the end of C8 driver/firmware updates

[benjaminries]

Rather than let bitterness fly through the middle of all the other threads, I'm starting a new one to focus squarely on the issues raised by Laurie's post announcing the end of C8 support (http://forums.wmexperts.com/showpost.php?p=1529366&postcount=32).

In the aforementioned post, Laurie jokingly refers to the questions around C8 support for WM6.5 as "obsessive". It also seems like Celio's perspective is that they have put in lots of development time to release this last unsupported C8 driver, going above-and-beyond for their loyal fans. So I think it is important to explain why most of the user reaction continues to be quite negative, or mixed at best (mine included).

Celio, it isn't that we don't appreciate your work - we do. But our understanding is that your driver development will generally aim at two goals: (1) expanding device and feature support, and (2) fixing bugs. The first goal is your prerogative: it will probably help you expand your customer base and sell more devices. We don't really need to thank you for that. The second goal is to ensure that your existing customers get what they paid for - a device that lives up to the marketing materials.

So when your marketing materials animate a WM phone connecting to the Redfly instantly, the implication is that you're doing your best to improve connection speed and address lag issues. So far, you have.

And when your marketing materials talk about the "Celio Vision" and "Total Cost of Ownership" as better than a laptop/netbook, i.e. because the user need only upgrade/replace his or her phone over time while keeping the same Redfly terminal, the implication is that you're going to support incremental OS upgrades for existing supported devices. By covering the jump from WM6 to WM6.1, you also seemed to be doing this.

And when you (and reviewers) describe the C8N as only differing from the C8 in respect of that extra video port thingy and otherwises uses the same drivers & firmware, the implication is that users who can live without that extra video port thingy should feel free to buy a used C8 for not much less money than a new C8N.

So releasing WM6.5 compatible firmware for the C8 is not some 'special gift' or 'extra benefit' to C8 owners. It derives from the same source as the obligation to fix bugs: ensuring that your product lives up to the promises that were made to the purchaser. You can only do what is humanly possible, of course... but now we KNOW that you know how to make the new drivers work with the C8! (We only recently had reason to doubt this, of course.)

Providing continued support for minor OS version upgrades isn't some kind of courtesy and we aren't "obsessive" to expect that you do it. It is a means of not leaving your initial customer base feeling like they have been deceived. It is a recognition of the fact that your existing customers can help you by recommending your product to others, but aren't about to be arm-twisted into buying a $200 C8N to replace a nearly-identical C8.

It is about Celio avoiding a class action lawsuit for negligent misrepresentation and false advertising.

So to be honest, I'm happy you released the C8 "at your own risk" v1.5 firmware/driver. (I'm not sure how "at your own risk" element will differ that much from the stuff you've released to date.) I've tried it and it even works with the custom WM 6.5.1 roms that are out there for my phone. It seems like a big speed increase and the new BT pairing mechanism seems much more sensible and .NET-independent. This ought to buy us at least 6 months of functionality despite ROM updates, if not more.

But please, reconsider whether this ought to be the last code that you port to the C8. Now that you know how to do it, can't minor updates in the future be streamlined? Are we talking about a space limitation in terms of the firmware ROM itself? How different is the C8N hardware really?

Trust has really been impacted here; most companies give some warning before they phase out support for a product rather than doing it suddenly and without warning. Telling us about this stuff might make us more sympathetic and less likely to believe that you're just making a very poor attempt at getting us to toss out our C8s and buy C8Ns. Because if that's the case, as The Who famously put it, we won't get fooled again.

 

[laurieny]

I certainly apologize for my use of the obsessive word, I was specifically referring to us at Celio and how we live, eat and breath our product, while trying to be light about earlier comments. We were working very hard to give you a "good" answer first, and for quite some time I wasn't sure we would be able to.

I am at a bit of a loss how to respond to the rest. The C8 still works with all the phones today that it did yesterday, and it will continue to do so. The build we have made available here insures it also works with 6.5 phones, of which there are only a few on the market for just a couple of weeks. But more are coming and so that will be a bigger deal for some of you if you change phones next year. It will also work with BlackBerry, though it seems unlikely that would be something of interest to the majority of the people here. But a few people did ask, and so it is there. We make new phone drivers available for free, so if you get a new phone, you can download a driver for it.

Can you help me understand what you would like us to do? If any one would like to private message me I will be happy to try and address any other concerns.

Thanks,
Laurie

 

[jwebb56]

Laurie, the issue in my mind is no longer WM6.5, its WM7. This firmware release has probably bought my C8 another 12 months of life since I'll be putting WM6.5 on my EPIX just as soon as it is available. But once WM7 comes out and I get enticed to upgrade my phone the C8 will become a paperweight to me. Unfortunately it will also be a paperweight to almost everyone else by then meaning its resale value will be non-existent. So my quandary right now is should I sell while the market for a C8 is still pretty good or should I hang on to the C8 until I upgrade the phone knowing that the C8 will be worthless by then.

 

[Smart Guy]

I certainly apologize for my use of the obsessive word, I was specifically referring to us at Celio and how we live, eat and breath our product, while trying to be light about earlier comments. We were working very hard to give you a "good" answer first, and for quite some time I wasn't sure we would be able to.

I am at a bit of a loss how to respond to the rest. The C8 still works with all the phones today that it did yesterday, and it will continue to do so. The build we have made available here insures it also works with 6.5 phones, of which there are only a few on the market for just a couple of weeks. But more are coming and so that will be a bigger deal for some of you if you change phones next year. It will also work with BlackBerry, though it seems unlikely that would be something of interest to the majority of the people here. But a few people did ask, and so it is there. We make new phone drivers available for free, so if you get a new phone, you can download a driver for it.

Can you help me understand what you would like us to do? If any one would like to private message me I will be happy to try and address any other concerns.

Thanks,
Laurie

I PM'd you and this is what I get. Not even quoting the link. Celiocorp is doomed

"Please see my reply on the thread.

-Laurie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart Guy
I am one of the early adopters. I have a C8. HTC released 6.5 and I have my HTC Touch Diamond II (Topaz) upgraded accordingly. What can I do with my C8? An expensive paper weight?

USD99 may be a small amount to you BUT it's MYR1,000.00 to me. That's a month's wages to me."

Even from the beginning, the C8 never had a good firmware with its display issues of the "BLOCK" text.

Wake up Celiocorp. You can fool people once.. and only once:brick::brick:

 

[anon159272]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart Guy
I am one of the early adopters. I have a C8. HTC released 6.5 and I have my HTC Touch Diamond II (Topaz) upgraded accordingly. What can I do with my C8? An expensive paper weight?

How does the new driver work with your C8 and Touch Diamond II (WM6.5)?

 

[markda2000]

I am very dissapointed in Celiocorp. I was an early adopter of the C8 and living in the UK it was more expensive for me to purchase than those in the US (no complaints there, I accepted the price believing that TCO would be to my benefit.) As an early adopter I realised there would be teething problems but my pre purcahse questions to Celio regarding compatiblitity and future phone support convinced me to go ahead.

One of the big reasons for a Redfly was to get more screen realestate on my TYTN II. This the redfly did but as we all know the renders was slow and the build was buggy. I then upgraded to a Sony Ericsson Xperia x1 and got the Fisher Price look, less real estate on my screen. The one reason I bought the redfly was for more. I know the Xperia was a WVGA phone but my initial contact with Celio advised me that future phones would be supported. VGA had been around for some time my phone prior to the TYTNII was a HTC Universal which I have to now say would be more suitable working on its own for typing as opposed to a REDFLY X1i combo.

In some frustration I tested a new build of the software/firmware on my TYTN II only to find that it broke the radio rom, I cannot prove this, but it failed at the same time as the first connection. Not a big loss as this was my now spare phone, but it has lost me about ?70 in resale value.

My X1i is now 12months old and I have not been able to use the the Redfly with it as a serious tool. I am due to get a new phone the HD2. Will Celio support it? No,not with my C8, will they support it with my C8N if they wish me to purchase it, maybe, will they get it the software fully right on a WVGA device, I very much doubt it.

I was a big advocate of Celio and working for a telco was in the process of trying to get my company to take on board the Redfly, I hung back as there was seeming to be driver issues for future phones, that was 12months ago. I am sure glad I did not go ahead, because my position in the company must have surely been seen in a negative light when I was advocating the promises of another company to support devices and bring down TCO when all it amounts to is an increase in cost.

All in all I am left very bitter about this. My Redfly sits in a drawer, it is pointless with my X1i, I kept it their believing in Celio that they would support it better.

 

[graham.hughes]

Laurie, the issue in my mind is no longer WM6.5, its WM7. This firmware release has probably bought my C8 another 12 months of life

For me, I'd have to say 6.5 is an issue, since I'm not planning on using a driver/firmware that Celio intend neither to test nor to support. But I agree that 7 is a massive issue. Will C7/C8N owners also have to replace their units when WM7 comes out? Does a Redfly basically have a 12 month lifespan? This becomes a question not only for longer-term users, but all users, and people currently making buying decisions.

It sounds very much like C8 owners cannot have proper 6.5 support, because there isn't enough space in the C8 to support WM6.5 and BlackBerry. But we bought the devices to use with WinMo, not any other platform. I think it's extremely poor to cut off WinMo support, just because they can't support BB at the same time. If Celio can't manage to support two separate software development strands (one WinMo only, one multi-platform), then they have serious problems.

I think this is commercial suicide for Celio. If I worked for Celio, I'd start applying for jobs elsewhere.

To add: I'm not bitter about this, I don't feel let down. I'm just going to buy a netbook. Well, maybe I feel let down that Celio are only telling us that we'd be cut off now, after leading us to believe that 6.5 support was coming. It must have been apparent some time ago that multiple platform support would not fit in the C8.

Graham.

 

[Velvis]

So rather than try/use an unsupported driver you are not going to use it at all? That makes no sense and seems childish.

I for one am very happy they finally released a 6.5 driver. I have been waiting a long time for it. So far it has been working great and the redfly interface looks much nicer and normal bluetooth pairing is a bonus. It even sounds like they may have an update for additional fixes from Laurys post.


I feel for the people who spent alot of money on the device (perhaps before it dropped to $200, or from other countries) and perhaps Celio could offer an discount for an upgrade to the newer models.

The Redfly is a niche product from a small company that relies on many other company's hardware at a very low level. I think it must be difficult to anticipate issues like this at design time to the time that 2nd and 3rd generation phones are coming out from a bunch of different manufacturers. For example, don't newer phones have a higher resolution than the Redfly at this point? When the Redfly was in development stages that was probably 2-3-4 years off, the cost of the screen would have been enormous. Who knew that HTC was going to come out with a 3D interface after all we had was the standard 2d today screen for ages?

If Celio said specifically the redfly will work with any phone for the next x number of years (and perhaps they have, i dont know) and I spent a fortune on it, I can see being upset.

But I spent $200 a year ago and it has worked on both of my phones an now I have installed a 6.5.1 rom and it works as well. I imagine I will get another year out of my Redfly. $100/year doesnt seem crazy to me for what the device does for me.

Perhaps going forward Celio will better be able to anticipate upcoming issues and truely make a device capable of lasting generation after generation. To me that seems unrealistic though. There are not many products in tech that
work that way. Technology changes, things get better, things get replaced.

To be honest I have never been involved with a company that has posted regularly to interact with its customers like Celio has here. By releasing a 6.5 driver with caveats is probably something alot of other companies wouldnt do. Again I am very grateful for it.

 

[graham.hughes]

So rather than try/use an unsupported driver you are not going to use it at all? That makes no sense and seems childish.

A buggy driver could brick your phone, and Celio make it clear that this is a "use at your own risk" driver. I need my phone. Why should I take the risk? Why should I put up with a product for which the manufacturer refuses to provide any guarantees or support?

For example, don't newer phones have a higher resolution than the Redfly at this point? When the Redfly was in development stages that was probably 2-3-4 years off, the cost of the screen would have been enormous.

HTC's Universal (known under a variety of names) launched in 2005, with a 640x480 display. Newer devices with this kind of resolution, like the Touch Diamond, Touch Pro, X1, etc., did not come as a surprise.

Perhaps going forward Celio will better be able to anticipate upcoming issues and truely make a device capable of lasting generation after generation. To me that seems unrealistic though. There are not many products in tech that work that way. Technology changes, things get better, things get replaced.

You're missing the point. The C8 is not incapable of supporting WM6.5. It is incapable of supporting WM65 and BlackBerry. Celio are unwilling to support WM6.5 without providing BlackBerry support in the same product. It is not a case of "technology changes".

Graham.

 

[Velvis]

A buggy driver could brick your phone, and Celio make it clear that this is a "use at your own risk" driver. I need my phone. Why should I take the risk? Why should I put up with a product for which the manufacturer refuses to provide any guarantees or support?

I guess because you have no alternatives. No doubt you have a valid point. Either try it, buy a new Redfly, or sell your existing one. While its at your own risk, I really doubt the driver would brick the phone as your not flashing the phone or changing the ROM permanently. I cant imagine a hard reset not fixing any issue that may occur.


HTC's Universal (known under a variety of names) launched in 2005, with a 640x480 display. Newer devices with this kind of resolution, like the Touch Diamond, Touch Pro, X1, etc., did not come as a surprise.
Yes, but do any of those phones have an Official 6.5 rom? Celio C8 still supports them with 6.1 correct?


You're missing the point. The C8 is not incapable of supporting WM6.5. It is incapable of supporting WM65 and BlackBerry. Celio are unwilling to support WM6.5 without providing BlackBerry support in the same product. It is not a case of "technology changes".

Graham.

They may be incapable of doing from a business model point of view. Perhaps they simply cant afford to have two development tracks to support a device that hasnt been sold in over a year. Who knows how many C8s they have sold? might be a few thousand perhaps less. How many of those want to run it with a 6.5 driver on a phone just released? It could possibly be a handful. Throwing money at developing something for such a small amount of people could put Celio out of business.

I understand being upset because it directly effects you, but Celio needs to make rational business decisions from a financial point of view. I dont believe for a second they just EOL'd the C8 because they just dont want to support it. They are a company looking to make a profit.

 

[Smart Guy]

How does the new driver work with your C8 and Touch Diamond II (WM6.5)?

I wasnt even sure where is the link to the so-called new driver. Celiocorp's web site is pretty messy. Even if I can get it downloaded, I wont install, simply because of Celiocorp's statement, ""use at your own risk" driver". I dont want another investment to failed because of some.... ##$8it##

It surprises me why all this discussion of ceasing support for C8 is not mention at their official home page. Have I missed something there?

 

[Smart Guy]

...I understand being upset because it directly effects you, but Celio needs to make rational business decisions from a financial point of view. I dont believe for a second they just EOL'd the C8 because they just dont want to support it. They are a company looking to make a profit.

I agree, but how they handle customers, especially early adopters will translate into success or doom.

Look at the other threads in this forum. CKJ (or is it CJK) talking about support for WM6.5. But there never was indication that the C8 will be thrown out their support's window. I for one was eagerly waiting for a new firm-ware that would hopefully solved many issues. But it was a dream.

Anyway, Celiocorp will be a bad memory for me.

 

[graham.hughes]

They may be incapable of doing from a business model point of view. Perhaps they simply cant afford to have two development tracks to support a device that hasnt been sold in over a year.

No, I think they can't afford to. The concern I'm raising is that they might be equally unable to support C7 and C8N users when WM7 (or a new version of the BlackBerry platform, etc.) arrives. You might think that a 12-24 month lifespan is adequate. I don't. This product sells on having a lower TCO than a netbook or laptop. I've had my current laptop for five years, and there isn't a peripheral I can't connect, or an application I can't run. If a Redfly can only manage one fifth of the lifespan, it stops being cheaper.

Even if I can get it downloaded, I wont install, simply because of Celiocorp's statement, ""use at your own risk" driver.

I don't blame you. To quote Celio's site...

In the event that your REDFLY is rendered useless after installing 1.5, you agree to not hold Celio Corp liable for any replacement costs to your unsupported and out-of-warranty device.

Cheers, and thanks for rubbing it in that it's now unsupported. Actually, I ordered my C8 exactly one year ago today, so it's not out of warranty yet. But I don't think I'll risk it.

 

[anon159272]

Smart Guy, the driver is here:

http://forums.wmexperts.com/showpost.php?p=1530071&postcount=41

the link is embedded in the post, about 2 paragraphs from the bottom.

All I can say at the moment is that the driver installed very smoothly for me and it updated the RF quickly and with no issues at all. I can't provide warranty support for any of you but I can just tell you my experience as someone who was willing to "risk" the driver update.

 

[Smart Guy]

Smart Guy, the driver is here:

http://forums.wmexperts.com/showpost.php?p=1530071&postcount=41

the link is embedded in the post, about 2 paragraphs from the bottom.

All I can say at the moment is that the driver installed very smoothly for me and it updated the RF quickly and with no issues at all. I can't provide warranty support for any of you but I can just tell you my experience as someone who was willing to "risk" the driver update.

Thanks but no thanks!
The Redfly is a highly hyped device with false marketing & advertising. There are other alternatives with cheaper TCO than this.

 

[benjaminries]

Can you help me understand what you would like us to do? If any one would like to private message me I will be happy to try and address any other concerns.

Thanks,
Laurie

It is very simple: if you are going to end driver support specifically for the C8, at least do it 6 months or 1 year AFTER giving us the heads-up. And the heads-up should be more straightforward than a cryptic forum post that you can neither confirm nor deny that support is about to end.

I think the current "unsupported" driver is better than nothing, and I installed it and got it working with my WM6.5.1 beta ROM. Yes I risked bricking the device, but what good is the device anyway if I it isn't compatible with my phone? Once I decided to move on from WM6.1, I had nothing to lose. So I'm covered just fine - the point here is that to suddenly announce that new driver support is over for the C8 (as of right now) is going to hurt your C8N and C7 sales because it is going to cast doubt on how long you'll support those devices.

Why not treat the current "secret" C8 v.1.5 driver like all your previous "beta" drivers? It seems to have about the same reliability level, and you were doing just fine before.

 

[davejrob]

I agree with Benjaminries in his original post and the previous post. I am disappointed with the decision to end support for what to me is still a new product. My RedFly is just over a year old. The C8N came out a month after I purchased it.

While my RedFly still works fine, my nearly two year old Tilt is getting old fast. If I replace the phone under a "new every two" progarm as I'll be able to do with, for example, a Tilt II that runs WinMo 6.5 I'll have to be running the RedFly with unsupported firmware and my fingers crossed. That really doesn't sit right with me. This does not appear to be a technological problem with the C8, but instead a desire to avoid supporting 2 separate firmware upgrades. I don't care about Blackberry support, but I had hoped I could get support well into the future for new Windows Mobile Phones that are produced as long as that is technologically feasible.

The decision not to provide further support for the C8 is, I believe, a poor business decision. Those looking at the C8N or C7 will ultmately see RedFly as a disposable product rather than a product that will remain an effective tool well into the future. Laptops certainly last for more than two to three years. The RedFly is too expensive to be disposable.

I think Celio should reconsider this decision and at least officially support WinMo phones into the future on the C8. This should be done both to maintain existing customer loyalty (Quite honestly I can't see purchasing a new RedFly if a new WinMo phone I buy won't work with my current model after just a year, I'd rather buy a Netbook) and to show new purchasers that they are not making an investment in a product that may turn out to be useless after two or three years, but instead a product that will be functional long term.

Finally, I agree that this was not the proper way to announce the end of ongoing support. We were simply told that it was a done deal and no further support could be expected. I sounds like they went out of their way to make one last ditch effort to provide firmware that would potentially give the C8 some future life with some of the new phones coming out now, but since it's not being truly supported we cannot count on updates to address bugs or other changes as new phones emerge, plus we're using it is at our own risk. That really does not make a relatively early adopter like me who has touted the virtues of this machine to fellow attorneys over the last year feel very good.

I'm disappointed Celio and would have hoped to have been treated better.

 

[jwebb56]

A question for Laurie or Colin. If I need to roll back the firmware in my C8 Redfly from 1.5 to 1.4, is there a special process to follow? The 1.5 firmware seems to be working just fine but I want to be sure I can roll it back if a problem crops up. And I'm uncomfortable with just flashing it normally through the phone without checking first. The last thing I want to do is accidentally brick it.

 

[jwebb56]

Oh and for all the Celio employees who check this forum -- davejrob is absolutely right when he states you should consider continuing to support the C8 for WinMo only. Those of us who bought the C8 knew going in it was a WinMo companion. We had no reasonable expectation it'd ever work with another Smartphone OS. But we did expect that we'd be able to use it for future WinMo OS releases and future WinMo phones.

 

[graham.hughes]

Oh and for all the Celio employees who check this forum -- davejrob is absolutely right when he states you should consider continuing to support the C8 for WinMo only. Those of us who bought the C8 knew going in it was a WinMo companion. We had no reasonable expectation it'd ever work with another Smartphone OS. But we did expect that we'd be able to use it for future WinMo OS releases and future WinMo phones.

My feelings exactly.

Lenovo still provide software updates for my five year-old ThinkPad R40, which exceeds my expectations. Celio dropped support for my C8 before it was twelve months old. Like many people, I bought the C8 to use with a TouchPro, supported at the time only with Beta drivers. We did that from a belief in Celio's commitment to support new Windows devices. There was no suggestion at that time of supporting other platforms, so we really have no right to feel let down if the C8 remains WinMo only.