This fragmentation of Lumia Denim is confusing!

[Silviu Bogusevschi]

830 should receive pretty much the same features for the camera as 930/1520 (except 4k). If you can't use it yet, then it's a temporary thing (or issue?).
Anyway there should be no confusion at all if you listen to MS carefully. If they said that 830 will receive the features, then it will receive.

 

[Zulfigar]

I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk

Because OEMs and carriers like having their phones different in some manor. That's why each phone (not just Lumias) has a different firmware, while the OS stays the same.

 

[Nabkawe5]

I am sure also many other people have the same feelings about the 830 "advertisement". Let's hope that this was a first but also last "trick"

I agree, there was very little explanation about the feature set of the 830, Lumia Camera should have never been advertised on the 830 only to come 3 months later to its users, I truly think 4k should've not been included in the demo.

 

[BiggishTuba558]

I am confused and frustrated by the lumia denim update.

Microsoft has said that certain features would become available with lumia denim, particularily imaging would be vastly improved. softpay would be available, if you're carrier supports it, and some other minor improvements. When I bought the lumia 830, I was under the impression that since it had denim, I would have these updates.

I was wrong.

I expected the lack of softpay ability, and I accepted that this would be due to carriers not supporting the platform for some reason or another. What I didn't know was that Microsoft had fragmented Denim. Apparently, lumia denim which is the firmware update for Nokia/Microsoft lumias for when they upgrade to 8.1.1, was broken up. so apparently, my brand new lumia 830 has 8.1.1.1, but I have to get 8.1.1.2 in order for lumia camera 5.0 to work.

This was not clear when they released denim. this was not clear when they talked about lumia camera 5.0. I feel Microsoft should not have advertised these features if they did not actual include them in denim. To me, this is true lying to the consumer in order to sell a device. I'm probably going to give Microsoft a pass, because let's face it, theres still enough there to like. but ****, I'm not recommending this device or others to friends.

If you want a platform with a true, transparent update schedule and routine, go with iOS. for everything else, there's android and windows phone.

If you want... a phone which can't be updated (unless you want it becomes unusable), go with iOS.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

830 should receive pretty much the same features for the camera as 930/1520 (except 4k). If you can't use it yet, then it's a temporary thing (or issue?).
Anyway there should be no confusion at all if you listen to MS carefully. If they said that 830 will receive the features, then it will receive.

I don't believe in fairy tales although sometimes they are entertaining and I believe less in those who have promise things but never delivered = Microsoft Windows Phone division.

 

[Noahma]

I had the home screen folders with P4D -- that is not a Denim feature.

Does the 830 have the camera hardware necessary to run Camera 5.0??

Yes, they demo'd the 830 with Camera 5, the only difference is no 4k recording. All other features that are with Camera 5 are going to the 830 as well.

I wonder why they can't update like this. After all, this is exactly how Windows is updated.

Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk

Windows is an OS, firmware are the drivers, so No, this is not how windows is updated.
With PC's the drivers are all written by the respective hardware companies to work with the OS.



You can look at it this way. Windows phone 8.1 or 8.1.1 etc. is the software
(colored named update) is the firmware. Firmware is the driver package needed to run the hardware in the device.

So what the 830 has now is Windows phone 8.1.1 with essentially Cyan (although Microsoft added the confusion with putting the Denim name over Cyan for devices not compatible with the new driver package (firmware))

The Denim (driver package aka firmware) has to go through carrier approval / modification for the networks here in the US. My best guess is that Microsoft knowing the speed of the carriers pushed the 830 out before Christmas knowing it would not have access to camera 5 to get it out for holiday sales.
A simple "*some features may not be available at time of release* would have sufficed. That is where all the confusion is coming from.

This is not fragmentation, its older hardware not having the physical hardware to produce the results with the firmware. Fragmentation in Android happens because Google pushes the update to the manufacturers, who then write their customization of their version of android, and then push to the phones. The manufactures can have many devices on the market so they choose which ones they want to spend time and money to produce their flavor of android for. This generally leaves the low cost handsets out in the wind to rot, while the high end devices get the update for a period of time.

 

[Julian Lee2000]

Do you know if updates go through the same approval process for carriers in Canada? (Fido)

 

[a5cent]

Windows is an OS, firmware are the drivers....

Again, no. This notion is misleading and has caused some confusion.

Firmware is not "only" drivers.

It also includes all the software and configurational information that changes between variants of the same device. That includes carrier and oem related images (branding), dozens of configuration files, and also includes software that users directly interact with, such as entries in the settings menu, or even entire carrier/oem specific apps.

It's a lot more than what many think about when they hear "firmware".

 

[Silviu Bogusevschi]

I don't believe in fairy tales although sometimes they are entertaining and I believe less in those who have promise things but never delivered = Microsoft Windows Phone division.

Another example please?

Also, it has been also discussed (mainly on another places). Paul Thurott at least agrees that 830 will receive a further update to be able to use the Lumia Camera. What's the problem?

 

[Citizen X]

I know that they have 1 OS to maintain, but isn't the hardware different from the iphone 3 to the iphone 4 to the iphone 4s to the iphone 5 to the iphone 5s and iphone 5c to the iphone 6 and iphone 6 plus? wouldn't those require similar firmware updates?

Have you even bothered to see how the latest iOS performs on iphone 3, 4 and even 5?

My girlfriend's wifi stopped working entirely after update. No recourse. There are a million and one posts on the internet about those types of problems. I wonder why you are pretending those complaints don't exist.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

Another example please?

Also, it has been also discussed (mainly on another places). Paul Thurott at least agrees that 830 will receive a further update to be able to use the Lumia Camera. What's the problem?

and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.

 

[a5cent]

and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.

MS never made such a promise. That was never more than a rumour, primarily based on false understandings of MS' lifecycle policies. That falsehood was repeated so many times that it, in many forums, eventually came to be accepted as true, although it never was.

 

[Silviu Bogusevschi]

and who cares what Paul Thurott says. MS also said all Nokia Lumia 8 will receive OS updates for 2 years...that never happened...that a was a promise made of bs.

I guess everybody except you does care.

By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.

I don't see any reason to argue with you whatsoever unless you will learn more about the updating process, knowledge is always helpful.

 

[gMaesterUK]

By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.

I think he meant the Lumia 800/810 (win 7/7.5/7.8) and similar range, which were built off the old CE kernel which wasn't updatable. MS moved to the NT kernel for the new (win 8) range.

G.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

I guess everybody except you does care.

By Lumia 8 you mean Lumias on WP 8? If you are the one on Sprint or you have an Icon or whatever, then ask your carrier, not MS, since the software is available for LITERALLY every single WP8 Lumia.

I don't see any reason to argue with you whatsoever unless you will learn more about the updating process, knowledge is always helpful.

I know how updates are normally provided. I meant WP8 AND when MS said ALL Window Phones 8 would be supported for 2 FULL years they knew that not ALL carries provide currant OS updates, They mean MS would make sure, there were no caveats or * with footnotes saying otherwise. MS said ALL current WP8 phones WILL be supported. Full Stop. If they meant "only if such and such happens...then they were playing clever which makes them even more suspect

 

[a5cent]

when MS said ALL Window Phones 8 would be supported for 2 FULL years they knew that not ALL carries provide currant OS updates

No. wrong. MS said nothing about promising updates for a full two years (what would that even mean? 1 update? 20 updates? 0 updates?)

MS said two things:

a) all devices will be upgradable. That is true, as the OS can run on any WP8 device. However, saying every device is upgradable is not the same as saying every device will be upgraded. MS only ever mentioned the former, which some people took to mean the later.

b) MS will support each version of WP, for a duration of about two years, after release. That is true, because during the lifecycle support period, MS has staff on hand that are ready to help OEMs upgrade their devices to that latest version of WP. However, that promise is directed towards OEMs and how they would be supported in using that particular WP update. The lifecycle support period has nothing to do with end users and their desire for updates.

MS chose their words carefully (although they could have elaborated a bit more). As always, people just heard what they wanted to hear, rather than what MS actually said. The internet rumour mill did the rest.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

No. wrong. MS said nothing about promising updates for a full two years (what would that even mean? 1 update? 20 updates? 0 updates?)

MS said two things:

a) all devices will be upgradable. That is true, as the OS can run on any WP8 device. However, saying every device is upgradable is not the same as saying every device will be upgraded. MS only ever mentioned the former, which some people took to mean the later.

b) MS will support each version of WP, for a duration of about two years, after release. That is true, because during the lifecycle support period, MS has staff on hand that are ready to help OEMs upgrade their devices to that latest version of WP. However, that promise is directed towards OEMs and how they would be supported in using that particular WP update. The lifecycle support period has nothing to do with end users and their desire for updates.

MS chose their words carefully (although they could have elaborated a bit more). As always, people just heard what they wanted to hear, rather than what MS actually said. The internet rumour mill did the rest.

Perhaps I was wrong, and perhaps you could post the EXACT link showing me where you are correct ?
AND the numbers of APOLOGISTS for MS is astounding, they lie, mislead and outright fabricate press releases in order to boost sales.
The Lumia 830 fiasco is a perfect example and I'm not going to show you, they still have the same drivel on their Windows Mobile site.

 

[a5cent]

^ I wouldn't go so far as to say you were wrong. Most likely you were just repeating popular opinion.

However, it's impossible to prove a negative, meaning it's both theoretically and practically impossible to prove that NO promise was made. Trying to is an utter waste of time. All anyone can prove is that MS did in fact make such a promise, which coincidentally should be trivial if it actually occurred. That's what I'd invite you to try. I have. I couldn't. All you can find are blogs misinterpreting MS' statements in that way, but nothing coming directly from MS.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

"MS' statements" ?????

You can't even show links to "MS' statements" so why even reply, just to be contrary ?

Apologists need not (re) apply :straight:
Good luck :roll eyes: :roll eyes:

 

[bijak_riyandi]

I understand what is the root of this rant: misunderstanding in concept of updates, misreading in description, and impatience.

Have some patience, dude...