Unreasonable rants again from WP owners

[EBUK]

I've only just moved to WP from Android. The lack of OFFICIAL apps isn't too great a concern for me at the moment as I'm not a youth any longer so social networking is not a fad that engages me. Secret, Vine, Facebook, Instagram etc are not a major concern; if there are alternatives that work JUST AS WELL as the official app, then I'm happy.

It does bother me that MS would want to give Cortana away to iOS and Android when they already have their own assistants, but should I care? Cortana isn't great in the UK. It seems really only to function properly in the US/Canada. Cortana on our rivals' handsets is probably a long way off.

If MS could release user-installable versions to run of specific hardware configurations (specific processors) that would be great. Bun unlikely to happen.

I don't think the rants are unreasonable; people are frustrated that MS isn't doing more to promote WP.

How about promotions - a free (entry level) WinPhone when you buy a Win 8.1 PC / Laptop / Surface Pro? Anything to give more people the opportunity to sample what WP can do.

 

[prasath1234]

Agree op Cortana would be great for our fellow android ND ios users.we have got more people to test her that makes her a great personal assistant.i will stick to wp for live tiles nd neat interface.
From Windows phone

 

[spaulagain]

Congratulations, you just got yourself onto my ignore list!!!!

Congratulations, I don't care! I've been reading all your posts, and nothing of value anyways. You are definitely one of the wah wahs.

When people continue to complain and ignore all reasonable answers that we've provided, they become wah wahs.

 

[spaulagain]

I would guess, a lot of people in the techmedia would support Microsoft if they ditch WP in favor of a software only mobile strategy.

They are "ditching" WP. It's called Windows 10. All this doom and gloom about WP is just silly. Windows 10 makes it completely irrelevant for the most part.

 

[hidayat225]

Ditching is certainly not the right word though, 'compromising' is a better word for this. It's like they are not proud enough for Windows Phone like how Apple treat the iPhone. Cortana everywhere is cool though but in reality, they are just giving the competition ammunition.

 

[Ebuka Allison]

They are "ditching" WP. It's called Windows 10. All this doom and gloom about WP is just silly. Windows 10 makes it completely irrelevant for the most part.

Hope so,

 

[kristalsoldier]

Congratulations, I don't care! I've been reading all your posts, and nothing of value anyways. You are definitely one of the wah wahs.

When people continue to complain and ignore all reasonable answers that we've provided, they become wah wahs.

You have been going on about this for sometime know. While I appreciate your loyalty to MS and the Windows Phone platform, you seem to be blind to the latter's shortcoming and to the obtuseness of MS' strategy here. Let me give you an example of at least of one problem with the WP platform.

I own and use a Lumia 830 and a Surface Pro 3. Both are my daily drivers and I use them for work and for personal work. And, despite my critiques, I thoroughly enjoy using both (as I do other MS software and services). In fact, I would say that I am embedded with the MS eco-system.

So, here is the example. At my place of work, we use Oracle Calendar. Currently, if I want to use the calendar, the only option I have is to access it through the web access page on my SP3. That's fine if I am sitting around at my desk or am otherwise static. However, when I am mobile - say, moving from one meeting to another - then I need to access it from my phone. If I had an iPhone, I would use something like this: Tasks+Cal+Sync (ios) | AppCrawlr. But I don't have or use an iPhone. So, I looked in the Windows Phone Store and found nothing. I asked around to people who know a lot more than me about these things and they all told me that there is nothing in WP that can do this. So, what are my options? Remember, I am talking about connecting to and syncing with Oracle calendar not some obscure app that connects me to some obscure store hidden away in some dark and forgotten alleyway. Effectively, I am out of luck.

Now, you could say that it is Oracle's problem and yes, in a sense, it is. But notice though the app that I linked to above is not an "official" Oracle app. It is made by some third party developer. So, we can chalk this up to lack of developer interest. My question is why? Commercially speaking it may not make sense for a developer to build something like this for a market as small as one that Win Phone represents. This means that for active developer interest, the market needs to expand. With MS now trying to expand their software (OneDrive, Office etc.) to other platforms, the imperative for a customer to get into a Win Phone is low because if the customer has a phone running an alternate OS, why would he or she opt for a platform that remains in its early infancy? Also consider a new potential customer for a WP. If that person asked - hey! can a WP help me to sync and be connected to my work's calendar? The answer has to be no (at least as of now) and that is precisely where the MS market-size becomes a problem. And, by the looks of it, MS' strategy - for devices and services - seems to undermining the tough task of propelling WP devices into the market place.

 

[spaulagain]

You have been going on about this for sometime know. While I appreciate your loyalty to MS and the Windows Phone platform, you seem to be blind to the latter's shortcoming and to the obtuseness of MS' strategy here. Let me give you an example of at least of one problem with the WP platform.

I own and use a Lumia 830 and a Surface Pro 3. Both are my daily drivers and I use them for work and for personal work. And, despite my critiques, I thoroughly enjoy using both (as I do other MS software and services). In fact, I would say that I am embedded with the MS eco-system.

So, here is the example. At my place of work, we use Oracle Calendar. Currently, if I want to use the calendar, the only option I have is to access it through the web access page on my SP3. That's fine if I am sitting around at my desk or am otherwise static. However, when I am mobile - say, moving from one meeting to another - then I need to access it from my phone. If I had an iPhone, I would use something like this: Tasks+Cal+Sync (ios) | AppCrawlr. But I don't have or use an iPhone. So, I looked in the Windows Phone Store and found nothing. I asked around to people who know a lot more than me about these things and they all told me that there is nothing in WP that can do this. So, what are my options? Remember, I am talking about connecting to and syncing with Oracle calendar not some obscure app that connects me to some obscure store hidden away in some dark and forgotten alleyway. Effectively, I am out of luck.

Now, you could say that it is Oracle's problem and yes, in a sense, it is. But notice though the app that I linked to above is not an "official" Oracle app. It is made by some third party developer. So, we can chalk this up to lack of developer interest. My question is why? Commercially speaking it may not make sense for a developer to build something like this for a market as small as one that Win Phone represents. This means that for active developer interest, the market needs to expand. With MS now trying to expand their software (OneDrive, Office etc.) to other platforms, the imperative for a customer to get into a Win Phone is low because if the customer has a phone running an alternate OS, why would he or she opt for a platform that remains in its early infancy? Also consider a new potential customer for a WP. If that person asked - hey! can a WP help me to sync and be connected to my work's calendar? The answer has to be no (at least as of now) and that is precisely where the MS market-size becomes a problem. And, by the looks of it, MS' strategy - for devices and services - seems to undermining the tough task of propelling WP devices into the market place.

I've been on WP since day one, I know all its issue and admit to them at anytime. I've acknowledged the app gap plenty of times. If anything, I should be leading the charge as a WP ****** with your ideas of strategy.

But your point is just a really poor business practice. No intelligent company sacrifices one of their largest and most successful products in efforts to give their small, least impactful product a slight boost that may help growth over 3-4 years. That's straight up stupid.

Here's Microsoft's situation with Office...

1. Office is one of their biggest and most entrenched products.

2. Office is now a very successful subscription based revenue source.

3. Office is also facing real threats from products like Google Docs. For example, my company PAYS for Office 365 and yet much of our new management is using Google Docs. Why? Because they use non Windows devices, MacBooks, iPhones, Android phones/tablets. How long before they decide to just kill our subscription to Office 365?

4. Office has users from all walks of life and that use all sorts of devices. Most people that have an Android or iPhone have a Windows PC somewhere, and probably use Office or at least have in the past.

5. Users are now using their mobile devices to replace or supplement their old Windows PCs more and more. So if they want to do Word processing, spreadsheets, etc. They are going to try and find something they can use on these mobile devices, especially tablets like the iPad.

6. If Office is not available they are going to look at Google Docs or some other alternative. Once they figure out that Google Docs can do 99% of what they need, do you think they are going to keep using Office? Or even think about paying a subscription fee for it? No.

7. Now MS needs to support these alternative platforms with Office to keep people hooked on the product. Or they risk losing huge revenue generator and one of the most loyal base of users.


Here's Microsoft's situation with Windows Phone...

1. WP has been late and behind since day one.

2. Year by year they've begun to catch up, but the market has saturated heavily in the US and a very uphill battle at this point.

3. With low market share, they can't get dev support. But without dev support, they can't get more user for higher market share.

4. If they limit their big core products to WP, they might get some people to convert if they are that heavily dependent on Office, etc. But most people aren't. Most people are more focused on the other apps people use on iOS.

5. If they open up their big core products, they might **** off some small group of WP users. And MAYBE lose a little bit of the arleady small drive for users to switch to WP.

6. In fact, WP has had Office for 4+ years while the others platforms have not. And look at our market share now? It still sucks. So the entire argument that they should keep Office exclusive is flawed.

7. WP really is a no go at this point for market share. The only way to get more market share is through unsaturated markets. Hence the low budget phones for international/developing countries.

8. WP could gain dev support if it share a dev community and environment with something that already has solid market share. Hence core Windows. If Windows 10 can get all the W8 users, AND all the users that have held out because they don't like Windows 8, AND the Enterprise users who will be ready to upgrade from W7 over the next couple years, then Windows 10 will be HUGE. And an excellent foundation to continuously serve updates and no longer have legacy users to cater to.

9. With Windows 10, WP won't even exist. It's all just Windows 10. So at this point, devs should be pretty comfortable investing in building apps for Microsoft's platform as the same OS and app environment will be on Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, Phones, IoTs, and even TVs, maybe cars, etc.?



So through all of this, it makes far more sense for MS to serve the revenue generating products in their portfolio then to cut their balls off just to provides the smallest boost for it's least successful product. And with Windows 10 essentially neutralizing the WP market share issue in the near future anyways, it would make that sacrifice even more foolish and wasteful.

Anyone switching to WP right now, or anytime within the next year should most definitely check for the apps they need first. Because if MS can't get devs to build for it as it is now, then no one can. And you are better off buying an iPhone or Android phone if you really need those apps. Some people, like me, have all the apps they need on WP. So it works great for them. But I don't expect MS to sacrifice their left leg so they can save their right foot's little toe. That would be worse for the entire MS ecosystem including WP in the long run.

 

[tgp]

Excellent post! In case you don't realize it, it's a change from your normal tune! :wink: I know you don't think so, but often you come across as "Microsoft can do no wrong, the others can do nothing right." This post is very objective and to-the-point. I do have a question about the following points though:

8. WP could gain dev support if it share a dev community and environment with something that already has solid market share. Hence core Windows. If Windows 10 can get all the W8 users, AND all the users that have held out because they don't like Windows 8, AND the Enterprise users who will be ready to upgrade from W7 over the next couple years, then Windows 10 will be HUGE. And an excellent foundation to continuously serve updates and no longer have legacy users to cater to.

9. With Windows 10, WP won't even exist. It's all just Windows 10. So at this point, devs should be pretty comfortable investing in building apps for Microsoft's platform as the same OS and app environment will be on Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, Phones, IoTs, and even TVs, maybe cars, etc.?

In theory, this makes a lot of sense. In real life, I'm a little less optimistic that it will play out this way. For one thing, do W8 users actually use apps from the Store? I questions the value of Windows customers to developers looking for users. Obviously RT users are valid customers, but that market is very small, and it seems that it has been dropped. The devices will be leaving the market due to not being replenished. Also, the Modern UI will no longer be in your face with W10, which could mean that the Store will be used even less.

The other issue is that businesses are just now upgrading, or just did upgrade, their PCs from XP to W7. They won't be upgrading again anytime soon. In the business environment, W8 has little, if any, benefit over W7. While W10 will have some advantages, it probably won't be enough to cause a major upgrade wave. W7 has extended support until 2020, and I don't think we'll see a big shift in market share until closer to that time.

 

[iamtim]

For example, my company PAYS for Office 365 and yet much of our new management is using Google Docs.

You should show them OneDrive and the free Office Online stuff.

With Windows 10, WP won't even exist. It's all just Windows 10.

Not that I disagree with you, but isn't that largely a semantic argument? I mean, there will still be a difference between Windows 10 for the phone and Windows 10 for the desktop. They might both use the same APIs, but internally they won't be the same. And developers will still have to code for the different interface paradigms that the different hardware presents.

 

[spaulagain]

You should show them OneDrive and the free Office Online stuff.

Ya, I've shown several of them now. They are starting to turn around about it. I also explained that even with Windows 7 you can open a file from OneDrive online, with the full app on your desktop, and CTRL-S with save changes directly back to the cloud. No need to re-upload or anything. Not to mention the unlimited storage in the near future.

I gotta give MS credit, Office 365 is one of the most thorough and impressive SASS/Software subscription packages out there. If only Adobe would take some hints (CC is such a rip off).

 

[kristalsoldier]

But your point is just a really poor business practice. No intelligent company sacrifices one of their largest and most successful products in efforts to give their small, least impactful product a slight boost that may help growth over 3-4 years. That's straight up stupid[/B]

I think you are misinterpreting and misunderstanding what I am trying to convey. The matter is not simply a black and white one. When I critique MS' strategy, I am not saying that they should not spread their software and services to the extent possible to other platforms. Instead, I am saying that while doing so, they should always give the competitive advantage to their in-house platform. My working assumption is that MS is not going to abandon their mobile platform (in this specific instance). This may mean staggering the release time, introducing new features first to their own platform and then releasing it to others and other subtle means by which to suggest that there is some value in choosing their platform. The serves two purposes - (1) it satiates the current users of the platform who do not feel left out and (2) it gives potential users of the platform an additional argument - however temporary it may be - to say there is an advantage to using a Windows platform.

Your arguments are progressively becoming simply exercises in simplistic reductionism and as such while they are in some instances insightful, given the vehemence with which they are presented and the reductionism that they seem to invoke, their value is sadly diminished. This is a pity because you do have some very good points.

 

[techiez]

Excellent post! In case you don't realize it, it's a change from your normal tune! :wink: I know you don't think so, but often you come across as "Microsoft can do no wrong, the others can do nothing right." This post is very objective and to-the-point. I do have a question about the following points though:



In theory, this makes a lot of sense. In real life, I'm a little less optimistic that it will play out this way. For one thing, do W8 users actually use apps from the Store? I questions the value of Windows customers to developers looking for users. Obviously RT users are valid customers, but that market is very small, and it seems that it has been dropped. The devices will be leaving the market due to not being replenished. Also, the Modern UI will no longer be in your face with W10, which could mean that the Store will be used even less.

The other issue is that businesses are just now upgrading, or just did upgrade, their PCs from XP to W7. They won't be upgrading again anytime soon. In the business environment, W8 has little, if any, benefit over W7. While W10 will have some advantages, it probably won't be enough to cause a major upgrade wave. W7 has extended support until 2020, and I don't think we'll see a big shift in market share until closer to that time.

Exactlyy, I dont know why ppl hope W10 will be a magic and bring in all devs, enterprises will block store, consumers - would still prefer to use regular way, How many W8 users have been using store n apps on laptops and convertibles?

 

[techiez]

I mean, there will still be a difference between Windows 10 for the phone and Windows 10 for the desktop. They might both use the same APIs, but internally they won't be the same. And developers will still have to code for the different interface paradigms that the different hardware presents.

This is what ppl should understand, MS has not said code once n deploy everywhere. They say most of the code is reusable but if devs are not coding for WP now,they wont code later.

and office, skype, onedrive availability are understandable but why even games like AOE are to be launched on IOS & Android.

 

[spaulagain]

I think you are misinterpreting and misunderstanding what I am trying to convey. The matter is not simply a black and white one. When I critique MS' strategy, I am not saying that they should not spread their software and services to the extent possible to other platforms. Instead, I am saying that while doing so, they should always give the competitive advantage to their in-house platform. My working assumption is that MS is not going to abandon their mobile platform (in this specific instance). This may mean staggering the release time, introducing new features first to their own platform and then releasing it to others and other subtle means by which to suggest that there is some value in choosing their platform. The serves two purposes - (1) it satiates the current users of the platform who do not feel left out and (2) it gives potential users of the platform an additional argument - however temporary it may be - to say there is an advantage to using a Windows platform.

Your arguments are progressively becoming simply exercises in simplistic reductionism and as such while they are in some instances insightful, given the vehemence with which they are presented and the reductionism that they seem to invoke, their value is sadly diminished. This is a pity because you do have some very good points.

My arguments are simplified? How is listing nearly 20 different factors a simplified argument?

Your argument is the one that is simplified. Saying that MS should always make their apps on their own platform better than their apps on other platforms is a VERY simplified argument. It ignores many factors when it comes to planning, development, and release of those apps. Not to mention the various business reasons for it.

Office has been better on WP/Windows for 4 years. It's just now within the past 6 months that the WP apps have been surpassed by the release of iOS apps. Big deal.

By your argument MS should have either...

1. Shelved features in the iOS app before they released it. Removing functionality not because it doesn't work, but because it needs to please the small WP user base.

Or...

2. Doubled up on resources to add features to the WP apps even though they are already working on a better Universal app to be released with Windows 10. Basically releasing updates that will be meaningless in 6-8 months. Meanwhile wasting resources that could have been used to develop more important apps and or features in WP/Windows.

Again, that's counter productive for any business and is an argument that truly tries to reduce everything to a WPs user experience rather than allllll the other users MS has for Office, etc.

 

[spaulagain]

This is what ppl should understand, MS has not said code once n deploy everywhere. They say most of the code is reusable but if devs are not coding for WP now,they wont code later.

and office, skype, onedrive availability are understandable but why even games like AOE are to be launched on IOS & Android.

A universal code base that just needs tweaks to the UI makes it pretty damn easy to develop for all screen sizes.

I build responsive websites that share all the same code. It just takes about 10-15% more CSS to accommodate different screen sizes. It's a clear win for me as a developer to put that little extra effort in to know that my website is accessible to A LOT more people.

And a properly designed Responsive website doesn't even refactor for specific devices, it refactors for screen size and touch. So even at weird screen sizes that not many people have, I still make sure it looks good.

Developers are already doing this variable UI with essentially the same code base on iOS and Android. I'm not sure it's as simple doing that as MS is making it. So clearly devs are willing to do it. But market share is a factor of course. But at the same time the cut off for screen sizes is become a very grey line. You have tablets that are almost as small as phones, phones that are almost as big as tablets, tablets that can be docked in as a desktop, laptops that can convert to tablets and have small screens, devices that can cast to TVs and have a much larger view screen, etc.

Any developers regardless of platform that doesn't recognize the need to address these variables is a damn fool *****. Trying to isolate your app to a select screen size user base is going to prove itself to be short lived.

In addition, MS is pretty good at providing a lot of tools. Depending on the complexity of the app. Devs can have a lot of that work done via tools MS provides that already reshape the UI for various screen sizes.



So yes, Windows 10 might not be the magic wand that gets everyone to dev for all Windows devices. But if that doesn't work, nothing will.

 

[spaulagain]

Exactlyy, I dont know why ppl hope W10 will be a magic and bring in all devs, enterprises will block store, consumers - would still prefer to use regular way, How many W8 users have been using store n apps on laptops and convertibles?

MS has already stated that Enterprises will be able to create their own filtered store. Allowing companies to limit what apps can and can't be installed by the end user. My company doesn't block my browser from going to IMDb, Facebook, Twitter, etc. So why wouldn't they let me download the equivalent apps? And MS will be adding legacy/x86 applications to the store. Making it a great way for Enterprises to manage those apps for their users.

I think people don't use apps if they are slow or don't have a good feature set. But people have been using dedicated applications for the desktop for years. That's because they are more powerful, more integrated with the OS, and available offline.

I know personally I use the browser on desktop instead of the app mainly because of this..

1. The apps are slow
2. The apps are missing 50% of the features as opposed to the website
3. The apps interior my flow (are full screen).

MS is fixing that last one, and the other two are up to the developer. But developers want dedicated apps because they can do a lot more with them and integrate their service into the users OS and other third party apps. You simply can't do that as seamlessly or at all with web based applications.


It may be true that Windows 10 won't bring any developers. If that's the case, Windows is forever stuck as a desktop OS. There is nothing else MS can do at that point.

If that turns out to be the case, then it's even better that MS invested in bring their other services to the other platforms.

 

[spaulagain]

Excellent post! In case you don't realize it, it's a change from your normal tune! :wink: I know you don't think so, but often you come across as "Microsoft can do no wrong, the others can do nothing right." This post is very objective and to-the-point. I do have a question about the following points though:



In theory, this makes a lot of sense. In real life, I'm a little less optimistic that it will play out this way. For one thing, do W8 users actually use apps from the Store? I questions the value of Windows customers to developers looking for users. Obviously RT users are valid customers, but that market is very small, and it seems that it has been dropped. The devices will be leaving the market due to not being replenished. Also, the Modern UI will no longer be in your face with W10, which could mean that the Store will be used even less.

The other issue is that businesses are just now upgrading, or just did upgrade, their PCs from XP to W7. They won't be upgrading again anytime soon. In the business environment, W8 has little, if any, benefit over W7. While W10 will have some advantages, it probably won't be enough to cause a major upgrade wave. W7 has extended support until 2020, and I don't think we'll see a big shift in market share until closer to that time.

W8 actually has a lot of advantages for Enterprises to upgrade to it. But A) They just upgraded to W7 and B) They are shying away because of the UI issues.

That being said, Windows 10 will be the last major version of Windows. After that there will just be rolling releases. While Enterprises may not upgrade right away, I think you can bet that some if not many will upgrade a lot sooner than they did when on XP.

The fact that XP was still used in most enterprises 10+ years after it's release is straight up disturbing. It should have never gone that far. Part of that was because the jump from XP to W7 was a HUGE jump. They were very different OSes. W7 to W8, or W10 is a much softer upgrade path. And W10 will only make all that upgrading a lot easier as well.

So yes, Enterprises may not upgrade to W10 right away, but I think they would be damn fools to wait 5-7+ years more like they did with XP. Especially when you consider how much better W8/10 is with the OneDrive integration, speed, size of install, flexibility across multiple devices, etc.

I'm already "forcing" my company to let me use Windows 8 on my new laptop. After all, they let all the other devs use OSX/MacBook Pros. Seems only fair to support my desired OS.

 

[iamtim]

Saying that MS should always make their apps on their own platform better than their apps on other platforms is a VERY simplified argument. It ignores many factors when it comes to planning, development, and release of those apps. Not to mention the various business reasons for it.

I completely concur with this. I said in another thread related to this issue that many WP fans are missing the forest for the trees; it looks to me like kristalsoldier falls into that group.

 

[spaulagain]

Here, kristalsoldier, listen to Paul Thurrot's explanation about Windows Phone and the new Office...

Windows Weekly 388 | TWiT.TV

He's actually very logical and explains it very well.