Continued WinMo support for the C8 until it becomes technologically impossible to do makes sense to me. If there are going to be further updates for the C8N and C7 for future WinMo phones and platforms, what's the big deal about providing those same updates for the C8? I've seen nothing to distinguish the technology between the three models other than the obvious video port and the C7's smaller screen and battery. If there is a major difference between these models, then Celio should explain exactly what it is and how it prevents further support for the C8. Blackberry support is not the issue for me. If I wanted a RedFly for a Blackberry I could see buying a new model to accomplish that.
the end of C8 driver/firmware updates
- Thread starter benjaminries
- Start date
- Apr 9, 2009
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I agree that continued WinMo support for the C8 is all that is needed, and it doesn't need to last forever - we should just be given some reasonable warning about when it will end, and/or some announcement about why it is technically impossible to support a new version of WM.
I'm mostly surprised at how the C7 could be different from a firmware perspective - we're just talking about a smaller screen (same resolution) and a smaller battery, right??! If the C8N, C8 and C7 each use very different components beyond the obvious, that doesn't sound like very efficient manufacturing. So combined with Celio's PR secrecy of late, I call BS on this "it was extra difficult to cram the new code into the old C8" line. Until greater details are offered, it sounds purely like a pure marketting ploy to resell a nominally updated product to the same customers.
I'm mostly surprised at how the C7 could be different from a firmware perspective - we're just talking about a smaller screen (same resolution) and a smaller battery, right??! If the C8N, C8 and C7 each use very different components beyond the obvious, that doesn't sound like very efficient manufacturing. So combined with Celio's PR secrecy of late, I call BS on this "it was extra difficult to cram the new code into the old C8" line. Until greater details are offered, it sounds purely like a pure marketting ploy to resell a nominally updated product to the same customers.
I especially agree with the comments regarding the C7. If memory serves me it was introduced at the tail end of the C8's run and before the C8N came out. Might be wrong on the time line though.
In any case, the C7 hardware cannot be that different than the C8. In fact, I'd be surprised if you couldn't take a C7 board straight into the C8 and have it work. The case/keyboard/ports are identical and the display is the same resolution. That's why I think Celio should offer a board upgrade and not a reduced price on a C8N.
When the C7 was introduced my original thought was it was a C8 with a smaller, cheaper screen. Sure would appreciate a Celio employee wading in to offer some details.
In any case, the C7 hardware cannot be that different than the C8. In fact, I'd be surprised if you couldn't take a C7 board straight into the C8 and have it work. The case/keyboard/ports are identical and the display is the same resolution. That's why I think Celio should offer a board upgrade and not a reduced price on a C8N.
When the C7 was introduced my original thought was it was a C8 with a smaller, cheaper screen. Sure would appreciate a Celio employee wading in to offer some details.
A foot note is in order regarding my last post. I am now assuming that the C7's main board is different than the C8 in regard to its hardware, memory, etc. It has to cost much less than a PC motherboard so we ought to be able to get it for under $50 with instructions for how to install it. Of course Celio can (and should) assume no liability for the install. But I'd bet if you are capable of working inside a PC case (which most on this forum probably are) then the Redfly should be no problem.
My understanding from what Laurie has said is that the C7 and C8N have more space to accomodate a larger firmware than the C8. Now that the firmware integrates WM6.5 and BlackBerry (and possibly some prototype Android stuff for all we know), it doesn't fit on the C8 without some hacking. However, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of competent software engineers to modularize the software such that it can be built WinMo-only as well as multi-platform.
Yes, there is a special process to revert from 1.5 to 1.4. So far I haven't heard of anyone needing to switch back to 1.4 after installing the most recent released version of 1.5. However if you need to switch back, let me know and I can send you instructions.
Sad day when I heard this news today! I lost my job & health insurance two weeks ago. I bought my C8 about a year ago to pair with my Alltel (Now Verizon - SIGH!) Touch Pro. I was THOROUGHLY convinced by Celio's marketing that it was a WIN-MO DEVICE! I have helped to sell MANY of these terminals to others!! Now, don't I feel stupid!!!
I WILL go with a Net Book next if I'm able to pick up the pieces and move on after my Co closed. In the meantime, I depend on my RedFly C8 while out "job hunting" and trying to network and stay "on top"! Plan to leave my current soft & firm "as is" since the "disclaimer" scares the hell out of me!
I feel TRULY LET DOWN by Celio. I have 4 people out there on the verge of buying a RedFly. I have ALREADY advised them not to. At this point I don't even know if I will be able to afford my new Verizon plan but I certainly CAN'T afford to invest in tech that has such a short lifespan!
It was a good ride guys but "the gig is up". You served me well up until now but the service ended MUCH TOO SOON!!!!
A LOST customer!
Jim in NC
I WILL go with a Net Book next if I'm able to pick up the pieces and move on after my Co closed. In the meantime, I depend on my RedFly C8 while out "job hunting" and trying to network and stay "on top"! Plan to leave my current soft & firm "as is" since the "disclaimer" scares the hell out of me!
I feel TRULY LET DOWN by Celio. I have 4 people out there on the verge of buying a RedFly. I have ALREADY advised them not to. At this point I don't even know if I will be able to afford my new Verizon plan but I certainly CAN'T afford to invest in tech that has such a short lifespan!
It was a good ride guys but "the gig is up". You served me well up until now but the service ended MUCH TOO SOON!!!!
A LOST customer!
Jim in NC
I know there's been some very valid complaints over the last few weeks. But there has also been some misunderstandings (mostly our fault). If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to set up conference call sometime for anyone and everyone interested and we can spend 30 minutes or so on the phone going over all of the technical details around the C8, its 1.5 firmware posted on http://www.celiocorp.com/008 and what some of the options are for original C8 owners whom we have understandably upset. I don't think a zillion back and forth posts on a forum can accomplish what we could achieve in a short phone call, but I'll try to answer as many questions as possible that crop up on this post.
Just so we're clear on a few things...
Just so we're clear on a few things...
- There is a final 1.4 firmware posted for the C8 on http://www.celiocorp.com/support
- For anyone needing to connect to a WM 6.5 or BlackBerry phone there is a 1.5 special build posted at http://www.celiocorp.com/008
- While that build of 1.5 firmware on your REDFLY may not be updated in the future, that doesn't mean we're not updating the code in the driver on your smartphones on a regular basis (which is the most important code anyway by far). For example, the first official 6.5 beta driver will be posted most likely by Monday Nov 16, 2009 (6.5 mostly works now but the actual 6.5 beta on Monday has many, many 6.5 improvements). You can download that driver like anyone else and connect to your C8. The C8 will work with WM 6.5 and BlackBerry. The phone driver will be updated and available to you.
- WM7 is unknown. Microsoft hasn't released any developer/partner builds so it's a wild card. Being totally future proof would be great, but can anyone 100% expect the C8 board designed in late 2007 to be WM7 (or even WM6.5/BlackBerry) compatible when the architecture was designed before specific details of those OSs were available?
- I apologize for some of the harsh legal text on http://www.celiocorp.com/008. In retrospect the text is over the top and I'll likely change it soon. Please don't let that text scare anyone away. I've personally updated many C8 units to 1.5 and have had no problems.
Colin,
To make sure I don't misunderstand your post, you are saying that the 1.5 special build will continue to work properly on the Redfly side with future releases of WM6.5 drivers for the phone side, correct? That is certainly welcome news.
As I commented before that will give my Redfly about 12 more months of useful life until the WM7 phones are out in force. I will then have a 2.5 year old C8 that is essentially worthless (i.e., won't work on my phone and its resale value will be $20 or less). If that is the life expectancy and resale value for Redfly models going forward, the TCO argument for a Redfly over a Netbook is blown up in my opinion.
I understand the inherent problem of designing a product that will work with future phone platforms. It's virtually impossible to make that guarantee. That puts Celio in a real bind -- your business case depends on a user being able to use the Redfly for several years to keep the TCO low (for arguments sake lets say 4-5 years). However, smartphone users are going to upgrade phones multiple times over that life expectancy. Once they get burned with a Redfly that doesn't work with their new phone its a user you'll probably lose forever. When it happens to enough users the result could be a death spiral for Celio.
That is why I really believe you need to rethink your position on upgrades. A slightly reduced price to trade up to the new model won't sway many people. A reasonably priced board upgrade would keep many of us satisfied. Your engineers should be able to design successive generations of Redfly's while maintaining form and fit of the main board.
To make sure I don't misunderstand your post, you are saying that the 1.5 special build will continue to work properly on the Redfly side with future releases of WM6.5 drivers for the phone side, correct? That is certainly welcome news.
As I commented before that will give my Redfly about 12 more months of useful life until the WM7 phones are out in force. I will then have a 2.5 year old C8 that is essentially worthless (i.e., won't work on my phone and its resale value will be $20 or less). If that is the life expectancy and resale value for Redfly models going forward, the TCO argument for a Redfly over a Netbook is blown up in my opinion.
I understand the inherent problem of designing a product that will work with future phone platforms. It's virtually impossible to make that guarantee. That puts Celio in a real bind -- your business case depends on a user being able to use the Redfly for several years to keep the TCO low (for arguments sake lets say 4-5 years). However, smartphone users are going to upgrade phones multiple times over that life expectancy. Once they get burned with a Redfly that doesn't work with their new phone its a user you'll probably lose forever. When it happens to enough users the result could be a death spiral for Celio.
That is why I really believe you need to rethink your position on upgrades. A slightly reduced price to trade up to the new model won't sway many people. A reasonably priced board upgrade would keep many of us satisfied. Your engineers should be able to design successive generations of Redfly's while maintaining form and fit of the main board.
WOW - hadnt looked at this forum in a while. I am feeling pretty glad that I sold my C8 months ago. Hope you guys get this all worked out.
From an outside perspective, seems like you are all no better or worse off than we ever were - the drivers were always halfway shaky and Celio would never have replaced a bricked phone anyway.
My issue, if I were you, would still be with how the Redfly works like a crippled smartphone, which already is a lower powered device than a netbook or laptop. Throw in a bug or 2 and I was spending more time tweaking than I was using. Great idea, mediocre execution at best. I want video, I want a real browser, I want no keyboard lag, I want MY today screen, I want more storage space, and I want a REAL PC OS: I want a netbook. Good people at the company though, I must say.
From an outside perspective, seems like you are all no better or worse off than we ever were - the drivers were always halfway shaky and Celio would never have replaced a bricked phone anyway.
My issue, if I were you, would still be with how the Redfly works like a crippled smartphone, which already is a lower powered device than a netbook or laptop. Throw in a bug or 2 and I was spending more time tweaking than I was using. Great idea, mediocre execution at best. I want video, I want a real browser, I want no keyboard lag, I want MY today screen, I want more storage space, and I want a REAL PC OS: I want a netbook. Good people at the company though, I must say.
It's true that many of us (those of us with Touch Diamonds or Touch Pros) had a succession of beta drivers for some time. But we got great support from Celio in using them, and that's now withdrawn. We would not have got a bricked phone replaced, but each new driver came with a new firmware, and that firmware upgrade was supported.
What has changed:
- Changes to drivers that rely on changes to the firmware will not affect C8 owners.
- C8 firmware will no longer be fixed.
- If the 1.5 firmware bricks your C8, tough. Colin says it's never happened to him, but he's not putting his money on it.
- New drivers will not have been tested on the C8 firmware.
I didn't want video, and I found the browser experience with Iris (sadly, no longer available) to be... adequate.
At the time I bought the C8, it was less than half the price of a decent netbook, and netbooks were not up to being laptop replacements. I didn't want to end up with a laptop and a netbook, with two places to install and update software, two places where my files might be, and so on.
But as netbooks get cheaper and more powerful, and with the apparent short life-span of the RedFly, I don't think the RedFly makes sense anymore, even for people like me who could live with the limitations.
Graham.
Graham,
Having been with the Celio test team from the beginning I would just like to respond to a few of your points.
The only reason the firmware would need to be "fixed" is if a new platform (OS) was to be added to the REDFLY compatibility, which has been confirmed by all here that they only care about Windows Mobile with the C8. If you turn the REDFLY on without a phone attached that is the "Firmware" running. If you can find any issues without a phone attached please let us know. As CKJ has said the phone driver is the most important code which is where fixes will continue to be made. (I have to date not used a driver which is not backwards compatible with previous firmware.)
Again to echo CKJ I have updated A LOT of C8's without issue. Being in testing we do this many times a day. Also being in testing I can assure you that I have C8's here with me that I currently continue to test with the newer drivers as we develop them.
I hope this helps to ease some of your worries, and thank you for all your feedback. I know you have been a regular contributor to the forums and we appreciate it.
Thanks,
Matt
Celio Corp.|REDFLY
Matt,
I'm a professional software engineer, and I specialise in mobile phone software. Clearly, software engineering is not your background.
The other reason why the firmware would need to be "fixed" is if it's "broken". Unless you're claiming that the firmware is now "perfect". RedFly firmware has been updated several times over the last year, without adding a new platform (OS). Each new driver has come with a firmware update. Are you suggesting that these firmware updates were irrelevant and unnecessary? Do you believe that the firmware is in no way involved once the phone is connected?
You may say that you have updated as many C8s as you like. Your company's policy is that if a firmware update damages the unit, you will provide no support. If you are so confident, you are welcome to change that policy.
Testing future drivers with the C8 is also not your company's stated policy. Again, you are welcome to reassure us by changing that policy.
You might like to read through Colin's and Laurie's posts, and apprise yourself of your company's policy towards C8 users.
I have no worries. My C8 is going in the bin, and I'm buying a netbook. What we're all trying to get you to understand is: why! Because if you don't understand why your customers don't want to be your customers anymore, you're in real trouble. We're doing you a favour here. Again.
Cheers,
Graham.
I'm a professional software engineer, and I specialise in mobile phone software. Clearly, software engineering is not your background.
The other reason why the firmware would need to be "fixed" is if it's "broken". Unless you're claiming that the firmware is now "perfect". RedFly firmware has been updated several times over the last year, without adding a new platform (OS). Each new driver has come with a firmware update. Are you suggesting that these firmware updates were irrelevant and unnecessary? Do you believe that the firmware is in no way involved once the phone is connected?
You may say that you have updated as many C8s as you like. Your company's policy is that if a firmware update damages the unit, you will provide no support. If you are so confident, you are welcome to change that policy.
Testing future drivers with the C8 is also not your company's stated policy. Again, you are welcome to reassure us by changing that policy.
You might like to read through Colin's and Laurie's posts, and apprise yourself of your company's policy towards C8 users.
I have no worries. My C8 is going in the bin, and I'm buying a netbook. What we're all trying to get you to understand is: why! Because if you don't understand why your customers don't want to be your customers anymore, you're in real trouble. We're doing you a favour here. Again.
Cheers,
Graham.
Graham - If you do switch to a Netbook do yourself a favor and sell your C8 quickly. Right now they are getting between $150 and $180 on eBay. Those prices will not last long as the issues with C8 support get more widely known and the time until WM7 arrives (which will kill the C8's value) gets nearer.
I am going to sell mine right now. I gave up a long time ago on this product. Did any good web browser like Opera ever work on this 
I wish I could afford to smash this pos and I hope Celio corp gets eaten alive by netbooks. Hopefully by this asap you Celio corp will no longer exist Too many demands for products, wifi, touch, devices... be a real company commit and deliever don't dottle around like an idiot.
I wish I could afford to smash this pos and I hope Celio corp gets eaten alive by netbooks. Hopefully by this asap you Celio corp will no longer exist Too many demands for products, wifi, touch, devices... be a real company commit and deliever don't dottle around like an idiot.Yes, I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, I'm quite ready to buy a netbook just yet, and I'm not changing my phone yet either - yes, I know I've moaned a lot about something that is not yet my problem, but there will be no point complaining about it later!
Did any good web browser like Opera ever work on this
To be fair, they did get Opera working on it - though it wasn't the best idea, since Opera is very well optimized for a small touch screen, and on a big screen and touch pad, I don't find it that good. Iris was promising (I still use it), until RIM killed it. There's quite a long thread on BEST Browser for the Redfly on this forum.
I think they're very much having a problem of trying to deliver too many products. The Redfly dock (Redfly without display or keyboard, just USB and video ports) is no longer spoken of, nor is the mobile-viewer (software-only Redfly. The latter is something they should be pushing, as it's a potential seller for those of us who are defecting to netbooks. BlackBerry... not sure how well that will do, and I don't see the point in supporting Android. Android users don't buy software, as anyone who makes a living from mobile phone software will tell you; I don't see them buying hardware either. The cost of exploring these products seems to be taking Celio away from their core market.
To those couple of guys, working with Celiocorp, who have been quite helpful to us, I suggest quickly go job-hunting. Celiocorps' days are numbered.
TQ
If anyone is still listening here, I have a question. A new 6.5 beta driver was released today (1.5.0.310). This is a higher number than the 1.5.0.286 version we got from the "secret" page, though the date on the driver page still says 11/3/2009.
Now to my question. Colin said above that we could continue to update the smartphone side of the driver and it would work with the special C8 firmware (applied as part of the 286 driver). But when I installed the 286 version, it automatically updated the firmware on the RedFly (well, it prompted me, but it did update the RF). Is the 310 driver going to attempt to auto-update the RF firmware to a version that is not compatible with the C8?
Just curious if the new drivers are smart enough to see a C8 and say "ok, don't touch the firmware anymore" if it has 286 on it already.
Now to my question. Colin said above that we could continue to update the smartphone side of the driver and it would work with the special C8 firmware (applied as part of the 286 driver). But when I installed the 286 version, it automatically updated the firmware on the RedFly (well, it prompted me, but it did update the RF). Is the 310 driver going to attempt to auto-update the RF firmware to a version that is not compatible with the C8?
Just curious if the new drivers are smart enough to see a C8 and say "ok, don't touch the firmware anymore" if it has 286 on it already.
Yes, if you have a C8 (with the special build installed from http://www.celiocorp.com/008) then you can continue to get the new drivers like the beta 310 build on your phone. Just go to m.celiocorp.com/beta from your phone and install the new driver. The driver will not try and update your C8.
Wow - I just discovered this thread (I've been a WMexperts podcast listener for some time, but have only recently hit the forums).
I bought a like new in box Redfly C8 from Ebay close to a year ago - shortly after the C8n came out (I'm not sure whether it had ever been turned on; the box contents were in mint condition, including the plastic bags and manuals/registration cards). I had looked at the C7 and C8n and did not see a reason to pay more for video. Some indications on the site that the C8n was more expandable would have been nice.
Part of what drew me to Redfly is that I've been burned with non-portable accessories; most recently a Think Outside Bluetooth keyboard that I thought would finally be able to keep up with my phones - unfortunately, they stopped producing drivers, then got out of the business and were acquired. Finally, I looked at the Celio site and it seemed that I'd be able to upgrade phones but keep the same RedFly.
I'm watching to see where the HD2 ends up; otherwise, I don't know when I'll upgrade my Treo 800w, but I'm hoping to keep using my RedFly for at least a 3 year lifecycle. Your competition is the $229 Netbook - while the RedFly does give you some features that you don't get with the Netbook (already having email synced, etc), the Netbook gives you some features that you don't get with the RedFly (a laptop/desktop OS).
In the conference room, I'm the only one with a RedFly. On the days that I show up with a laptop instead, people notice. I've explained many times the difference between the RedFly and a netbook, and why I picked a RedFly.
If you're able to get a WM7 driver that can talk to the C8, I'll be completely satisfied and will seriously consider an upgrade for my next phone. If not, then please consider providing at least some form of competitive upgrade (I realize that's asking a lot, given that I didn't buy my C8 from you).
If neither of these ideas work for you, my last recommendation would be to provide a software version that will run on a netbook. If it's just software, I would likely buy it for $30 (given that I'll own a netbook at that point, so the only time I would use the RedFly software would be if/when I did not have local WiFi).
If my next phone runs WM7 and I can't use my C8 with it, I will not be willing to spend $250 for a new RedFly, especially given that you might one day orphan it so you can support Android.
I bought a like new in box Redfly C8 from Ebay close to a year ago - shortly after the C8n came out (I'm not sure whether it had ever been turned on; the box contents were in mint condition, including the plastic bags and manuals/registration cards). I had looked at the C7 and C8n and did not see a reason to pay more for video. Some indications on the site that the C8n was more expandable would have been nice.
Part of what drew me to Redfly is that I've been burned with non-portable accessories; most recently a Think Outside Bluetooth keyboard that I thought would finally be able to keep up with my phones - unfortunately, they stopped producing drivers, then got out of the business and were acquired. Finally, I looked at the Celio site and it seemed that I'd be able to upgrade phones but keep the same RedFly.
I'm watching to see where the HD2 ends up; otherwise, I don't know when I'll upgrade my Treo 800w, but I'm hoping to keep using my RedFly for at least a 3 year lifecycle. Your competition is the $229 Netbook - while the RedFly does give you some features that you don't get with the Netbook (already having email synced, etc), the Netbook gives you some features that you don't get with the RedFly (a laptop/desktop OS).
In the conference room, I'm the only one with a RedFly. On the days that I show up with a laptop instead, people notice. I've explained many times the difference between the RedFly and a netbook, and why I picked a RedFly.
If you're able to get a WM7 driver that can talk to the C8, I'll be completely satisfied and will seriously consider an upgrade for my next phone. If not, then please consider providing at least some form of competitive upgrade (I realize that's asking a lot, given that I didn't buy my C8 from you).
If neither of these ideas work for you, my last recommendation would be to provide a software version that will run on a netbook. If it's just software, I would likely buy it for $30 (given that I'll own a netbook at that point, so the only time I would use the RedFly software would be if/when I did not have local WiFi).
If my next phone runs WM7 and I can't use my C8 with it, I will not be willing to spend $250 for a new RedFly, especially given that you might one day orphan it so you can support Android.
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