RAW Capture Support Lacking..What Nokia can do.

[anon(7901790)]

I'm not sure how many other people this applies to, but it seems to me that the Nokia has some work to do to support the PureView cameras on its phones. For example, Nokia now has four devices that are capable of capturing images at over 20MP. The Lumia 1020 (41MP), 808 (41MP), Lumia 1520 (20MP), and Lumia Icon (20MP). Each of these cameras (at least the 1020, 1520, and Icon) can capture images using RAW capture.

Where did Nokia not follow through very well? Well?once you take a picture using RAW capture, you can?t do anything with it on phone. You have to download them to your Windows or Mac desktop or laptop PC to do anything with the RAW files.

Why is this? Well?Since, Nokia is predominately a cellular phone maker, and not a camera maker like Canon or Nikon, the designers and engineers are thinking like cell phone makers. They put a really good camera on a phone, then essentially said, ?Ok. We?re done.? If Nokia really wants to leverage its ability to make smartphones with REALLY good cameras in them, they should look to the DSLR industry for some ideas. Furthermore, it?s only been about a year or so, since smartphones have gained RAW capture capability and the majority of the users probably don?t know what kind of potential they have in their pockets. At least not yet.

So what?s the problem? Well, you can only edit the 5MP ?lowres? JPGs on phone. There is absolutely no post capture on phone RAW support. Zip?zilch?nada. There are not even any third party apps in the Windows Phone store that are RAW processing capable. Even Adobe Photoshop Express, which is coming to WP this year, is not RAW capable.

This oversight allows you to capture images using RAW capture, but you can't do anything with them post capture; unless you have a third party RAW processor. All DSLR makers provide a RAW processing application with all of their products. Furthermore, those applications are optimized to work with their cameras; for Canon it is Digital Photo Professional, and ViewNX for Nikon. And there are several third party apps like Lightroom, Aperture, Capture One, etc.

If Nokia were to make its Creative Studio RAW capable, that alleviate the non-RAW processing problem. Especially since it could be done on phone post capture. Creative Studio has several filters and other options that can be applied to JPGs. Incorporating RAW processing into Creative Studio would let users edit the RAW image on camera and apply the filters from Creative Studio. Additionally, they could add noise reduction, sharpening, and many other tools that RAW image processors possess. And since RAW is a non-destructive standard, it would allow the user to do the edits without fear of destroying the original image. Then once they are satisfied with the results, they can then save the image as a JPG, TIFF, PNG, etc., or share the image via whatever means the users chooses; whether it be Facebook, Instagram, MMS?.it wouldn?t matter.

Another thing Nokia can do, is make a desktop and tablet version of its Creative Studio app; with initial support for Windows and Windows RT devices, and Mac OS. That would be good for those of us who would like to edit images on a nice big (in my case 27?) monitor using a Wacom graphics pad. Not only would this make buying a Nokia phone more enticing, it would have the same benefits that DSLR users get by using a RAW processing app optimized for its cameras. It would also be really useful for users who don't have Lightroom or Aperture. Now they don't have to shell out a bunch of money for a RAW image processing app. When you buy a Nokia phone you get the Nokia Creative Studio app for free. Thereby saving people money.

Will super high resolution smart phone cameras replace DSLRs? Not yet, if ever. However, being a Canon EOS 6D user, I can see how having a smart phone with a 20MP camera that is capable of RAW capture can be useful and more practical in certain cases. I get excellent image quality without having to lug around a DSLR with a lens around. Especially, in places where DSLR cameras are not always allowed or not practical. Like certain sports or music events or out driving or hiking and I come across an excellent photo opportunity.

Hopefully somebody from Nokia or maybe Microsoft will read this and go, ?Hmmm? He?s got a good point. Let?s see what we can do.?

Of course, these are some thoughts that I have. I know there are other users who have some excellent ideas about how Nokia could better support its PureView cameras.

 

[anon(7900571)]

I appreciate what you said above but I have some doubts
if nokia ever develops such app for windows 8 or mac will it be equal to what adobe offers ? (I would personally still prefer adobe )
if they develop one for Lumia , it might run swiftly on 1520 and icon but what about Lumia 1020 , its still on a dual core , though it has 2 GB ram
I wish they update creative studio with raw support , at current it loads jpeg file and while saving it compresses the image file
they should add raw file support in nokia camera sdk so as other developers can take advantage of the same , good point
lastly you said at some area dslr aren't allowed , I would say they are bulky to carry
I am waiting for nokia event on 2nd April :smile:

 

[N_LaRUE]

Though I'm not going to 100% disagree with you I will however point out a few issues.

First problem you have is that the image files for RAW images are typically very large. Processing them on a smartphone wouldn't be very efficient, regardless how powerful the CPU.

Second, from what experience I have, most photographers who use RAW images tend to be very pedantic about them and want to use the best software. No phone software will ever match a computer program for processing RAW images.

Third problem you currently have is that Nokia is currently the only OEM to provide this kind of thing on their phones so most app developers won't be interested in making an app for it. Maybe Nokia will come up with something but really processing RAW on a phone is like I said a bit pointless.

Since you own a DSLR you know that no camera has an 'app' for processing the image file on the camera, why would you expect the same on a smartphone? Simply because you can run apps? Most people who take photos with their phone are posting to Instagram or Facebook. The RAW image thing is more niche than the L1020.

So, even though I agree with you to some extent I think your expectations of what a smartphone should do is a bit excessive.

Also, if you want a free editor with RAW capabilities you can use Google Picasa.

 

[anon(7901790)]

I appreciate what you said above but I have some doubts
if nokia ever develops such app for windows 8 or mac will it be equal to what adobe offers ? (I would personally still prefer adobe )
if they develop one for Lumia , it might run swiftly on 1520 and icon but what about Lumia 1020 , its still on a dual core , though it has 2 GB ram
I wish they update creative studio with raw support , at current it loads jpeg file and while saving it compresses the image file
they should add raw file support in nokia camera sdk so as other developers can take advantage of the same , good point
lastly you said at some area dslr aren't allowed , I would say they are bulky to carry
I am waiting for nokia event on 2nd April :smile:

That would depend I guess, how much they put into it. But, as long as it did the what all RAW processors do and it is free, it would be a good alternative. Not everybody can fork out $199 or more for a flagship app like Lightroom or Aperture. You do have some good points about how well it would work on phone. But Nokia could optimize it to run well. It's their app on their device. Look how much success Apple has with its software/hardware match up.

Yes. I've been to events that would not let me take my DSLR in. They were afraid of people taking high quality images and then selling them. And there are times where having a DSLR was cumbersome and not practical to lug around, or is too conspicuous, meaning the chance of being stolen is higher than normal.

 

[anon(7901790)]

Though I'm not going to 100% disagree with you I will however point out a few issues.

First problem you have is that the image files for RAW images are typically very large. Processing them on a smartphone wouldn't be very efficient, regardless how powerful the CPU.

Second, from what experience I have, most photographers who use RAW images tend to be very pedantic about them and want to use the best software. No phone software will ever match a computer program for processing RAW images.

Third problem you currently have is that Nokia is currently the only OEM to provide this kind of thing on their phones so most app developers won't be interested in making an app for it. Maybe Nokia will come up with something but really processing RAW on a phone is like I said a bit pointless.

Since you own a DSLR you know that no camera has an 'app' for processing the image file on the camera, why would you expect the same on a smartphone? Simply because you can run apps? Most people who take photos with their phone are posting to Instagram or Facebook. The RAW image thing is more niche than the L1020.

So, even though I agree with you to some extent I think your expectations of what a smartphone should do is a bit excessive.

Also, if you want a free editor with RAW capabilities you can use Google Picasa.

Yes. You are correct about RAW images. We're talking 20MB DNGs from the Icon. The 1020 and 808 are even bigger. That does require a bit of CPU power, but people underestimate the CPU capacity of smartphones. Nokia and other phone makers are shipping phones with quad core (and even eight core) processors and several of them are more powerful than my Dell desktop. The biggest limiting factor for phones is RAM, storage, and screen size. The first two are continually improving. I expect to see in the next year or two, phones with 4GB of RAM. I don't see a huge increase of storage though as Google, Microsoft, and Apple are pushing cloud storage so heavily.

Yes, photographers are rather picky and we each have our favorite apps. But, photographers always find ways to integrate new technology into their workflows. You also have to factor in the next generation of photographers. How do they use technology? They also tend to be more accepting of new ways of doing things. Photography has evolved since the digital camera was invented and smartphones are on the leading edge of that evolutionary process.

Yes. DSLRs don't do on camera post processing. THAT is the advantage of smartphones. Sure, I could shoot in highres MPG mode, but RAW allows me to take a mediocre picture and make it exceptional. Simple exposure, contrast, or white balance fixes, that aren't practical with JPGs. And yes, RAW capture is niche... for now... But Google is also incorporating RAW capture support in Android. So, I predict within the next year you'll see Android phones with RAW capture capability.

Do I have high expectations? Sure! And that is what is drives us or should drive us. Why settle for, "Ok", when I can have, "Holy s$%! This is awesome!"

And just like in the movie, "Field of Dreams." - "If you build it, they will come."

 

[nasellok]

I just want the option to save 16mp files only on the Icon - I don't really care for the .DNG format, im too lazy to bother with post processing - if I need to do serious photography, ill take my DSLR with me. On the other hand, I don't understand why I am forced to save both low res 5mp + high res 16mp .JPG files at the same time. I have no need for the low res images. I have unlimited data, and really could care less about them. I have to open Pocket file manager, and manually delete all of the low res images. To make matters worse, the high resolution images don't auto-upload to Onedrive, so I have to manually push them via. copy/paste in pocket file manager - and Nokia's own apps wont recognize the 16mp files - specifically the Storyteller app . Hopefully 8.1 changes this - its my only gripe with the OS, but it is a hefty annoying one.

 

[Doug MacKay1]

Hi Timothy,

RAW processing would be kind of cool, but I tend to agree whit the others that is is most likely something to be done on a PC. Even if you could process teh RAW on the phone, what would you do with the resulting image? Probably move it to the PC for storage and use anyway. I suppose you could do RAW processing to create a really awesome facebook pic, but that seems like a fairly low use case scenario.

What caught my attention in this thread is the questions about in camera RAW processing for DSLR's, or the lack thereof. I recently purchased the Fuji X-E1. Great little camera. It captures RAW, but it also allows you to do in-camera RAW processing. As a purist, I dumped several RAW images into PhotoShop and fiddled for hours on the PC, but could never even match the quality of the companion JPEGs. So I put the RAW files back in the camera and created some stunning results in about 10 minutes. Funny.

So to come full circle, maybe a purpose built in phone app would not be too bad of an idea. Although you have to think the number of actual users would be very small.

Doug M.

 

[anon(7901790)]

@nasellokm - You are absolutely correct. Having a 16MP highres AND a 5MP lowres simultaneously saved is very inefficient. If you are in JPG capture mode only, why have a 5MP version? I wish I had the ability to save in DNG ONLY. Of course, that would mean, Nokia would have to add native RAW support to its Photos app. That was one of the reasons that led me to write this thread. RAW support just seems like it was added as an after thought.

@Doug MacKay1 - You just made one of my points for using on phone RAW processing. If you had a need, then I guarantee that you are not alone. As for what somebody would do post processing? Why not be able to upload to Facebook, Instagram, Flickr, or Twitter directly from the app? Himanshu mentioned that he would still stick with Adobe. Why is that? It is one of the things that Lightroom allows you to do is upload directly to those social media sites. You don't have to convert to JPG then go to your Facebook page to upload. It does all of the work for you. My Canon EOS-6D allows me to upload to Facebook if I'm connected to a WiFi hotspot.

Now do I think RAW shooting smartphones are going to kill the DSLR market. No, not completely. There are already indications that the increasing capability of smartphone cameras have seriously cut into point and shoot sales; with some additionally indicators that DSLR sales are being affected (minimally) as well.

Ultimately, adding post capture RAW processing capabilities gives us options and more flexibility. Which is a good thing.

 

[Doug MacKay1]

The challenge here will be one of market demand. I suppose if the phone had a RAW processor, I would play with it. But I only use the phone for snapshots when my real camera is not with me. I think the market for consumers that would make a buying decision based on the inclusion of a RAW processor for the camera is painfully small. Think of how few people use RAW on their more robust cameras today. Manufacturers need to sell phones my the millions, not the hundreds.

Regardless, I doubt we will ever see a phone camera that can even come close to the quality you pull from the 6D or any modern dedicated High Quality Camera. FF, DX and 4/3's sensors vs these little pinhead sensors is really no contest. Plus your 6D is a beast by itself. It is really not even close; pea shooter vs battleship.

What we will probably see is the phone manufacturers (mostly led by Nokia as the camera seems to be a niche for them) create sort of RAW processing macros. That is, the ability to clean up the files for exposure, white balance etc... where the processing will be done on a RAW file rather than a JPEG, but the user will never know or care. They will just say the camera is "Awesome" and be amazed at how they can correct for their own photographic incompetence. The review sites can continue to rate the camera by megapixels and niche consumers will look for something deeper. It is really not a bad strategy; protect the consumer from themselves.

I also think that the carriers would discourage too many advanced features as this is likely to confuse the general population. That would create additional support issues and potentially increase their costs to almost no financial gain. You can already see the heavy hand of Carriers in phone designs by limiting Tap to Pay, SD cards etc... I suspect this will be a similar challenge.

Who knows, maybe Nokia will surprise us. There has to be a RAW processor already in the camera to produce the JPEGs. Maybe they could put a user wrapper around it so us few pixel peepers can play with it. I would not hold my breath however.

Doug M.

 

[Robinsonmac]

@nasellokm - You are absolutely correct. Having a 16MP highres AND a 5MP lowres simultaneously saved is very inefficient. If you are in JPG capture mode only, why have a 5MP version? I wish I had the ability to save in DNG ONLY. Of course, that would mean, Nokia would have to add native RAW support to its Photos app. That was one of the reasons that led me to write this thread. RAW support just seems like it was added as an after thought.

@Doug MacKay1 - You just made one of my points for using on phone RAW processing. If you had a need, then I guarantee that you are not alone. As for what somebody would do post processing? Why not be able to upload to Facebook, Instagram, Flickr, or Twitter directly from the app? Himanshu mentioned that he would still stick with Adobe. Why is that? It is one of the things that Lightroom allows you to do is upload directly to those social media sites. You don't have to convert to JPG then go to your Facebook page to upload. It does all of the work for you. My Canon EOS-6D allows me to upload to Facebook if I'm connected to a WiFi hotspot.

Now do I think RAW shooting smartphones are going to kill the DSLR market. No, not completely. There are already indications that the increasing capability of smartphone cameras have seriously cut into point and shoot sales; with some additionally indicators that DSLR sales are being affected (minimally) as well.

Ultimately, adding post capture RAW processing capabilities gives us options and more flexibility. Which is a good thing.

You guys do realize that the 5MP image is a high resolution down sampled image from the 20 MP image, it's not just a regular 5MP image....

See pages 5 & 6 for 5MP explanation. See page 12 & 13 for why 2 images are taken:

http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

 

[Doug MacKay1]

You guys do realize that the 5MP image is a high resolution down sampled image from the 20 MP image, it's not just a regular 5MP image....

See pages 5 & 6 for 5MP explanation. See page 12 & 13 for why 2 images are taken:

http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

That's a good point. But what the OP was asking about dose not really have to do with resolution. A down sampled 5MP file from a JPEG will not have the same potential quality as a 5MP picture created from RAW. The reasoning is technical and boring unless you are into digital photos. It has to do with how many bits you can capture per color or location. The RAW file captures far more info and lets you make your own decisions about how the final product should look. With a JPEG, the camera makes all the decisions for you with little input from you. Once those decisions are made, that's it, you can't really change your mind and do it differently.

The real benefit of RAW is the ability to adjust the image. Any adjustments to the JPEG are destructive. Think of it like baking a cake. With a JPEG, once you bake the cake, that is it. You can try to add frosting, figure out how to make it moist, but you cannot separate the ingredients and bake it again. A RAW file is like the kitchen cabinet with unlimited ingredients. The mixer, measuring spoons and oven are the RAW processing tools. If you screw it up, just start over. So if you capture JPEG, all you can do is fiddle with a cooked cake, it will not be better, just different.

Phone manufacturers are giddy about megapixels. It dominates the marketing. To me what is more important is pixel density. Oddly, the lower the pixel density, the better the image to a point. That is why full frame cameras are so expensive and produce such great images. It is not really the detail, but all of the other stuff that makes a picture look great like dynamic range etc... So I would much prefer to have a 5MP sensor in my Icon. Unless you create really big enlargements, the extra pixels are basically wasted. My first digital camera was a 5MP Leica. I still think it has the best image quality under the right lighting conditions of any of my other cameras including my favorite Nikon D700 and Fuji X-E1.

Doug M.

 

[Robinsonmac]

Doug,

Sorry my response was to this post:

@nasellokm - You are absolutely correct. Having a 16MP highres AND a 5MP lowres simultaneously saved is very inefficient. If you are in JPG capture mode only, why have a 5MP version? I wish I had the ability to save in DNG ONLY. Of course, that would mean, Nokia would have to add native RAW support to its Photos app. That was one of the reasons that led me to write this thread. RAW support just seems like it was added as an after thought.

@Doug MacKay1 - You just made one of my points for using on phone RAW processing. If you had a need, then I guarantee that you are not alone. As for what somebody would do post processing? Why not be able to upload to Facebook, Instagram, Flickr, or Twitter directly from the app? Himanshu mentioned that he would still stick with Adobe. Why is that? It is one of the things that Lightroom allows you to do is upload directly to those social media sites. You don't have to convert to JPG then go to your Facebook page to upload. It does all of the work for you. My Canon EOS-6D allows me to upload to Facebook if I'm connected to a WiFi hotspot.

Now do I think RAW shooting smartphones are going to kill the DSLR market. No, not completely. There are already indications that the increasing capability of smartphone cameras have seriously cut into point and shoot sales; with some additionally indicators that DSLR sales are being affected (minimally) as well.

Ultimately, adding post capture RAW processing capabilities gives us options and more flexibility. Which is a good thing.

I think he missed the point about the Pureview 5MP image created in the 1st part of his statement. I also used the wrong terminalolgy, the 5MP image is created from the 20Mp image using oversampling. If you are saying you would rather have a 5MP RAW, then I agree with you as the 5MP oversampled image is cooked as you put it, but still much, much, more detailed than a standard 5MP non oversampled image.

From the white paper:
"In traditional imaging systems, the true resolution of the
system is lower than that of the nominal sensor resolution.
The traditional camera sensor resolution may be
5MP, but it does not really capture photos that have five
million pixels of independent data. The data is spread
across multiple pixels causing, for example, blurring and
artifacts. There are two technical reasons for this: one is
related to the optics design and aliasing, and the other
to the way the sensor samples the data with Bayer colour
filters. A traditional 5MP camera has only 2.5 million
green pixels and 1.25 million red and blue pixels1 for
example. See Figure 3 for a comparison in sharpness of
a standard 5MP image versus an oversampled 5MP image
and Figure 4 for an illustration of how oversampling
reduces noise compared with a standard sensor.
The oversampling technology in the Lumia 1020 makes
it possible to solve both of these issues, and enables
full details to be captured with the 5MP image, visible
as amazing sharpness, naturalness and low noise. It is
physically impossible to capture this with a traditional
5MP camera."

 

[anon(7901790)]

Doug - That is the best explanation of the differences between RAW and JPG capture I've ever seen or heard. Thanks.

And yes, market pressure is the driving factor for the design and manufacture of pretty much anything. Initially, Nokia Camera Pro did not do RAW capture; it was JPG only. It wasn't until the Black update came out that you could save images in RAW format. But it was only for the 1020, 1520, and finally Icon. The Nokia 808 which is sold outside the US has the same camera as the 1020, but I'm not sure it does RAW. So what was the "market pressure" that led Nokia to incorporate RAW capture into its Black update?

As far as a RAW processor. ALL cameras have them. It is how the image is saved from RAW (straight from the sensor) to the final cake (as you say). But like you said, it uses the recipe that is already in the camera (or phone).

In any case, I think RAW capture was an afterthought. The problem now, is that it's like Pandora's Box. They gave us something and only half heartily supported it.

 

[nx_2000]

I have to believe OP is part of a very small minority. RAW capture figured into my decision to buy an Icon... but I certainly didn't plan to be editing the pictures on my phone. The real appeal is that my phone pictures can be part of the same workflow as my DSLR photos, using Adobe Lightroom.

 

[anon(7901790)]

Yes. That was a factor in my getting the Icon. And like you, I planned to incorporate it into my work flow with Lightroom as well. But, as I got to know the phone better and used Nokia Creative Studio, I thought, "Man! It would be nice to be able to work on the RAW image on phone."

And yes, I am probably a small minority. But, so weren't the first cell phone, then later, smartphone users. Who knows, maybe somebody is thinking the same thing and working on an app that allows us to work on the RAW images on the phone.

 

[Joel S.]

Yes. You are correct about RAW images. We're talking 20MB DNGs from the Icon. The 1020 and 808 are even bigger. That does require a bit of CPU power, but people underestimate the CPU capacity of smartphones. Nokia and other phone makers are shipping phones with quad core (and even eight core) processors and several of them are more powerful than my Dell desktop. The biggest limiting factor for phones is RAM, storage, and screen size. The first two are continually improving. I expect to see in the next year or two, phones with 4GB of RAM. I don't see a huge increase of storage though as Google, Microsoft, and Apple are pushing cloud storage so heavily.

I'd prefer a way to get the RAW images off of the device easily, right now it's a pain. Phone screens are too small to reliably edit a RAW file, and it's best done on a properly calibrated display, which many cell phone displays are not. Plus it takes a lot of juice, and while phone specs are impressive, PC processors are on another level. Don't forget your phone has a bunch of processes that MUST run without hiccups that a computer doesn't.

Minimal RAW editing would be nice in device, but I'd rather a Store app for my Surface Pro (I use Lightroom on it today) and an easier way to transfer the files.

 

[anon(7901790)]

I'd prefer a way to get the RAW images off of the device easily, right now it's a pain. Phone screens are too small to reliably edit a RAW file, and it's best done on a properly calibrated display, which many cell phone displays are not. Plus it takes a lot of juice, and while phone specs are impressive, PC processors are on another level. Don't forget your phone has a bunch of processes that MUST run without hiccups that a computer doesn't.

Minimal RAW editing would be nice in device, but I'd rather a Store app for my Surface Pro (I use Lightroom on it today) and an easier way to transfer the files.

Getting the images off the phone can be tiresome, but fortunately, not difficult. Unfortunately, the user guide doesn't help much. Nowhere does it say anything about DNG or RAW capture. The only place it mentions connecting to a computer is to upload custom ringtones to the phone connecting via NFC or Bluetooth, and charging (though it did mention you could transfer data while charging).

Btw, you can set Lightroom up to automatically open when you plug your phone in via USB. It won't automatically download images, but it alleviates a step.

Now for an off-topic question. How do you connect to your Surface Pro? I'm guessing USB. I'm trying to figure out a way to connect wirelessly to my Surface Pro so I don't have to carry around a USB cable with me when I have both phone an Surface. I thought Bluetooth would work (and it does... but not very well) or maybe WiFi.