Official 8.1/Denim for the Icon?

[MikeSo]

He's hung up on it because there is something different between GSM and CDMA that is important to the discussion. In fact, no Microsoft cannot release the firmware on their own. The CDMA protocol used cryptographic keys to control devices (not just phones, but pretty much any device, including repeater hardware) that are allowed on the network. Microsoft does not have the right, legally or contractually, to embed those keys into the firmware. In fact, I don't think Verizon does the embedding either, I believe Qualcomm controls the keys. GSM, on the other hand, is a more open standard.

Right, i don't dispute any of the legal stuff. I'm just talking about the technical aspect.

 

[PhreePhlyer]

Right, i don't dispute any of the legal stuff. I'm just talking about the technical aspect.

Even the technical aspect is out of Microsofts control. They don't have the keys. I believe they submit the software and Qualcomm embeds the keys.

 

[anon(7901790)]

This simply isn't true Apple software goes thought the same carrier testing and approval that all the other brands do, they just make sure all the carriers are done testing before they announce the update. Though given Apple's clout I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't demand the carriers be done testing by a certain date.

Here is an article that describes the way carrier testing works and one part to notice is the section on how they prioritize that testing. I am sure Verizon sets the priority of Windows Phones just below the 5 year old Blackberrys

Why Android Updates Are So Slow

Nice article. I had a Verizon Galaxy Nexus, so I saw the frustration from more than a few of my fellow VZW GNex owners. A buddy of mine had the GSM version and he got JB about two months before I did. This is what a few of us have been saying all along. Verizon won't release an OTA unless it works perfectly (or as near to perfect as possible) on its network.

 

[anon(7901790)]

Even the technical aspect is out of Microsofts control. They don't have the keys. I believe they submit the software and Qualcomm embeds the keys.

And Qualcomm (or whatever chipmaker is used) receives the CDMA keys from the carrier that the hardware will be used on.

 

[Polychrome]

Wasn't there something about the VoLTE capabilities of Denim that made this more attractive? There is precedence now that a company (O2 in Europe) will release Cyan and Denim at the same time...

Just giving my $.02 because I work there and all... IMO this is the most likely cause of the pushback on the software. Many of the AWS-capable phones are currently under some sort of testing for use on VoLTE. Going by some rumor-mongering I've heard around the office, there are a LOT of phones getting software pushback right now, including *many* androids. In the case of a couple androids (not naming names) a few software updates the wrong direction completely borked their ability to maintain a voice connection in lower-signal areas.

I love my Icon to death...but I also like having my voice connection working properly.

So yeah, Verizon does not have some silly vendetta against Windows Phones, Microsoft, Nokia, etc. There are no internal documents or policies telling us not to sell Windows Phones or anything stupid like that. Could reps be more willing to place it in front of customers? Yes. Should individual reps get over the "no apps" stereotype? Yes. But there is no conspiracy. None. Nope. Nada.

 

[MikeSo]

Even the technical aspect is out of Microsofts control. They don't have the keys. I believe they submit the software and Qualcomm embeds the keys.

Ok. But isn't this already done? I mean, this is not a new phone, Microsoft has already done all this. Are you saying that for every firmware update this has to be done all over again?

I just find the whole argument that it's CDMA that's holding it up to be pretty weak, but hey, maybe that's true.

 

[PhreePhlyer]

Ok. But isn't this already done? I mean, this is not a new phone, Microsoft has already done all this. Are you saying that for every firmware update this has to be done all over again?

I just find the whole argument that it's CDMA that's holding it up to be pretty weak, but hey, maybe that's true.

For every firmware update, this gets done. Microsoft, most likely, does not have the keys. Now, I don't believe CDMA is what is causing the software to be rejected. That sounds like another problem altogether. It's just the fact that this is a CDMA network, even if they wanted to, MS couldn't release the update. With GSM, if there were a way to get your hands on the completed firmware, you could install and be on your way, but not with CDMA.

 

[MikeSo]

For every firmware update, this gets done. Microsoft, most likely, does not have the keys. Now, I don't believe CDMA is what is causing the software to be rejected. That sounds like another problem altogether. It's just the fact that this is a CDMA network, even if they wanted to, MS couldn't release the update. With GSM, if there were a way to get your hands on the completed firmware, you could install and be on your way, but not with CDMA.

I suppose. Seems it's an academic question anyway, since Microsoft doesn't release GSM firmware either.

 

[grafixguy#AC]

So yeah, Verizon does not have some silly vendetta against Windows Phones, Microsoft, Nokia, etc. There are no internal documents or policies telling us not to sell Windows Phones or anything stupid like that. Could reps be more willing to place it in front of customers? Yes. Should individual reps get over the "no apps" stereotype? Yes. But there is no conspiracy. None. Nope. Nada.

So, it's just incompetence and lousy training of sales people? Sorry, I would have bought this 3 months ago but given that every company in the world has rolled out these updates and that Verizon has seen fit to kill what is arguably the best Windows Phone on the planet in the Icon, there is more going on here than the bull**** "rigorous testing" that Verizon CSRs keep spewing.

 

[SoapBox3000]

well because of this issue with cyan and denim coming out for verizon phones and the fact that my verizon bill is 240. im biting the bullet and just bought the Lumia 1520 from the microsoft store for AT&T and will be taking my service to them along with my Lumia 2520 from verizon. I am sad to go but ill be saving 80$ a month by doing this

 

[gamefrick]

So are you going for the HTC One M8 for Windows on Verizon?

 

[grafixguy#AC]

So are you going for the HTC One M8 for Windows on Verizon?

I don't know who you're asking but no, I wouldn't consider it since the camera can't hold a candle to the Icon.

 

[Polychrome]

So, it's just incompetence and lousy training of sales people? Sorry, I would have bought this 3 months ago but given that every company in the world has rolled out these updates and that Verizon has seen fit to kill what is arguably the best Windows Phone on the planet in the Icon, there is more going on here than the bull**** "rigorous testing" that Verizon CSRs keep spewing.

You're looking for things that simply aren't there.

I love windows phone. I use it. I sit next to another windows phone user and we consider it almost a secret club. We like grumbling about how we didn't get at the Microsoft Band before they all sold out. However, at least in the eyes of the public (and a lot of the employees unfortunately) there is still the stereotype that there are "no apps", even among those who like it. This isn't something coming from the higher ups. If anything, the higher ups keep trying to squash this silly belief internally through trainings and meetings. There's also a diagnostic tool that's in the works that will allow us to get stats such as signal strength (in dbm), memory usage, crashing apps, etc. We already have the tool for Android and there's a windows phone version in the works.

It's also worth considering that there are simply a lot more android phones out there.

And I was serious that a lot of android phones are getting the same testing treatment right now. They're being extremely cautious after a couple software versions on some androids went sour. A few of them actually have manufacturer replacement programs because the bad software release made them unusable in certain situations. Can you imagine how much money this costs both Verizon *and* the manufacturers?

The fact is, people are looking for someone to blame. They're mad, they're frustrated, they want to know whose head to demand. And it's hard to do that when its nobody's fault.

 

[HarrBear]

I don't know who you're asking but no, I wouldn't consider it since the camera can't hold a candle to the Icon.

You can get the same software with the Developer's Preview, and then you're just waiting on Cyan. The Icon camera is worth sticking around.

 

[grafixguy#AC]

The fact is, people are looking for someone to blame. They're mad, they're frustrated, they want to know whose head to demand. And it's hard to do that when its nobody's fault.

Look, I know you're trying to help and I appreciate the input but your timing sucks. You should have posted this three months ago when it would have been valid. WTF was Verizon doing the last four months since Microsoft released this?

As for training? I've seen no sign of it in any Verizon Wireless store. Why was I (and just about everyone else around here) promised the 8.1 and Cyan updates? Why was the phone killed, um, retired?

You're going to have to try much harder to convince me this isn't on Verizon at this point. If they shoved it back to Microsoft in August that would have been valid. Not anymore. This is on them.

 

[Polychrome]

Look, I know you're trying to help and I appreciate the input but your timing sucks. You should have posted this three months ago when it would have been valid. WTF was Verizon doing the last four months since Microsoft released this?

I'll be honest. I'm only one person and I only browse forums for fun. I typically have only been checking the "rumor mill" websites for news on Windows Phone smartwatches. I honestly didn't know people were this angry about it until recently.

There have been many, MANY phones in extended testing due to VoLTE, and there have been other apps in development. Software updates on 4G phones have been coming slow. I know that's not the answer that people are looking for, and if you want to claim that as "on Verizon", go right ahead. I'm only here to say there's no conspiracy, nor is there reason for one.

Also, I also believe it's an issue of squeaky wheel getting the grease. We get tons of complaints from a variety of people finding a variety of interesting ways to crash android phones. There's a good amount of fragmentation, and not every app plays well with every phone, resulting in lots of perpetually angry customers. We get next to no complaints about windows phones. It's not that we don't see windows phones, we just typically see them for transactional things like activations or setting up roaming. Having a stable software release that doesn't give the customers trouble (a rare thing for smartphones) may make a carrier nervous about pushing a software update unless absolutely necessary. This last bit is admittedly pure speculation on my part.

 

[awilliams1701]

CDMA is a locked network. Verizon is the ONLY one that can approve firmware for the network. In order for Microsoft to push the firmware without approval, they would have to hack Verizon's network and steal the CDMA keys. This has nothing to do with it being a more difficult protocol it has to do with the closed nature of the protocol. Its like getting into an unlocked car without keys and asking why you can't make it start. Verizon has 100% total control of this network. AT&T and T-Mobile do not. GSM is not like this at all. GSM is simply based on the SIM card and approval isn't necessary.

I don't know why you are so hung up on this CDMA thing. There's nothing magical or exotic about CDMA that makes it harder to update firmware on a CDMA phone than on a GSM phone. Microsoft could release firmware if they wanted to.

 

[awilliams1701]

CDMA = Verizon or Sprint have the keys and must approve the update no matter what
GSM part1 = Sign this agreement that we have control of the firmware or we won't sell your phone (IE MS could give T-Mobile the finger and release Cyan on the 810, but could get sued over it)
GSM part2 = Unbranded non carrier phone (IE the 1520.3) MS/Nokia are exclusively responsible for the firmware.

I suppose. Seems it's an academic question anyway, since Microsoft doesn't release GSM firmware either.

 

[grafixguy#AC]

I'll be honest. I'm only one person and I only browse forums for fun. I typically have only been checking the "rumor mill" websites for news on Windows Phone smartwatches. I honestly didn't know people were this angry about it until recently.

Most of us weren't angry until recently. Anyone on Verizon understands we will never be first to get updates but when Cricket phones are updated before ours and we find out that it took months before Verizon even tried to test this...well, I for one am mighty pissed off. Two months ago I was among those waiting patiently.

 

[Indistinguishable]

Most of us weren't angry until recently. Anyone on Verizon understands we will never be first to get updates but when Cricket phones are updated before ours and we find out that it took months before Verizon even tried to test this...well, I for one am mighty pissed off. Two months ago I was among those waiting patiently.

His story checks out

One of the many times I mentioned that I was going to leave Verizon for AT&T, graffixguy told me to shut up and that I was a spoiled child.

This was about two months ago on the original Cyan/8.1 thread. http://forums.windowscentral.com/nokia-lumia-icon/296276-11.htm#post2749117