purpose which one of my biggest gripes with Android. And iOS is just so clunky in terms of figuring out what to do in the app with a complete mishmash of toggles and buttons unique to each app, that one button in the middle kinda ruins it for me...

When someone asks me why I use WP, the navigation bar at the bottom with the 3 dots is what I show them and it usually wows people on iOS or Android because the simplicity / elegance of it is unparalleled IMO.