Out Of The "Blue"

[anon(6078578)]

Looks like I was right to be skeptical:

Hyped "ground breaking" WhartonBrooks Windows Phone really just the Coship Moly X1 and Coship Moly PCPhone - MSPoweruser

Sure it's always good to have another Windows Mobile Phone on the market, but it's just a tad over hyped don't yah think?

 

[RumoredNow]

I strongly suspected this will be a Cerulean badged Coship early on. I didn't say anything as it isn't my news to break and there was always the chance that people will want to spin it as a negative.

However, I'm not ruling out a Firmware touch just yet. Listen to podcast #2 on SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/whartonbrooks/e002-cerulean-mobile-where-is-the-wizard

I'm not sure what's to be skeptical about. It's still a US company taking an interest in the platform. I feel they will be more active than BLU ever was and hopefully they can start steering the design for future orders. Look, they have to get their foot in the door somehow. White label allows them to do so while they gather capital and experience.

I'm still for it and plan to follow this along. Rome was not built in a day. What other American company is going to offer a W10M handset this year?

I knew all along BLU wasn't building their own phones in Miami and it never stopped me from purchasing their product, twice.

 

[RumoredNow]

Also, having sampled the Coship Moly W5, I can say they have a solid design and build. My W5 feels more sturdy than any phone I have handled in recent memory.

Check my review: http://forums.windowscentral.com/coship-moly-w5/433404-[user-reviews]-coship-moly-w5.html

 

[anon(6078578)]

I strongly suspected this will be a Cerulean badged Coship early on. I didn't say anything as it isn't my news to break and there was always the chance that people will want to spin it as a negative.

However, I'm not ruling out a Firmware touch just yet. Listen to podcast #2 on SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/whartonbrooks/e002-cerulean-mobile-where-is-the-wizard

I'm not sure what's to be skeptical about. It's still a US company taking an interest in the platform. I feel they will be more active than BLU ever was and hopefully they can start steering the design for future orders. Look, they have to get their foot in the door somehow. White label allows them to do so while they gather capital and experience.

I'm still for it and plan to follow this along. Rome was not built in a day. What other American company is going to offer a W10M handset this year?

I knew all along BLU wasn't building their own phones in Miami and it never stopped me from purchasing their product, twice.

Skeptical as in them saying it is ground breaking and disruptive. I'm sure it's a great phone but why the over the top hype? It just sets peoples expectations unrealistically high. I do agree though that having more companies that come on board can only be a good thing for the platform.

 

[RumoredNow]

I'm sure it's a great phone but why the over the top hype?

Maybe they have used a lot of hyperbole... Look at Apple and Samsung. They do the same and people eat it up.

Many loyalists complain about the lack of effective advertising for the platform. IMHO, they didn't go so far as the "Courage" Apple displayed in removing the 3.5mm headphone jack. :winktongue:

 

[DustinRyan]

Was I the only one who thought the photos used were just stock photos available for free use? I don't doubt which phones are pictured, but I think they are just using them as phone placeholders so you know what kind of biz they are in, not actually revealing the phone before they actually reveal it.

If they can't say anything because of an NDA, yet, then I doubt they could show the phone so candidly. Just my initial reaction, though. I don't exactly have any inside scoop. Just observing.

 

[RumoredNow]

It's a nice thought, Dustin...

But those are definitely Coship phones in the images and I believe there would be legal trouble lifting and using those pics if that wasn't the phone they are going to offer.

Coship has been a white label maker in the past, before they became a Microsoft Partner in 2015. The Funker W5.5 on sale in Spain is a rebadged Coship Moly X1 with a different back so Coship is still making white label phones.

At this point it looks like Cerulean will be using an ODM and they may have Firmware up their sleeve (my speculation from listening to them on SoundCloud) that will help differentiate them from Moly. Their press indicates this is just the beginning and they want to move forward with a hand in design and spec selection.

And again, this doesn't dampen my excitement. I like the way Coship builds phones.

 

[DustinRyan]

I don't know a lot about Coship, but it seems a bit weird to tease a super secret phone, but have a picture of it staring you down in their social media pics. Again, I know nothing, but just seems a bit weird to have hype about something secret that's already visible?

But I definitely agree someone else is building the phones. No way would anyone have the balls to do it in the US, especially Connecticut. Things here are expensive as crap. Labor is not cheap here. And I never expected it. I mean, it's not like any other big manufacturer builds phones here.

But to be any kind of phone company these days, you need to have a really, REALLY good thing to stand apart from the rest. So maybe I'm too optimistic that they have something else up their sleeve. Because we have seen so many companies come and go over the years. It's a tough biz to compete in. Too tough for mediocrity. So I guess I'm just desperately hoping they are doing something worthwhile.

 

[RumoredNow]

Crawl > Walk > Run > Fly

I believe the crawling took 2 years and now they are ready to walk. I can't wait to see what they bring to run with in the future. Hopefully we can get something that flies on its own and flies off the shelves by putting some community support behind them.

 

[DustinRyan]

Totally agree. The hard part about crawling is when something is "not good enough" most people don't buy, and then there's no funding left to walk, run, fly.

Like you said, if the community can support it and keep the funding alive for a second and third round, I think there's hope.

As long as WhartonBrooks/Cerulean try to make a real impact instead of just try to be cool because they have their name on a phone, I have hopes.

 

[Paolo Ferrazza]

If you market it as somethin that will fly it will be hard to sell it since it only walks. Overhyping is one thing, selling vaporware is another thing. Don't get me wrong I like the MolyPCphone and the more the merrier but they look BLU all over again as I said...i.e. decent phones with no way to gain any market.

 

[RumoredNow]

Don't forget to subtract the oversaturation of Lumia from the equation.

The hill is not as tall as it was (less market share since the 2014 high water mark) nor as steep without all the Lumia models crowding each price point.

I think this is a smart move. Coship is in China; Cerulean gives them a US presence. This is still a desirable market for any OEM. If they can drive a device into the consciousness of the consumer here, it is a win.

Overhyping is one thing, selling vaporware is another thing.

I've got to respectfully disagree about the overhype. If it is the PcPhone with a Cerulean badge (and I'm convinced it is), then it does match what the WhartonBrooks press put forward.

• Continuum is a disruptive tech - one transformative device to fit your comm and productivity needs across screen sizes is not new, but hasn't been backed by such a powerhouse as Msft until now. It really is an attempt to shift the paradigm.
• As a 1520 user I can see this as a worthy sidegrade or even an upgrade in some key aspects. It isn't the 950 XL or the Elite X3. I will take a loss in camera vs 1520 and likely loose SensorCore, Glance, DTtW. But I gain Continuum, USB dual role, Type C, faster charging, faster LTE, faster CPU, enhanced GPU, more RAM, more modern GPS, more modern SD support... And the screen should be the same as the 1520. I love the screen on the 1520 and PcPhone has the same size and tech. Side by side with Lumia 640 and Moly W5 the only difference was Lumia Color/Brightness Profiles and... I didn't miss them, Coship dialed the display in very nicely for color reproduction. The W5 won my respect for display. Coship appears to be licensing the display differentiators that Lumia used: ClearBlack being among them. Coship has impressed me with tight, solid build quality as well. If Cerulean is using Coship to build their device and Coship is using Cerulean to market and distribute to the US - I see it as a good thing. I'm left willing it to hurry up and get here. It promises to be worth the hype: an attractive and well built device with a great display and performance under the hood.
• I've used BLU. Twice. The Win HD and the Win HD LTE. They were nice, but having tried a Moly, I'm more impressed with the latter. The BLU phones came and went as backups. One poor compromise on the BLU phones was the screen The Moly W5 is my backup now. I jilted my Lumia 640 for it and that replaced a Win HD LTE. If the Cerulean is the phone we now believe it is going to be, I can see it becoming my daily and I can retire my 1520 to dedicated camera duty. That's my level of excitement to see this come to market.
• Vaporware may be going too far. I believe this is going to materialize. The NuAns Neo had me excited. Very similar spec. It's a shame it couldn't jump the Pacific and come here, but it always looked doubful. This looks like a done deal to me. I want a phone in exactly this class. Many consumers do. The Superphones (Elite X3, 950 XL {even though the price has dropped}, Acer Jade Primo and the much rumored Alcatel Idol 4 Pro) are priced too high to entice as many users as they should in order to push the disruption of Continuum out there with more casual users. I'll use Continuum in a less hardcore way so I don't want to pay too heavy a premium for it. And that's my only true worry here. They need to have an attractive price point to push this out to Joe Checkoutmyphone.

[/rant]

 

[DustinRyan]

It's pretty tough to stand out. I don't think Continuum is enough to bolster Windows phones. I think it's an AWESOME tech, but working in phone sales, I can tell you no one in America would know this stuff or care about it (and some might actually not have a functional use for it based on their needs). It's hard enough for anyone who isn't Samsung or Apple to get any kind of attention in a store.

Best selling phones for Verizon are the iPhone and GS7 (obviously) but close third place are a couple low end phones. The Galaxy J3v6 comes to mind. A sweet little phone. Perfect for first smartphone or a worthy cheap upgrade to Galaxy SIII and 4 as well.

Most of my customers never heard of HTC. Some have never even heard that LG makes phones.

It is a very tough market to break into. I think if Cerulean wants to have any success, they definitely picked a smart choice by going for business instead of consumer. At least for now.

But, being an unknown brand on an unpopular platform is even harder. I give any company a LOT of credit for trying. I have hope.

But there are some solid OEMs out there for Windows phones, the problem for most is that the future of Windows on mobile has always been iffy and I think the lack of polish on Windows 10 Mobile has hurt even my own outlook for the future of the platform.

But I still have hope. The consumer deserves another option. I wish more people rooted for OEMs the way they think to buy food local or support the underdog sports team. It would help take away some of the big corporate powers companies like Apple have over manipulating their customers.

Sorry, I'm all over the place, tonight. But it's good to have you guys to talk to. It helps me think out loud (but in text).

 

[tgp]

I think it's an AWESOME tech, but working in phone sales, I can tell you no one in America would know this stuff or care about it (and some might actually not have a functional use for it based on their needs).

I'm always curious what is oberved by those working in phone sales. It is hard to get a straight answer!

1. Do you work for a carrier?
2. Do you have Windows Phones available to sell? If so, which models?
3. If you work for a carrier and sell Windows Phones, does the carrier seem to have a preference over which model phones are sold?
4. Does anyone ask for a Windows Phone?
5. Based on what you see at your store, what would you say is Windows Phone's real time market share?
6. Do customers come in asking for a certain phone, such as an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy S7?
7. If you do sell Windows Phones, do you see the higher return rates that are claimed? If so, are they generally returned because of issues with the phone or because of dissatisfaction by the customer?
8. Do you get kickbacks for certain phones?

I understand that you may not be able to answer any or all of these questions, but I would be interested in any information you can provide.

 

[Paolo Ferrazza]

Vaporware

Waporware as in "we are creating a revolutionary product" nad then they just rebrand an existing phone

Two other points:
-(My) Lumia 950 can now be found for around 250€, a collegue of mine bought a 950XL for 299€ the other day...try and compete with that
-So their added value (except for the firmware rumor) should be marketing and penetration in the US market, well, they can't even harmonize their logo and their social profiles and the website looks terrible... They should at least create a modern looking html5 site and stick to the cerulean logo everywhere for brand recognition.

 

[DustinRyan]

I'm always curious what is oberved by those working in phone sales. It is hard to get a straight answer!

1. Do you work for a carrier?
2. Do you have Windows Phones available to sell? If so, which models?
3. If you work for a carrier and sell Windows Phones, does the carrier seem to have a preference over which model phones are sold?
4. Does anyone ask for a Windows Phone?
5. Based on what you see at your store, what would you say is Windows Phone's real time market share?
6. Do customers come in asking for a certain phone, such as an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy S7?
7. If you do sell Windows Phones, do you see the higher return rates that are claimed? If so, are they generally returned because of issues with the phone or because of dissatisfaction by the customer?
8. Do you get kickbacks for certain phones?

I understand that you may not be able to answer any or all of these questions, but I would be interested in any information you can provide.

I'll answer as best as I can!
-I work for one of "The Big 6" retailers for Verizon.

-We do sell Windows Phones, but Verizon doesn't release many (as you know). We actually stocked the Lumia 822, 928, and Icon, but all were not popular. When I was a rep, I sold all of the Windows phones in my store. Never had a return. But I think only about 4-5 times in my career has anyone besides myself ever asked for one. The Icon was the last phone we stocked, and that lasted about 7-8 months before they were sent back for recall to be liquidated. Unfortunately.

-Carrier does not have preference (in my case, Verizon). Verizon has never given me any reason to believe they favor one over another. I will say the profit margins on Android and Windows are way higher than Apple phones, but Verizon, like all carriers, know that Apple pretty much owns them. They need Apple to survive in America. But Apple doesn't need carriers.

-I had someone ask for a Windows Phone the other day, but only because she said her husband was "talked into getting this phone I never heard of from AT&T" and she wanted to know if other stores sold that phone. It was a Lumia 640, I believe. She never said, but based on the description she gave me, that's my assumption. I also met a few other customers who are diehard Windows fans like us, but it is an extreme rarity.

-I can't give a good measure based on all carriers, but for Verizon, it's definitely below 1%. Mostly because Windows Phones are not a priority, but that's not all Verizon's fault. MS is taking the year off, so we haven't been stocking ANY Windows Phones for quite some time. Haven't had one in stock since beginning of 2015. Anything released on Verizon since then has been special order only at my stores. Other retailers might have one or two in stock, but I doubt any Verizon store carries more than 1 Verizon phone in stock at a time "just in case." And the 1 phone is probably a Lumia 735. It is the most recent one to release on Verizon.

-I'd say most customers come in asking for iPhone or Samsung. There's also a large demographic of elderly people getting their first smartphone or who have old old old smartphones that finally gave up trying to work and the elderly finally admitted they will use their 6 year old upgrade. They usually opt for the cheapest phone. And these days, the cheap phones are still solid. Not a good camera or display, but runs all the same software and still feels pretty sleek. Popular phone right now is the Galaxy J3v6 (say that 5 times fast). It sounds weird, but a really solid upgrade for anyone on a Galaxy SIII or S4. And only $7/month on a device payment. But old people even recognize Samsung and Apple. But they don't like the price of the expensive phones. Kids all want Apple. Adults are split between Apple and Samsung. Elderly are mostly iPhone SE or cheap LG K8 or Samsung Galaxy J3v6. So yeah, Apple and Samsung. But Samsung does a great job of offering devices at every price level. I give them credit for that. Same for LG. But the rest, harder sell. No one knows HTC, unfortunately. But to be fair, HTC isn't doing themselves any favors. I went to a conference with my company and HTC was trying to wow us and pretty much said "yeah our new phone HTC 10 is not as good as the Galaxy S7, but you should buy it to support the underdog!" which I totally understand, but that won't win over customers with no loyalty. They want good. If you say your product isn't as good, people are less likely to buy. I could go on for ages, but I'll stop rambling on that answer.

-I don't think I've ever had a Windows Phone returned to me, but I'm pretty good at telling whether a customer can deal with an OS change or not. Same goes for people who have Apple wanting to try Samsung or vice versa. You gotta feel it out. And also put your wants aside and listen to what the customer truly wants. I try not to push my agenda for Windows World Domination, haha. But the common things I hear from customers who have Windows Phones are that they don't understand it. Their kids told them it is too difficult to learn and they should have bought iPhone. Never heard of the phone but bought it because it was cheap. Want to buy a case but we don't have any for it. Want to upgrade to iPhone or Galaxy for next phone. Friends/family show them a feature on their iPhone/Galaxy and they want to know how to do it, too.

-Could you elaborate on what you mean by kickback?

Sorry, really long winded response. But always glad to answer questions about the wireless industry!

Waporware as in "we are creating a revolutionary product" nad then they just rebrand an existing phone

Two other points:
-(My) Lumia 950 can now be found for around 250€, a collegue of mine bought a 950XL for 299€ the other day...try and compete with that
-So their added value (except for the firmware rumor) should be marketing and penetration in the US market, well, they can't even harmonize their logo and their social profiles and the website looks terrible... They should at least create a modern looking html5 site and stick to the cerulean logo everywhere for brand recognition.

Agreed their site and social media are on totally different wavelengths. I hope as development progresses they revamp things. Also, the Cerulean logo reminds me quite a bit of Thunderbird logo from Mozilla. Just the concept and art style. Similar to Firefox as well with art style, not with animal, obviously.

 

[tgp]

Thank you very much; I appreciate you taking the time to write out very precise, detailed replies! This is exactly the type of response I was hoping for.

-Could you elaborate on what you mean by kickback?

By "kickback" I mean SPIFF (Sales Promotion Incentive Fund or Special Payment Incentive for Fast Sales. Yeah I know they do not exactly fit but that's what it is.) or a bonus paid by the vendor directly to the salesman. I work in IT, and in some cases our salesmen are eligible for a SPIFF from a vendor such as HP for selling HP equipment. The SPIFF is designed to go directly to the salesmen, not to their employer. Obviously there is likely to be more interest by the salesman to sell it if he gets the money. He doesn't profit directly if the bonus goes to the company.

 

[DustinRyan]

Thank you very much; I appreciate you taking the time to write out very precise, detailed replies! This is exactly the type of response I was hoping for.



By "kickback" I mean SPIFF (Sales Promotion Incentive Fund or Special Payment Incentive for Fast Sales. Yeah I know they do not exactly fit but that's what it is.) or a bonus paid by the vendor directly to the salesman. I work in IT, and in some cases our salesmen are eligible for a SPIFF from a vendor such as HP for selling HP equipment. The SPIFF is designed to go directly to the salesmen, not to their employer. Obviously there is likely to be more interest by the salesman to sell it if he gets the money. He doesn't profit directly if the bonus goes to the company.

Yes there are spiffs. Spiffs are usually on devices that have been sitting in inventory too long or have the propensity to not move, so there are extra incentives to remember to sell those devices, too. It does not typically influence anyone to push a product no one wants just for a $10-$30 bonus. But is helpful to remind us to bring those devices into conversation for someone who is open to what their choices are for a new device. They are typically seen on devices that do not move out the door as quickly, or have a high gross profit, so the company can afford to give a little extra incentive to the rep for selling a particular device. The spiffs change every few weeks or so. Samsung and Apple phones typically don't have a spiff unless they are end of life and desperate to get the units out of inventory to make room for a big phone launch. For example, iPhone 6 has a spiff (which is totally new for my company. They never used to do that) because there are so many colors and storage sizes for each iPhone, to stock a number of every kind takes up a LOT of space. So they are trying to make room for new models, and make sure the old ones don't collect dust and cost us money to just leave sitting there as the price drops (which also drops profit). That's about as much as I can say without getting too specific. But I think you get the idea.

 

[BMT001]

Thanks Dustin for being so candid. Very interesting stuff. Nice to see people that are passionate and informed about the business they are in.

 

[DustinRyan]

And I do want to say, as far as Verizon goes, they never play favorites when communicating with the front lines. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors--I know as much as you do about Microsoft's turbulent relationship with Verizon--but in any communications I've had, they have been fair about all operating systems and OEMs as far as marketing.

There haven't really been any Windows Phones to get excited about, and none releasing on Verizon in a long time, so nothing has been promoted in quite a while, understandably.

As far as reps go, THOSE are the ones who play favorites. I make sure my team understands all operating systems and is fair to them. But you'll see many will never promote Windows Phones or mention them because of one of the following reasons:
-unfamiliar with WP, so they don't know how to support or help customers with it and don't want to come off as unknowledgeable.
-thinks it sucks because they have heard it is "difficult to learn" and other myths from other uninformed people.
-people think "Windows" and think "viruses" and think that it is just like a desktop PC--confusing and full of viruses--all myths.

Reps will usually stick to promoting what they use, which is typically iPhone and Android. The stores I have worked in and teams I have managed have typically been mostly iPhone users, but my current store is all Android except for 1 person who has an iPhone. And of course I have Windows.

Sorry to hijack this thread and take it off topic. But to kinda bring all of this home, I do want to say that I think Cerulean Mobile has a tough task ahead. Availability is tough. Now, the interesting thing about phones these days is that you don't really need a carrier to promote it. Some phones are very successful through word of mouth online and through the OEM. Companies like Verizon don't need to be the ones to bring it into the conversation. HOWEVER, it does certainly help. Especially for a brand no one has heard of. It's hard enough to sell HTC phones, and they have had some great successes over the years until recently. So for a brand new name to jump in, it isn't easy.

I think the best thing Cerulean can do for themselves is start local. Promote themselves as a local CT business. As a CT resident, myself, I love nothing more than supporting small businesses here. If they can get word out to the people of CT, maybe there is a chance.

Secondly, Cerulean Mobile. WhartonBrooks. What do we call this thing? It is difficult with a company and a brand. There needs to be one face for this phone company. Not two. The message needs to be clear and easy to digest for everyone. As someone mentioned earlier, the website is also abysmal. It is responsive--great--but needs to be functional. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, considering they have nothing to show yet and as of right now appear to have gone dark.

Lastly, Windows Phone has such a huge climb ahead. Some of this might be out of Cerulean's hands, to be quite honest. Unfortunately, Windows Phone has a stigma attached to it as I mentioned above about reps not even wanting to touch it because of their unfamiliarity. I want to be optimistic, after all, I do use a Windows Phone, still. But the reality is, the other OSes do have support and some features Windows still does not have. And many have chosen their brand loyalty. Microsoft might just be too late to the party. And with how glitch and tedious Windows 10 Mobile has been (at least in my experiences and my family), Cerulean can't do much to change that on their own. Some of this will need to be Microsoft's responsibility.

Sorry, long post. Woops