Our Surface 2's future

[jhoff80]

I suspect that ARM devices won't have the desktop in 10. Depending on how you use your Surface 2, that could be good or bad for you (personally, I think it's really stupid if that ends up being the case).

 

[Grodelj]

I suspect that ARM devices won't have the desktop in 10. Depending on how you use your Surface 2, that could be good or bad for you (personally, I think it's really stupid if that ends up being the case).

I hope that this will not be the case.

 

[etphoto]

I suspect that ARM devices won't have the desktop in 10. Depending on how you use your Surface 2, that could be good or bad for you (personally, I think it's really stupid if that ends up being the case).

As long as Office and other desktop type programs work I am ok with that.

 

[Cruncher04]

I suspect that ARM devices won't have the desktop in 10.

Why would they remove the desktop? Do you have any evidence for this?

 

[WillysJeepMan]

Why would they remove the desktop? Do you have any evidence for this?

In the past there were various interviews with Microsoft execs who indicated that the presence of the desktop was a decision made simply because there was no Modern UI version of Office available when they released the Surface.

The implication was that the desktop was not in their original plan for Windows RT devices and that once MS Office for MUI is released, there would be no reason for the desktop.

That's a mistake IMO since I found the desktop to be greatly valuable in using my Surface RT and Surface 2.

 

[John Steffes]

I always want to read these interviews can you post URL's or some proof of this.

FYI I have watched the Surface launch, Surface 2 launch, and Surface Pro 3 launch, and they explain, that they wanted the Desktop as part of the original Surface RT OS...

 

[jhoff80]

Why would they remove the desktop? Do you have any evidence for this?

Mostly speculation, but there's also similar rumors as well.

The removal of the desktop has been talked about about in the past, and will be mostly apparent with Windows RT devices. Current Win32 applications are being replaced with Modern UI alternatives which means the desktop will have no real use. Of course, the removal of the desktop isn't for all devices, so don't be alarmed fellow desktop users.

The idea with Threshold on tablets is to make it an immersive experience. The inclusion of the Desktop with Windows RT was a huge mistake for Microsoft. It's a jarring transition between both environments and consumers never really knew which one they wanted to use. With Threshold, Microsoft wants to make sure that devices which run the Modern UI and devices which run the desktop and distinctly different, and the way they're doing this is simple.

Consumers shouldn't be able to tell that it's Windows underlying the UI. This means no registry, desktop icons, close buttons, win32 applications or windows. The Modern UI is front and center and the only thing users should have to deal with.

Windows 9 (Threshold): Welcome to Modern UI 2.0

The combined Phone/Tablet SKU of Threshold won't have a Desktop environment at all, but still will support apps running side by side, my sources are reconfirming. This "Threshold Mobile" SKU will work on ARM-based Windows Phones (not just Lumias), ARM-based Windows tablets and, I believe, Intel-Atom-based tablets.

Windows 'Threshold': More on Microsoft's plan to win over Windows 7 users | ZDNet

Personally, I find it to be idiotic to remove the desktop (and I think that the current Windows 10 x86/x64 builds have absolutely butchered the tablet experience by doing the exact opposite too - not convinced Continuum is the cure here). Either way, the desktop should be something that is always available, but you never see it unless you explicitly choose to open it. But the fact that I think something is stupid most likely means that's the path Microsoft will follow.

 

[John Steffes]

Mostly speculation, but there's also similar rumors as well.

I agree mostly speculation, the product is still being created, we will not know what Windows 10 will be until it is released.

Windows 9 (Threshold): Welcome to Modern UI 2.0

Written Monday, Aug 25th, 2014, before the release of Windows 10 Tech Preview for Enterprise, of which I am an Insider and do have the current latest build, which still has both on x86, have to wait and see for WOA.

Windows 'Threshold': More on Microsoft's plan to win over Windows 7 users | ZDNet

Written June 30, 2014 and Mary Jo Foley has been wrong before, she is not Microsoft and even though she has resources to talk to, even Panos Panay had to correct her in the Surface Launch concerning prices, as she quoted them wrong...

Personally, I find it to be idiotic to remove the desktop (and I think that the current Windows 10 x86/x64 builds have absolutely butchered the tablet experience by doing the exact opposite too - not convinced Continuum is the cure here). Either way, the desktop should be something that is always available, but you never see it unless you explicitly choose to open it. But the fact that I think something is stupid most likely means that's the path Microsoft will follow.

From what has been released concerning Continuum, is that there will be options, one can set, to either stay in desktop mode, or switch, fully a customer choice, but who knows until release?

I am really looking for a announcement from Microsoft, but as an insider, I will send as much feedback as I can that the consumer should have the choice, some want the Desktop mode, some don't...

I use my Surface RT 64G as a Windows XP replacement, would have never purchased it to do only one app at a time (or two side by side), that is so DOS... I do not want just touch, that is why they produced a Type/Touch keyboard with mouse (touchpad) to be productive. Windows is the original multi tasking OS Microsoft produced, it is ashame how they destroyed the idea of Windows just to look like iOS or ANDROID... webOS, Playbook, tried but they did not have enough money... Microsoft has the money, and with feedback hope they allow their customers choice... If one wants touch and look like iOS and ANDROID, they would get those devices...

 

[jhoff80]

before the release of Windows 10 Tech Preview for Enterprise, of which I am an Insider and do have the current latest build, which still has both on x86, have to wait and see for WOA.

No it doesn't. It only has the desktop in which all apps now run no matter what. Yes, you can keep the start screen, but you lose the full-screen, tablet-optimized interface. There's more to the modern UI than just keeping the start screen.

More importantly, the fact that the x86 build might possibly have both means absolutely nothing for the ARM variant. And both of those sources are right far more often than they're not.

 

[John Steffes]

No it doesn't. It only has the desktop in which all apps now run no matter what. Yes, you can keep the start screen, but you lose the full-screen, tablet-optimized interface. There's more to the modern UI than just keeping the start screen.

I again, agree, some want the Start Screen, some want the Start Menu, some want the Desktop, some don't, I want the Start Menu and the Desktop. I am glad they allow the store apps to be windowed, however, you can click the hamburger and select full screen, and you can hide the task bar, which allows one to have the full screen experience (yes I know) it is not the same as the previous immersive shell experience, but it is still close... What we have lost is the charms functionality and have to resort to the hamburger...

More importantly, the fact that the x86 build might possibly have both means absolutely nothing for the ARM variant.

Yes I agree again, WOA, is not know what functionality will be included... I hope they still allow feedback when released, and allow users to customize as they see fit... But on a 80inch screen (HDMI), it does not make sense to have an app full screen, but then it does when I am watching Netflix, or playing a game like Halo... Again the customer should have choice is all I want... Windows 8 and 8.1 and 8.1 Update 1 did not allow this customization, which was a mistake and customers voiced their opinion and now we have Windows 10 Tech Preview...

And both of those sources are right far more often than they're not.

But I am not sure if those sources have a crystal ball and as Microsoft is using customer feedback to change what the build will look like, what they thought (envisioned, during their white boarding) will be different once finalized into RTM...

 

[frimar21]

I'm not a technical guy, or a Microsoft insider, but just a Surface user (and a WP user, and a laptop user, and an xbox user).. so this is a pure user consideration
As far as I can see, w10 will be the only OS to rule them all.. from Phones to Desktops, including tablets, laptops and convertible...
if this is true, the ARM version for Surface (and nokia 2520) should be linked to the arm version for Phones and Phablets, with no desktop, since all the apps are running full screen and with modernUI... and we must assume that there will be an ARM version of win10!
BUT, because it will be the one and single OS, and because on the PC the desktop will be predominant (with some metro app and modern UI included in the start menu), it means that the desktop will be there and it could be that it will be also included in the ARM version...
I mean, if it will be one single OS, it could be that the desktop could be linked to the screen size, but with an option for the user (I don't need a desktop on my mobile phone, but if an universal app will be available ONLY in desktop mode.....)
in any case January 2015 is really behind the corner... :-D

 

[Cruncher04]

I am certain, that even with Windows 10, there will be different development lines for Windows Phone and Windows. Windows RT always has been the ARM version of Windows, there is no reason to remove the desktop because:
a) people like this feature, it is essential for certain administrative tasks, for instance sharing folders over the network, joining a workgroup etc.
b) They need to put additional efforts into removing the desktop

So in essense putting efforts (costs) into removing a feature an thus making the produce less desirable, is stupid.
(Not impliying, that Microsoft make always reasonable decisions)

 

[WillysJeepMan]

I am certain, that even with Windows 10, there will be different development lines for Windows Phone and Windows. Windows RT always has been the ARM version of Windows, there is no reason to remove the desktop because:
a) people like this feature, it is essential for certain administrative tasks, for instance sharing folders over the network, joining a workgroup etc.

That's an odd statement. Everyone that I've interacted with dislikes the desktop. I'm the lone oddball who believes that the Desktop is a BENEFIT of the RT devices. Look at the comments on this forum over the past year and you'll find that I'm virtually the only defender of the desktop on Windows RT.

b) They need to put additional efforts into removing the desktop

That effort has already been expended. It's not publicly available, but a desktop-less version of Windows 8.x/10 exists.

So in essense putting efforts (costs) into removing a feature an thus making the produce less desirable, is stupid.
(Not impliying, that Microsoft make always reasonable decisions)

Although I want to see the desktop exploited MORE on Windows RT devices, I can see Microsoft wanting to further differentiate between the RT and Pro devices. (assuming that the RT devices will be around)

The greatest reason why I believe that Microsoft will remove the desktop from RT devices is because of their near-perfect track record of doing the exact opposite of what I want them to do. :grincry:

 

[Cruncher04]

Look at the comments on this forum over the past year and you'll find that I'm virtually the only defender of the desktop on Windows RT.

I don't think so. You have to distinguish between owners of RT devices and people just posting here. Among the owners, people who want the desktop be gone is the absolute minority.

That effort has already been expended. It's not publicly available, but a desktop-less version of Windows 8.x/10 exists.

That is close to impossible.
Note that when I mention desktop I mean the whole Win32 subsystem, which is for instance not present in Windows Phone at all. Just disabling the desktop by means of removing the icon to show it, is trivial though. But technically the desktop would be still there.
It is also the reason we have printer drivers and other kernel mode drivers, where large portions of the desktop subsystem is a prerequisite.
It is also the reason we have a fully scriptable environment like PowerShell.
It is also the reason we have the full .net 4.5 framework.
It is also the reason we have full NTFS access with all user control on file level (e.g. ACLs)
It is the reason we have file and printer sharing services.
etc.

The greatest reason why I believe that Microsoft will remove the desktop from RT devices is because of their near-perfect track record of doing the exact opposite of what I want them to do

*sigh* how true.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

I don't think so. You have to distinguish between owners of RT devices and people just posting here. Among the owners, people who want the desktop be gone is the absolute minority.

The comments here and my first-hand experience with fellow RT owners are different than your experiences and I won't use them to attempt to invalidate your experiences. Suffice it to say, that the desirability of the desktop on RT isn't as universal as you indicate.

Having said that, one of the problems I have with Microsoft has been their failure to send a clear and consistent message with and through the entire Surface line. Their failure to stick with something and follow through generates a general lack of confidence in Microsoft's commitment.

A year ago when Microsoft unveiled the Surface 2, they also showcased "blades". None of those ever made it to public availability and never to be mentioned again. That's just one example.

 

[John Steffes]

That's an odd statement. Everyone that I've interacted with dislikes the desktop. I'm the lone oddball who believes that the Desktop is a BENEFIT of the RT devices. Look at the comments on this forum over the past year and you'll find that I'm virtually the only defender of the desktop on Windows RT.

I am an owner of a Surface RT 64G, and want the Desktop to stay...

That effort has already been expended. It's not publicly available, but a desktop-less version of Windows 8.x/10 exists.

I have never seen it or heard it mentioned by any Microsoft Rep, but they do not always know everything either.

Although I want to see the desktop exploited MORE on Windows RT devices, I can see Microsoft wanting to further differentiate between the RT and Pro devices. (assuming that the RT devices will be around)

I agree I want more options in the Desktop mode, if Windows 10 options come, like Windowed App Store Apps (Immersive Shell Apps), cut/paste functionality between Desktop/Immersive Apps, Start Menu as well as Start Screen, more driver compatibility and allow users to have a powershell IME, or even better yet have Visual Studio as an App, more Office Apps like Visio and Publisher....

The greatest reason why I believe that Microsoft will remove the desktop from RT devices is because of their near-perfect track record of doing the exact opposite of what I want them to do. :grincry:

So True...

I don't think so. You have to distinguish between owners of RT devices and people just posting here. Among the owners, people who want the desktop be gone is the absolute minority.

I agree I know as an owner I want the Desktop to stay...

That is close to impossible.
Note that when I mention desktop I mean the whole Win32 subsystem, which is for instance not present in Windows Phone at all. Just disabling the desktop by means of removing the icon to show it, is trivial though. But technically the desktop would be still there.
It is also the reason we have printer drivers and other kernel mode drivers, where large portions of the desktop subsystem is a prerequisite.
It is also the reason we have a fully scriptable environment like PowerShell.
It is also the reason we have the full .net 4.5 framework.
It is also the reason we have full NTFS access with all user control on file level (e.g. ACLs)
It is the reason we have file and printer sharing services.
etc.

I agree the Win32s give Windows RT so much power, I would hate that to go away... Again if I wanted a Android or iOS device, I would have bought one, I wanted a Windows Experience, with Office and File and Print the same way on my Desktop as on my tablet...

The comments here and my first-hand experience with fellow RT owners are different than your experiences and I won't use them to attempt to invalidate your experiences. Suffice it to say, that the desirability of the desktop on RT isn't as universal as you indicate.

I do not understand why someone would purchase a Windows Tablet and want an Android or iOS experience... But if Microsoft wants to make something like that as long as they make options for us who don't then Windows tablets will be the one place everyone can be happy...

Having said that, one of the problems I have with Microsoft has been their failure to send a clear and consistent message with and through the entire Surface line. Their failure to stick with something and follow through generates a general lack of confidence in Microsoft's commitment.

I could not agree more, don't blog well the accessories for the Surface Pro 3 will work on the next generation device... Video, it, make a commercial, talk about, Advertise it. They need to be more open about their plans, otherwise users/consumer/business will look elsewhere...

A year ago when Microsoft unveiled the Surface 2, they also showcased "blades". None of those ever made it to public availability and never to be mentioned again. That's just one example.

The only blades sort of released is the Surface Remix Project and that is only like 500 units, which end up on eBay or Amazon...

I agree, and they never made a Touch Cover or Power Cover for the Surface Pro 3... Why?

They seem to cancel things to fast on the PC side, they let Microsoft Bob last longer...

 

[a5cent]

I'd also appreciate an answer to this question. IMHO this is an issue MS should have published a roadmap for months ago.

Anyway, MS basically has three options:

1. provide Windows 10 RT (with the desktop and desktop Office for ARM).
2. allow Surface RT owners to update to Windows 10 Mobile (without Win32, without the desktop but including touch Office)
3. provide no update path at all.

I think (1) is possible but highly unlikely, as MS has already made it clear they don't intend to build any more Windows RT devices. I think (2) is far more probable, as it's closer to MS' original vision for RT, although the lack of a desktop would upset some. I think most wouldn't miss anything, provided touch Office is a fully featured replacement for desktop Office on ARM. Option (2) is what I'm hoping for, but I wouldn't rule out option (3) either, and the longer Redmond remains silent the less surprised I'll be if that's what happens.

 

[Cruncher04]

I think (a) is possible but highly unlikely, as MS has already made it clear they don't intend to build any more Windows RT devices.

Do you have a link to such statement. I cannot remember Microsoft mentioning anything close into this direction. I don't talk about rumours spread by some 3rd class blog.

By the way a) is the only viable upgrade option. No one wants to have Windows Phone/Mobile on the tablet, in particular no Surface owners and loosing literally hundreds of features. In addition a) is the least effort route, as it does not create a 3rd OS branch in between Windows and Windows Phone.

Further Microsoft vision for Windows RT has been always Windows for ARM and not any dumbed down experience like Windows Phone.

Finally touch office is no replacement for desktop office. It lacks in features and is much less desirable on large screen with mouse. It is an addition in the best case.

 

[rmeigs]

The comments here and my first-hand experience with fellow RT owners are different than your experiences and I won't use them to attempt to invalidate your experiences. Suffice it to say, that the desirability of the desktop on RT isn't as universal as you indicate.

JeepMan, my experience with RT owners is the same as yours -- few want or use the desktop.

That includes me. I see no reason for it. If I had software that needed the desktop, I'd get a Pro version. That being said, until MS comes out with Metro versions of Office and their tools, we are stuck with a desktop.

 

[jhoff80]

I think most wouldn't miss anything, provided touch Office is a fully featured replacement for desktop Office on ARM.

Obviously we don't know this for sure, but from the hints they showed of Office Touch in the web video a week or so ago, it's going to be more akin to the iPad's version of Office. And the one WinRT Office app that we do have already (OneNote) is garbage compared to its desktop counterpart. So I'm not holding my breath on that. I do think that your scenario of ARM Surface (Windows 8.1) devices having an update to a desktop-less Windows 10 is what's most likely to happen though.