N-triq over Wacom kills the Pro 3 for me.

[Kevin Rush]

I will give it an honest try and keep an open mind. I do think that everyone should list the current price of each Wacom device that they love so much. For instance, the Wacon Cintiq 13D tablet (not PC computer) is $990 on Amazon. The Intuos Large tablet, not computer, is $450. People have said that Wacom is over priced, but worth it. I'm guessing economics is why the Pro 3 doesn't have all that Wacom technology.

Let's move forward.

 

[unstoppablekem]

​I've had issues with my current Wacom pen on my SP2, like it is very inaccurate on the corners, so I like this pen more. It also feels and looks more like a REAL pen...

 

[jhoff80]

Honestly, some of us really do not need to test it to know it is a deal killer. Even if it works spectacularly in Photoshop, which I doubt given the sloppiness and laziness of Adobe in coding over the past few years, there are other business applications out there which are now mainstream (and very expensive) that know of no existence beyond Wacom. Drafting and GIS applications come to mind first. This may be the best pen the world has ever seen and use of a proprietary design still makes it a niche product that I can't sell to the tech people in my profession. More to the point it makes it a product that, if I can use it at all, will involve compromises in workflow.

Sorry but this isn't idle speculation, it is simply a fact of life regarding where the markets are and how fast (and for what reasons) they advance change. Surface Pro 3 would need to be an original IPad level runaway success to see bona fide adoption in some pen/digitizer reliant applications within a year. Even at that, in an era of cost savings and lean development budgets, these companies need to design for Wacom digitizer technology for existing hardware that won't be updated for many to Windows 7 for another year and Apple products still justifiably loved by many graphics/design people. For me Microsoft has designed an otherwise exceptional product, although I still like the smaller form factor, but then threw in something that hamstrings it. There are reasons they went with a Wacom pen with Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 and nothing has happened to change that particular technological landscape. It really may be a wonderful device and a great pen but on the digitizer front, I cannot justify Surface Pro 3. It would be Surface Pro 4 or 5 before it could even be in the cards. If there was one thing they should not shift fro industry standard, this was absolutely it.

I haven't used N-trig since the first generation, so I can't speak to how well this works these days. However, N-trig has Wintab compatibility (I believe with a wrapper - at least that's how it worked when they had that for the device I had):

Lobby - N-trig

Look at "Download Wintab Driver" on the bottom right.

Edit: Also, for those who claim that the switch to N-trig is only rumor:

http://www.n-trig.com/Content.aspx?Page=Windows8

DuoSense-enabled devices include:
•Microsoft Surface Pro 3

 

[John20212]

I don't see how that would be possible without a battery in the Wacom pen. Unlike the sensors already there, a Bluetooth chip would require its own power.

Personally I would not mind a battery to power the Bluetooth, and since the pen function does not need the power it would only power the Bluetooth button.

 

[akaliel]

This is still just running windows 8.1. Is there hardware that ties it to N-Triq? Or can you still use a Wacom pen from a Surface Pro 2?

 

[Kronus24]

So much complaining about this N-trig vs Wacom. When we have no reviews from real professional artists using the surface pro 3 comparing the differences yet. But is funny to read all this crying from assumptions. You know what they say about people that assume, lol.

 

[jhoff80]

This is still just running windows 8.1. Is there hardware that ties it to N-Triq? Or can you still use a Wacom pen from a Surface Pro 2?

They're two separate technologies. It's like how you couldn't plug a Firewire cable into a USB port, and vice versa. (Slightly dated analogy but it's the best I could think of at the moment). The pen and the device need to be using the same technology for it to work.

 

[Dustin Hodges]

I like how some who don't use pens for anything artistic tell the art guys 256 is enough for you...

I actually do art on my Ativ Smart. It's no professional level artwork by no stretch of the imagination. But I never heard about "pressure sensitivity" on my own or from other artists I've spoken to until now.

Don't assume I'm some unartistic ***** who's telling you its enough. All I'm saying is "give it a fair chance". If you do, and it still sucks, good for you, your point still stands. But if it's even a slight bit usable for your needs, then maybe you should reevaluate your position on the importance of pressure sensitive.

 

[Kronus24]

Would no parallax, no lag, make up for 1024, 2048, +++ pressure points that the N-trig does not have?(not saying the it has no parallax, no lag) I don't know, but for the processional business users the closer it seems to be like paper the better.

But again, so much assumptions, how good the drivers, how good Photoshop and other drawing programs works with N trig and Microsoft, etc, etc. I would think Microsoft is going to go hard to push N-trig and Wacom might be on the losing end in the long term. Only time will tell.

Microsoft Surface Pro 3 Hands On Impressions

"The display also contributes to the positive tablet/stylus experience. That super-thin optical stack we mentioned earlier goes a long way to reducing parallax. If you’ve ever written on a tablet before, you’ve probably noticed that no matter how precise the stylus is, or how comfortable it is in your hand, the experience is kind of ruined by the fact that the pen nib is resting on glass, and the actual writing or “ink” is happening underneath that glass. It’s probably not much in terms of distance, but the gap can look as big as a couple of millimeters. Microsoft’s thin optical stack reduces the gap you see between pen and “ink” which means there’s hardly any lag on the tablet itself or in your brain, when you’re watching what you’re writing. This is such an amazing improvement."

 

[realwarder]

In the announcement presentation they said Wacom once when first talking about the pen. But I do have the phrase N-trig in my head. No idea if that's just from reading it on WPC or from somewhere else in the presentation.

 

[Reflexx]

So much complaining about this N-trig vs Wacom. When we have no reviews from real professional artists using the surface pro 3 comparing the differences yet. But is funny to read all this crying from assumptions. You know what they say about people that assume, lol.

Crying? We're just concerned. Most of us have stated that we're willing to give this a chance,but it doesn't sound good.

Yet there you are throwing barbs when you know nothing about the industry.

It's funny when people completely ignorant about a subject feel like they have to insult others.

 

[Reflexx]

​I've had issues with my current Wacom pen on my SP2, like it is very inaccurate on the corners, so I like this pen more. It also feels and looks more like a REAL pen...

I liked that part. My pen on my Surface Pro is too dinky. I wish I could use my Intuos pen on it.

 

[Reflexx]

Would no parallax, no lag, make up for 1024, 2048, +++ pressure points that the N-trig does not have?(not saying the it has no parallax, no lag) I don't know, but for the processional business users the closer it seems to be like paper the better.

Those would definitely be nice... but it doesn't really "make up" for losing pressure sensitivity.

But again, so much assumptions, how good the drivers, how good Photoshop and other drawing programs works with N trig and Microsoft, etc, etc. I would think Microsoft is going to go hard to push N-trig and Wacom might be on the losing end in the long term. Only time will tell.

The assumptions are based on past performance from both manufacturers and the needs of the industry. There is a track record.

If things change, then great. But for now, it's smart for digital artists to be wary before purchase.

Microsoft Surface Pro 3 Hands On Impressions

"The display also contributes to the positive tablet/stylus experience. That super-thin optical stack we mentioned earlier goes a long way to reducing parallax. If you?ve ever written on a tablet before, you?ve probably noticed that no matter how precise the stylus is, or how comfortable it is in your hand, the experience is kind of ruined by the fact that the pen nib is resting on glass, and the actual writing or ?ink? is happening underneath that glass. It?s probably not much in terms of distance, but the gap can look as big as a couple of millimeters. Microsoft?s thin optical stack reduces the gap you see between pen and ?ink? which means there?s hardly any lag on the tablet itself or in your brain, when you?re watching what you?re writing. This is such an amazing improvement."

That stuff sounds good. But in all honesty, that is a cool luxury. Pressure sensitivity is about what you're actually able to produce. It directly affects quality. The other stuff is more about ease of use. I welcome it, but it doesn't make me more confident about 256 levels of pressure.

It's not like we're comparing 800 to 1024. It's 256. Miniscule.

 

[Reflexx]

I actually do art on my Ativ Smart. It's no professional level artwork by no stretch of the imagination. But I never heard about "pressure sensitivity" on my own or from other artists I've spoken to until now.

Don't assume I'm some unartistic ***** who's telling you its enough. All I'm saying is "give it a fair chance". If you do, and it still sucks, good for you, your point still stands. But if it's even a slight bit usable for your needs, then maybe you should reevaluate your position on the importance of pressure sensitive.

It may depend on the type of art you do. If you're mainly doing stuff like web comics it may not be that big a deal. If you're trying to create realistic textures or mattes, well... it's a whole different story.

 

[a5cent]

Honestly, some of us really do not need to test it to know it is a deal killer. <important stuff snipped>

I understand that point. It is however a completely different point than what others have been making so far. The topic so far has been whether having only "250" pressure sensitivity levels dooms this pen or not. I understand that processes, standards, marketing and politics also play important roles. I understand that such concerns may make the technical merits of this pen irrelevant. It's just that I don't care about those aspects, at least not in discussions at WPC. That kind of stuff I have enough of at work.

I can't judge how important this is for the success of the SP3. It's a shame if it is the device's death knell in artistic circles.

 

[Reflexx]

I understand that point. It is however a completely different point than what others have been making so far. The topic so far has been whether having only "250" pressure sensitivity levels dooms this pen or not. I understand that processes, standards, marketing and politics also play important roles. I understand that such concerns may make the technical merits of this pen irrelevant. It's just that I don't care about those aspects, at least not in discussions at WPC. That kind of stuff I have enough of at work.

I can't judge how important this is for the success of the SP3. It's a shame if it is the device's death knell in artistic circles.

It's far from a death knell. For most people, the trade-offs will benefit them.

For pro digital art work... not so much.

But because of the improvements it does have, it does look like it would be fun as heck to sketch on.

 

[Mercule]

While I don't want to see the artists left in the cold, one of the major reasons I returned my Pro was because the stylus wasn't accurate, especially at the edges. I really like storing my notes digitally, and I have pretty small handwriting (the printout from Notepad has about the same sized text as the top sheet on the notebook sitting next to it on my desk, right now).

Using the original stylus during meetings was like writing with a warm crayon. The lack of precision (even after some of the hacks) forced me to use gigantic letters and I still wasn't confident whether I was crossing my "T" or underlining it. The display ratio just made it worse by letting me only get a handful of words on each line. I honestly can't imagine how anyone could draw with it without throwing it across the room. There must be something with the artist's eye that let's you look at the cursor, rather than the pen.

So, I guess my thoughts on the change are that I'm glad they're addressing the basic use case, even if it means they have to step back from the advanced case. Hopefully, the n-Trig isn't too bad. If there is a downgrade, it would be nice if they can address it with an updated pen and/or driver, but I don't know how these things work.

 

[rocketboy]

I'm curious which old tablet PC you used. It's only in the last few years that Wacom tablet PCs have moved past 256 levels of pressure sensitivity. And I've read that those extra levels on the tablet PC digitizers (not talking about Intuos or Cintiq) are done through software interpolation anyway... though we don't really have any way of confirming that.

Thinkpad X201T is what I did most of my mobile sketching on. I've also owned a Toshiba M201 and before that the Acer C100. Neither the Acer nor the Toshiba had accurate enough color reproduction for me to do serious work. The X201T was a marked improvement in that respect but relatively low resolution. Curiously, some quick research shows there's a range of possibilities as far as pressure sensitivity support with some reporting as low as 256 and as high as 1024. Possibly due to the fact that you could get the machine built with a bewildering array of screen options. Unfortunately, I've sold those machines so I can't confirm for sure. Again, it was all right for concept sketching but I rarely tried to do finished work with it and pressure sensitivity was a factor in that (the other was small screen resolution).

This was a tablet circa 2007/2008. Even if the SP3 could fill this exact role it's kind of a low bar in 2014. I've found the SP2 to be an improvement all-around with it's combination of touch, pen, and pressure support.

But back more to the OP...digital artists have longed for a viable alternative to Wacom. I keep up with a lot of news in this area and N-Trig is not a new technology. If there were a genuine breakthrough with N-Trig vs. Wacom I'm pretty sure the digital art community would be abuzz. I'd love it to be true, but I just find it hard to believe that somehow this is going to be the magic N-Trig pen. Time will tell.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

While I don't want to see the artists left in the cold, one of the major reasons I returned my Pro was because the stylus wasn't accurate, especially at the edges. I really like storing my notes digitally, and I have pretty small handwriting (the printout from Notepad has about the same sized text as the top sheet on the notebook sitting next to it on my desk, right now).

Using the original stylus during meetings was like writing with a warm crayon. The lack of precision (even after some of the hacks) forced me to use gigantic letters and I still wasn't confident whether I was crossing my "T" or underlining it. The display ratio just made it worse by letting me only get a handful of words on each line. I honestly can't imagine how anyone could draw with it without throwing it across the room. There must be something with the artist's eye that let's you look at the cursor, rather than the pen.

So, I guess my thoughts on the change are that I'm glad they're addressing the basic use case, even if it means they have to step back from the advanced case. Hopefully, the n-Trig isn't too bad. If there is a downgrade, it would be nice if they can address it with an updated pen and/or driver, but I don't know how these things work.

I've heard that complaint (inaccurate near the edges) from various people. Wacom has a good reputation (probably well-deserved) but they're not perfect. It is clear that the Surface Pro 3 is designed for the general purpose professional. The pen was described and showcased with OneNote and compared to a yellow writing pad. What clouded the presentation, IMO, was having the Adobe guy briefly demonstration the Surfaced-optimized Photoshop... which perhaps led some to believe that the pen was optimized for graphics.

 

[anon(5445874)]

As I said in the other thread, I'm an artist and I actually think the new tech will work better, if it works like they say it will. I don't care how many levels of pressure the surface pro and pro 2 had, the pen hardly ever drew exactly on the right spot. And the edges were AWFUL. I'm looking forward to using the pro 3, hopefully it works as advertised.