This is scary for w10m consumers

[theefman]

The actual customer in this scenario is the corporation's IT department or the bean counters, who calculated that porting their existing Windows software to iOS and Android would be far more expensive than just purchasing their 600 employees a W10M device which has more commonalities with their server and desktop environments.

Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?

Office for one is a first class citizen on ios and android and even comes bundled on several android devices so that advantage is gone. From reading various comments VPN on W10M lacks certain protocols that are available elsewhere so again, no reason to go W10M here again. Continuum? Take away the UWP factor (which wont matter as much to enterprises looking to run their familiar desktop programs) and any app virtualization solution from Citrix, VMware can fill that role so again W10M seems to have no advantage over other platforms.

Is W10M more secure? Maybe but that's more likely due to security by obscurity and after applying a typical MDM solution I think ios at least would be pretty close if not on par security wise; android of course is less suited here though they are now taking security more seriously so that too could change. The other factor then is mobile business apps and obviously W10M is clearly behind, so maybe I missed something but when you consider all factors objectively I don't really see the advantage W10M has that makes it more suitable for enterprises. And I think that fact is going to have a significant impact on any enterprise focus Microsoft now seems to be in favour of.

I just don't think MS actually fits their own target audience for W10M.

To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.

 

[a5cent]

You're right. It's better than the current situation, but they would have to put a lot of resources on it to make that happen. I'm not sure they think it would be worth it, seeing how little they care about the consumer market.

Of course MS cares about the consumer market. Xbox should be proof of that. MS has given up on making W10M relevant to consumers, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the consumer market as a whole. To be clear, my previous posts here revolved around how MS can make the UWP relevant to consumers. At no point was I suggesting MS could make W10M relevant to consumers. That ship has sailed.

MS already has a Windows Store and the Xbox ecosystem. Technically MS are already well on their way to being a viable UWP based Steam competitor, so I disagree that we're talking about a very substantial investment.

Either way, consumers must be part of the UWP equation. Like I said, UWP is the real deal. MS has bet very heavily on it succeeding. MS won't go out of business if it fails, but Windows will likely become largely irrelevant to most people if it does. There's so much riding on UWP's success that MS can't afford to let it slide the way they let W10M slide. There's not a lot that wouldn't be worth doing to establish the UWP as a software platform in as many markets as possible, particularly the consumer market.

 

[a5cent]

Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?

You're right. Traditional desktop/server software barely has any more commonalities with W10M than iOS and Android do, but I was talking about the UWP. For large corporations who develop their own LOB applications and who must support multiple form factors, the UWP does provide a very lucrative resource savings potential. That's the main reason the UWP exists.

None of this has anything to do with the standard services (Skype, Mail, VPN, etc) or applications (Office) most of us here talk about. That's the consumer's view of the software world which just isn't relevant to the point I'm making. As long as the standard set of software services and applications are available on W10M, that will be good enough. However, realize that those services and applications are side shows when compared to the custom built software that directly supports these corporations business processes.

To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.

I agree that it would be better if a larger part of MS used W10M (more dogfooding). We'll have to disagree on the rest though.

In my response to EspHack I emphasized how companies differ in terms of how computing hardware is allocated to employees and who makes the purchasing decisions. There are a lot more ways in which companies can differ from one another though. Take the typical MS representative. When such a person hits the road, they'll typically require no more than a note-taking application, MS Word, and possibly Power Point. That's it. The work they do is challenging, but their business processes that extend beyond the office don't require a lot of sophisticated software at all. Even if MS wanted to, given the work MS does, there is no way W10M could play a strategic role in that environment. Neither could iOS and neither could Android. What mobile devices MS' employees use just isn't of strategic importance. Period.

This is completely different from, say, multinational insurance companies, or a large U.N. regulatory body. They have very complicated business processes that span the globe. They employ hundreds or thousands of people whom they'd count as part of their mobile workforce. The business processes these employees adhere to can only be managed with very expensive custom built software. That's the type of environment I'm talking about here. For them, the hardware and software their mobile workforce carries is of strategic importance.

Whether MS does or doesn't use W10M themselves changes nothing about potential software development savings. When you can save 20 million annually by reducing the breadth of systems you must target, how credible we consumers think W10M is due to MS using or not using W10M themselves just doesn't matter.

To be honest, none of these large companies will be investing in UWP anytime soon. At least I'd be very surprised if that were happening now. However, the ability to offer such enterprise customers the option is certainly worthwhile. When that happens, how many people at MS use W10M will be pretty much irrelevant. How many people at MS use SQL Server? Right. Probably almost nobody. That doesn't mean it's not credible as a product. It's become very successful. I don't think W10M will become very successful, at least not in its current form, but the basic principle is the same.

You just have to forget about all the standard software services and applications you know about, even the packages targeting professionals like Dynamics, Matlab or Bookkeeping software. If that's all a business requires, then that's not the type of business MS is hoping to sell W10M to. Only if a business funds their own large software development departments is W10M possibly of interest.

 

[dgr_874]

one commenter on thurrot makes a good point

they asked if microsoft employees use wp internally, short answer is no, and yet THEY ARE an enterprise that uses windows, they fit their own target audience perfectly, and yet they dont use w10m phones, how does that look?

This is the part that really hit home for me. I can understand being the underdog and fighting your way up but, if the people who make and develop the phone don't have enough enthusiasm to use it internally, why (as a consumer) should I?

 

[Krystianpants]

Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?

Office for one is a first class citizen on ios and android and even comes bundled on several android devices so that advantage is gone. From reading various comments VPN on W10M lacks certain protocols that are available elsewhere so again, no reason to go W10M here again. Continuum? Take away the UWP factor (which wont matter as much to enterprises looking to run their familiar desktop programs) and any app virtualization solution from Citrix, VMware can fill that role so again W10M seems to have no advantage over other platforms.

Is W10M more secure? Maybe but that's more likely due to security by obscurity and after applying a typical MDM solution I think ios at least would be pretty close if not on par security wise; android of course is less suited here though they are now taking security more seriously so that too could change. The other factor then is mobile business apps and obviously W10M is clearly behind, so maybe I missed something but when you consider all factors objectively I don't really see the advantage W10M has that makes it more suitable for enterprises. And I think that fact is going to have a significant impact on any enterprise focus Microsoft now seems to be in favour of.



To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.

Well it's not for every company that's for sure. But even getting a few on it would be good. Heck they need to sign with some huge company everyone knows and it makes the news and other companies may follow. They already do business with NYPD and windows phone, it's nothing new. They did surface with the NFL. They just need a few big ones.

What can they offer? Well, continuum is a huge difference and providing the full solutions for these companies, outfitting all the desks of employees who will be using them with monitors, keyboards, mice and docks. Providing the laptop docks for users that travel. Providing support, even as far as providing classes to employees to learn how to use everything. On top of that? Providing it in a bundle with AT&T and all windows 10/office/azure licensing... yep you heard me, AT&T. Believe me it will happen. Their partnership isn't about consumers.

Security is another big one. Very tightly integrated solutions that allow for provisioning/logging/troubleshooting. One thing about BYOD is that the IT guy has no control over your phone, they really can't get into your privacy. You can pretend you didn't get a call but they won't really know. You won't give them the device to troubleshoot while you're using a temporary. They can't easily swap your phone if something happens to it or you lose it.

They will have separate enterprise stores for all sorts of business apps and believe me they will get them. This is the biggest business company in the world, people will not ignore them in this area. This is a different territory all together. If there are apps a big customer needs, MS will provide a temporary cloud solution and likely work with the company to get it on UWP. Every party would benefit. The company already knows that there is demand.

Sometimes the close association with business is their problem. Apple is associated with consumer facing products while MS with business. Windows is known as a more productive but less user friendly/intuitive OS. And when people hear "windows on phones?" they get confused because it's this complex thing. Windows 10 makes it way more productive but adds consumer value too. The start menu was designed to be simplistic and modern and so that people can identify it easily on any hardware using it. It's a mix of business/consumer. You have the simplicity of the start menu, one source for apps, notifications, integration and ease of use. You have added inking features, mapping services, cortana integration with office and other business apis .Business features can be added through the features section as well. You also have this other side with a diverse set of applications for getting your work done and using more advanced capabilities of those applications to increase efficiency. You also have access to more complex gaming that you would find on consoles. Developer features are now a huge part of windows 10. Even a linux subsystem so that they don't need to boot a linux virtual machine to do some coding/testing/scripting. Honestly this thing is made for everyone you can think of. But the beauty is that customers don't need to be exposed to anything than the simple side. It's still not finished obviously. The control panel settings are slowly being moved over to the easier and simpler settings menu. I think that they would benefit from having the settings part have "basic" and "advanced" radio buttons. This way people who don't want to see the more complex settings don't have to. Maybe that's what they will do, who knows. It would work well on Windows mobile too.

Anyways, if MS says they are getting into business,they mean business... hehe

 

[Joe920]

I know that's the official line. I just don't see it. A potential customer implies that there exists a demand that people are willing to spend money on to meet. Just having a computer sitting infront of 400 million faces that MS can push software too doesn't constitute demand.

Agreed. Still, even if UWP apps are perceived as pointless by the vast majority of users, if only 1% of users are interested, that's still 4 million potential users. A smaller market to be sure, but a market nonetheless. How this will develop is anyone's guess, but there are apps in the store, and they have not been downloaded zero times. I find it hard to believe that the number of decent apps will decrease, but who knows. I'm at least curious to see how things will develop.

 

[John Callaham]

Microsoft still rules in the enterprise with Windows so it makes sense to continue to support Windows 10 Mobile for that audience.

 

[kristalsoldier]

This is an excellent point! Was funny when @donasarkar was caught using iPhone 6S...for research of course. oh wait she was using it take selfies with friends

That IS research!!! Don't you see?:grincry:

 

[xandros9]

That IS research!!! Don't you see?:grincry:

Well I'm forming an opinion on iOS 10 right now so i broke out the 5c for the next couple days.

 

[Ish68]

Microsoft are the best example of stale software for Windows phones. Even the Lumia Offers app that comes installed on new phones, doesn't work. MS really need to get their so called software departments working harder to fix, update and create new mobile apps. After all MS should be creating full featured apps to show exactly what the phones are capable off and then other software companies or app creator's might have a good reason to work with windows mobiles, but until MS can support it's own phones, why should others. For over 5 years I have been contacting HSBC bank UK, Sky TV and others about apps for Windows phones and they don't want to know and I get the feeling by their replies, it's because they can see MS sitting back and doing nothing to help or support big businesses create apps for Windows mobiles. MS where here way before Apple & Android with phone enabled PDA's, but they just have no energy or excitement for their own product's, which is a shame because they could be the number one mobile OS out there.

Originally posted by a5cent

Originally Posted by George Ponder
What Microsoft needs to do is reassure the development community not to give up. My fear is that Microsoft may not kill off W10 Mobile, but the third party developers may.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that has already been killed?

The typical app that sells for $1.49 is unsustainable without a huge (i.e. mass market and consumer focused) user base. A focus on business that does little to nothing to excite consumers necessarily means abandoning that "huge" user base. That mass market user base is going away. It's already in its last throws. The app market will go along with it. Developers won't immediately remove their apps from the store, but the apps will grow stale and eventually be removed when they no longer work. IMHO we can already see the first signs of that.

IMHO much of the app development for W10M will likely be relegated to corporate stores rather than the public Windows Store where we get our apps from now.

That's one of the reasons I see PC and console gaming as a (last) potential option to save the UWP in the consumer space. At $60 it's possible to get the ball rolling without requiring a user base of quite the same size.

 

[a5cent]

Agreed. Still, even if UWP apps are perceived as pointless by the vast majority of users, if only 1% of users are interested, that's still 4 million potential users. A smaller market to be sure, but a market nonetheless. How this will develop is anyone's guess, but there are apps in the store, and they have not been downloaded zero times. I find it hard to believe that the number of decent apps will decrease, but who knows. I'm at least curious to see how things will develop.

Just to be clear, I did not say the number of decent UWP apps for the desktop will decrease. We're on the same page there. 4 million is not enough to sustain a $1.49 app market, but I still think we'll get a little bit of something on that front.



What will decrease over time are the number of WP8.x apps. I don't see enough of an incentive for developers to provide long term support for them, or to replace them with W10M apps. There is no money in either endeavor. I also don't see UWP on the desktop as something that would convince developers to make W10M apps (for the reasons previously mentioned). It's already proving hard enough to convince them to just consider UWP on the desktop. That's why it's the phone related subset of the app store that will shrink. That's my prediction anyway ☹

 

[techiez]

Just to be clear, I did not say the number of decent UWP apps for the desktop will decrease. We're on the same page there. 4 million is not enough to sustain a $1.49 app market, but I still think we'll get a little bit of something on that front.



What will decrease over time are the number of WP8.x apps. I don't see enough of an incentive for developers to provide long term support for them, or to replace them with W10M apps. There is no money in either endeavor. I also don't see UWP on the desktop as something that would convince developers to make W10M apps (for the reasons previously mentioned). It's already proving hard enough to convince them to just consider UWP on the desktop. That's why it's the phone related subset of the app store that will shrink. That's my prediction anyway ☹

+1
UWP apps have failed to take of on W10, dont see much change in this direction now.

 

[a5cent]

+1
UWP apps have failed to take of on W10, dont see much change in this direction now.

For now, yes. If MS gets far more aggressive they could make it very popular though. I tried to give one gaming related example of that back on page one. Will they get far more aggressive? Beats me...

 

[pedmar007]

Will Enterprises be so willing to put their trust in MS with their new direction seeing that as of current they can't get a stable version of W10M working on all of the devices eligible to run the OS. Makes no sense anyone telling me about the various devices out there capable of running it and the issues that can be encountered. As most would've said over the years how great and ease of use it is in comparison to the rival OSes. If so why is it causing so much trouble? I've never owned an Android or IOS device so can anyone say if when Apple and Google released their OS upgrades over these past years especially Google if many devices had these issues/bugs as well? Knowing that none of these Oses started out as we see them today.

 

[techiez]

Will Enterprises be so willing to put their trust in MS with their new direction seeing that as of current they can't get a stable version of W10M working on all of the devices eligible to run the OS. Makes no sense anyone telling me about the various devices out there capable of running it and the issues that can be encountered. As most would've said over the years how great and ease of use it is in comparison to the rival OSes. If so why is it causing so much trouble? I've never owned an Android or IOS device so can anyone say if when Apple and Google released their OS upgrades over these past years especially Google if many devices had these issues/bugs as well? Knowing that none of these Oses started out as we see them today.

Totally agree, look at the HP Elite X3 fiasco, The phone os simply not yet up to the potential of its hardware due to software issues. MS has always been lagging in mobile Os development, they keep on launching versions which do not have enough API's or dont support the latest processors or the 64 bit architecture.

 

[Wolfjt]

Yea its worrying. I heard anecdotally that some famous smartwatch/fitness band (forget which) company is in the middle of axing their Windows Phone projects in light of the news.

Unfortunately to me this looks like another (albeit slow-motion) soft reboot/direction change or "retrenching" that'll put off developers more.

I don't expect this "for-businesses" route to go over too well unless they create one hell of a business experience on 10 Mobile but seeing the effort the brass is putting in, I'm not going to expect anything BYOD or laptop/phone trumping anytime soon.

So far for what I'm seeing is mobile is too locked down, just like Apple. They really screwed the millions of people using Windows CE. CE was wonderfully customizable and now you can only do what MS allows for wish is too Apple like in my opinion. Android is now the way to go in the enterprise on mobile. AOSP is very very customizable and is now the new CE.

 

[Krystianpants]

+1
UWP apps have failed to take of on W10, dont see much change in this direction now.

What? Err ok...

So let me get this straight. Windows 10 is out for 1 year and it only has recently become stable with anniversary update. The recent anniversary update also just saw a wave of users upgrading again.

Developers are learning a new way of creating applications and you expect them all to have apps ready? Even facebook took a while just to get it into a slightly stable state for release. And it's been improving constantly since. Developing a big app takes time. APIs have also been enhanced in anniversary update and will continue to be enhanced bringing features that some developers may be waiting for. Windows 10 according to Satya himself isn't finished. It's a 2 year project. Anniversary update is year 1.

Compare that to the first year of iphone and it wasn't as huge as you think.

Next I want you to give me the stats on how many w32 applications came out vs how many UWP apps came out throughout the year. Heck other than games you probably have no idea. So w32 has failed? No one uses it anymore?

 

[Ten Four]

I understand the strategy to ignore consumer and go for the enterprise, but most enterprise clients that provide phones are already using iOS or Android and there is a lot of momentum there that will be hard to stop. Imagine the cost of switching out thousands of phones, apps, support, etc., and there will be massive resistance from management that knows and understands what they are already using. Plus, the CEO and everyone at the top doesn't like the idea of using anything but their own personal favorite phone ecosystem--they don't want to have to carry two phones, and they want their own personal apps to run on the company phone.

 

[pedmar007]

With all that MS has said or lack thereof, I'm giving this OS until the release of RS2 and after that I will decide if I'm willing to stick with it or not. Makes no sense sticking with an OS that the makers aren't ******* grateful enough to say thanks for sticking with us throughout the ups and downs and the failed promises. These MS tech coders can't be that good anyways knowing they're writing code that essentially keeps them employed or not. How can they if to date they have not released anything that should've kept the former windows users on the platform, and most now after reading latest MS plans for future are looking to leave as well. The thing is for me I don't like the Android OS and IOS is too static for me but IOS is the closest to Windows as I'm going to get so like I said after RS2 drops I'll know my direction there after. Still love this OS vey much, don't think there'll ever be anything that could replace the live tiles for me and the simplicity of it all. Just wished that MS could've done all of this with wp8.1 and not w10m. All they would've had to do is the more intricate features advise the users that more modern hardware will be needed to run optimally and it's advisable to upgrade devices. Then the release of the 950/XL would've been a hit and the HP X3 even moreso now, going into the enterprise features and upgraded hardware for those businesses. Had that happened this OS may not be a direct rival to IOS or Android but at least we consumers would be in a place that is comfortable and no sense of doubt.

 

[techiez]

What? Err ok...

So let me get this straight. Windows 10 is out for 1 year and it only has recently become stable with anniversary update. The recent anniversary update also just saw a wave of users upgrading again.

Developers are learning a new way of creating applications and you expect them all to have apps ready? Even facebook took a while just to get it into a slightly stable state for release. And it's been improving constantly since. Developing a big app takes time. APIs have also been enhanced in anniversary update and will continue to be enhanced bringing features that some developers may be waiting for. Windows 10 according to Satya himself isn't finished. It's a 2 year project. Anniversary update is year 1.

Compare that to the first year of iphone and it wasn't as huge as you think.

Next I want you to give me the stats on how many w32 applications came out vs how many UWP apps came out throughout the year. Heck other than games you probably have no idea. So w32 has failed? No one uses it anymore?

Well I very well know what it takes to develop an app.

And I know it has been a year only for windows 10 and I'm not forgetting WP7, 7.5, WP8/windows 8, 8.1 and RT etc. Nor will developers forget this.

simple point is whats in it for developers to adopt UWP? if windows flourished on different devices then it makes sense to adopt to UWP else it doesnt make sense to develop an app just for Windows 10. why? well if you could cater to PC users via a website or your native app, why would you bother with the developer registration etc needed to publish your app to W store and also share 30% of your sales with MS?
MS has made its point clear that its future mobile strategy is not for consumers so forget abt targetting mobile users, all that is left is xbox, if that catches up then UWP will have some hope else it will die.

When you see facebook etc bringing their apps, it is because MS is paying the big names to develop UWP apps, is it going to pay every single developer? No. I dont think the big and famous apps were made UWP because they believed in the billion devices story of MS.