Warm Welcome to the Duo

[TechFreak1]

The thing is, you look at the rise of google; they piggy backed off existing systems to entrench themselves and become a huge company in the process, by being able to compete against microsoft and in mobile succeed against MS.

True and Microsoft's mishandling of the mobile space is well documented. So there is no point rehashing it as it won't change anything.

So, I think MS strategy is basically realising that they lost so now they can clean the slate and start from a position where all options are back on the table in order to try and make money. Ultimately they're deciding in the mobile space, to leave it to google to do all the heavy lifting with maintaining android, they just parachute in with their apps and services. Google owns the platform, but they're also having massive anti-trust issues, MS not being involved with the platform, they can make huge strides and possibly direct things towards windows, if that's their plan.

That would have worked if experiences were siloed i.e. you use your work computer at work then you having to use a storage medium of sorts as the interconnect for doing work at home. It's that familiarity and necessity that enabled Microsoft to fulfill their goal of having a PC in every home. In this era, the aspect of data as a commodity was the stuff of Science Fiction.

But now, it's all about the services and ecosystem.

Apple imo got this very early on therefore started tying people to their services and hardware ecosystem therefore making it harder for people to switch.

What Microsoft failed to grasp was the fluidity of use for every single person and what I mean by that there was no clear pathway from each stage of kernel / code unification to another at a service, app and hardware level.

We saw this in the fits and starts of each variant of the windows ecosystem. I say variant because that's what they were - before Apple came into the scene Microsoft was doing well in Mobile with PDAs and business orientated devices. Also let's not forget the custom rom scene based on WM6.x. But all that got hacked off at each stage of kernel / code unification.

Google on the other hand didn't constantly reboot their mobile platform, sure it is more fragmented than a crushed egg shell. But one can argue Microsoft introduced fragmentation into their own platform with siloed experiences i.e. Advanced Bing functionality of Wp7/8 was locked to the US, same with Cortana and same with Microsoft pay. Then you throw into each fit and start on the mobile space as mentioned above.

The more entrenched people are in Google's web the harder it will be to break from it. The best way to find this out for yourself is to install noscript and mark:

google.com, gstatic.com, googleajaxapis.com etc as untrusted.

You will be surprised how many websites do not function correctly, the primary reason that's visibly evident is that all three are required by many websites for recaptcha to work.

Additionally, many public sector websites that I've come across use a variant of google forms now which runs contrary to the GDPR directive from the EU as it effectively offloads liability and removes accountability (an organisation must have a designated data controller who oversees the process, data management and access - who then is held to account by independent data audits - this is was done to prevent another breach like Equifax, Experian etc).

As it would practically impossible to do a data audit - to ensure any data held is used for a specific purpose only then discarded. Thus making one pillar of that directive - that everyone has the right to privacy on the internet unenforceable.

Furthermore, the Transport for London's own journey planner used to use their own database for journey planning but now is heavily dependent on Google... which feeds of the TFL database for transport timings..

In addition to this I have seen a few small prints in websites running google analytics that a person's name, address, IP address may not be randomised in the event of system error. That's a legal disclaimer to safeguard the business. Understandably so, to presume anything software based is infallible is profoundly naive.

You get the picture, no organisation should ever have access to that much personal data.

I do agree with the UWP thing. I can't see it going anywhere, the app store looks kind of done, and I don't think they're placing a whole lot of effort there. The Neo possibly goes some way to attempt to address it, but I just don't see it taking off. It's kind of like the surface studio; it will appeal to a very niche set of users, and that's about it.

I have no idea whether a Windows 10X duo would have a better chance, I get the feeling that the android device ultimately won't have any apps designed around its advantages, it's all going to have to rely on the OS to do anything.

Microsoft imo shot off limbs of UWP when the mobile division for axed, that sums up my thoughts on that matter lol. Because if I was to go into detail about what can be done to improve developer interaction of UWA i'd end up typing endlessly until I became skeleton.

But it all would hinge on Microsoft having their own windows based mobile end point not based on their competitor's platform because nothing good ultimately will come of it.

 

[Ryujingt3]

I'm anticipating that either a) I won't get this where I am based until 2021, or, b) I won't get it at all, and I will have to import it. From my experience as an Xbox owner, MS only supports about ten countries. For the Duo to do well, they need to support all major countries.

 

[TechFreak1]

I'm anticipating that either a) I won't get this where I am based until 2021, or, b) I won't get it at all, and I will have to import it. From my experience as an Xbox owner, MS only supports about ten countries. For the Duo to do well, they need to support all major countries.

There is some, fiscal logic to that limited availability although one practically most consumers don't think about and irritating for techies who want to be on the bleeding edge - is that lower region availability reduces overheads and therefore artificially inflating profits.

We saw this with Surface as it was very limited in availability and sometimes came to a region very late. Therefore with this limited availability Surface became quite profitable in a short space of time = that's not testament to the asinine fiscal logic applied by the penny pinchers but speaks volume about the quality, design and efforts put into the Surface Devices by the Surface Division.

The same can be said about the Duo, it's a remarkable feat of engineering. Fortunately London now has a Microsoft store so people here in London don't have to wait for half arsed displays for the Duo to go out and check it out lol.

I do however think there is a catch 22 scenario though if the Duo does takes off - some will say it's because of the Android o/s and therefore everything else has to be android. Which would be part of the equation - it would be down to halo effect of the Surface devices and the fact the many of us were hoping for such a device to be launched by Microsoft.

The unmentioned part of that equation is confirmation bias, both Apple and Google it a pass when Microsoft does not. So here's hoping the Neo also takes off more so than the Duo as that would enforce the requirement that Duo Gen 2 needs to have two variants - one for Android and for Windows.

Because unfortunately Microsoft have trapped themselves into that conundrum as if they only released an android variant they will have to start adding android based code to the kernel for tighter integration thus all that security headaches that brings and if they only do an Windows only variant - presuming UWA is still in the same state as now -they cut of an upgrade path for the early adopters.

However if Microsoft is able to get the key apps and services back into UWP with the Neo there is a upgrade path for the early adopters as all key apps are cloud based now.

Never the less there is a long time until Autumn 2020 so a lot things can change, I'm really curious what they plan to do about the camera.

Anyway... I'll stop typing now before I type another novel lol...

 

[Ryujingt3]

There is some, fiscal logic to that limited availability although one practically most consumers don't think about and irritating for techies who want to be on the bleeding edge - is that lower region availability reduces overheads and therefore artificially inflating profits.

We saw this with Surface as it was very limited in availability and sometimes came to a region very late. Therefore with this limited availability Surface became quite profitable in a short space of time = that's not testament to the asinine fiscal logic applied by the penny pinchers but speaks volume about the quality, design and efforts put into the Surface Devices by the Surface Division.

The same can be said about the Duo, it's a remarkable feat of engineering. Fortunately London now has a Microsoft store so people here in London don't have to wait for half arsed displays for the Duo to go out and check it out lol.

I do however think there is a catch 22 scenario though if the Duo does takes off - some will say it's because of the Android o/s and therefore everything else has to be android. Which would be part of the equation - it would be down to halo effect of the Surface devices and the fact the many of us were hoping for such a device to be launched by Microsoft.

The unmentioned part of that equation is confirmation bias, both Apple and Google it a pass when Microsoft does not. So here's hoping the Neo also takes off more so than the Duo as that would enforce the requirement that Duo Gen 2 needs to have two variants - one for Android and for Windows.

Because unfortunately Microsoft have trapped themselves into that conundrum as if they only released an android variant they will have to start adding android based code to the kernel for tighter integration thus all that security headaches that brings and if they only do an Windows only variant - presuming UWA is still in the same state as now -they cut of an upgrade path for the early adopters.

However if Microsoft is able to get the key apps and services back into UWP with the Neo there is a upgrade path for the early adopters as all key apps are cloud based now.

Never the less there is a long time until Autumn 2020 so a lot things can change, I'm really curious what they plan to do about the camera.

Anyway... I'll stop typing now before I type another novel lol...

I enjoyed reading that. And you are right that if the Dup takes off then Android will get all the credit. I think Android is the long term solution for MS, like BlackBerry.

 

[TechFreak1]

I enjoyed reading that. And you are right that if the Dup takes off then Android will get all the credit. I think Android is the long term solution for MS, like BlackBerry.

Thanks lol. I wholeheartedly disagree (hardly surprising :winktongue- Android is not long term solution rather a stop gap of Microsoft's own making.

I have nothing personally against Android.

It's just far too insecure - just to do a search on - "Android Operating System vulnerabilities", Windows already has plenty of exploits, vulnerabilities and issues etc rather not add another massive attack vector onto that lol.

Let's not forget it allows Google to dominate further because you cannot get the 'android apps' without Google's playstore which means incorporating everything from Google's Mobile Suite.

AOSP Android... Microsoft will have to re-do everything again -which is quite pointless (not to mention waste of resources and money as that in effect means another dev stream). If Microsoft did not have the UWA platform them forking Android would be a non issue - but they do so anything beyond using the Android o/s as stop gap is ultimately pointless lol.

So yup - let's disagree to agree lol.

 

[nate0]

Thanks lol. I wholeheartedly disagree (hardly surprising :winktongue- Android is not long term solution rather a stop gap of Microsoft's own making.

I have nothing personally against Android.

It's just far too insecure - just to do a search on - "Android Operating System vulnerabilities", Windows already has plenty of exploits, vulnerabilities and issues etc rather not add another massive attack vector onto that lol.

Let's not forget it allows Google to dominate further because you cannot get the 'android apps' without Google's playstore which means incorporating everything from Google's Mobile Suite.

AOSP Android... Microsoft will have to re-do everything again -which is quite pointless (not to mention waste of resources and money as that in effect means another dev stream). If Microsoft did not have the UWA platform them forking Android would be a non issue - but they do so anything beyond using the Android o/s as stop gap is ultimately pointless lol.

So yup - let's disagree to agree lol.

I have enjoyed watching Panos usher in devices over the years. There's something just not comfortable about Microsoft bringing the Duo with Android. From an Android consumerism standpoint you can bet your morning pancakes they'll eat it up as they already are. Surface really means nothing to me if you run Android on it. We've all come to know and grow with Windows on Surface and to have Android on it is kind of a slap in the face to be honest here. If I want an android device I'll just go buy a Oneplus Samsung or LG...

 

[Jamie Brahm]

Actually I'm not sure AOSP would be a terrible idea. Amazon app store is one of the bigger ones. If they incorporated UWP, as an software layer, it would actually not be that short of apps, overall. The biggest issue would be that it would be using two app stores, and there would need to be a SOLID inhouse set of apps.

Perhaps that isn't the most consumer appealing solution, but it would address a major problem with split development - dev for the neo and duo should require zero additional coding work.

If they added win32 support with a 'continuum' like mode, that might appeal to enterprise. And if it games via xcloud, maybe gamers.

I'm not actually opposed to using android, but I too question this from a business perspective.

 

[Ryujingt3]

MS using Android is kind of like when Sega stopped making hardware and started putting their games on their opponents platform. Everyone hated it at first, but they got over it, and now Sega are arguably stronger.

 

[sd4f]

Actually I'm not sure AOSP would be a terrible idea. Amazon app store is one of the bigger ones. If they incorporated UWP, as an software layer, it would actually not be that short of apps, overall. The biggest issue would be that it would be using two app stores, and there would need to be a SOLID inhouse set of apps.

Perhaps that isn't the most consumer appealing solution, but it would address a major problem with split development - dev for the neo and duo should require zero additional coding work.

If they added win32 support with a 'continuum' like mode, that might appeal to enterprise. And if it games via xcloud, maybe gamers.

I'm not actually opposed to using android, but I too question this from a business perspective.

AOSP would essentially be starting almost from scratch again. They might as well just have a go with W10 again. The reason is, while there is the AOSP, google has gone to great lengths to make it fairly useless, so that the industry doesn't fracture its stranglehold on android.

For instance, there are many api's only available through google for their services such as maps, forcing those developers to only release through the play store. It means any existing apps can't just be recompiled and released elsewhere.

Amazon has this very issue, where they run a competing app store, but it's difficult for developers to just recompile, because certain api's will need to be rewritten.

 

[Jamie Brahm]

AOSP would essentially be starting almost from scratch again. They might as well just have a go with W10 again. The reason is, while there is the AOSP, google has gone to great lengths to make it fairly useless, so that the industry doesn't fracture its stranglehold on android.

For instance, there are many api's only available through google for their services such as maps, forcing those developers to only release through the play store. It means any existing apps can't just be recompiled and released elsewhere.

Amazon has this very issue, where they run a competing app store, but it's difficult for developers to just recompile, because certain api's will need to be rewritten.

Well yes but, if they had amazon apps + UWP apps, it would be better than either alone, in terms of app count. In fact, they could bundle win32 support for a continuum mode. I'm not saying that's a good route, I'm just saying it's not as silly an idea for microsoft specifically, as it is for other companies.

 

[nate0]

Well yes but, if they had amazon apps + UWP apps, it would be better than either alone, in terms of app count. In fact, they could bundle win32 support for a continuum mode. I'm not saying that's a good route, I'm just saying it's not as silly an idea for microsoft specifically, as it is for other companies.

It's already known that windows 10x runs win32 sandboxed. Uwp apps are still just barely breaking the crust and now that they have a surface device that might be running Android in the foreseeable future on its iterations they won't attempt to sandbox or bring Android apps to Windows (not that this would be a good idea nor am I saying they wanted a round 2 of that bridge...)

They will have a device for Android apps and one for there bread and butter win32/uwp. It is what is.

I'm curious what made them decide they could dump all their development into Android all of a sudden... After cutting all windows mobile folks off over the past 3 years now they'll be hiring a bunch of web and Android devs lol.

 

[Drael646464]

It's already known that windows 10x runs win32 sandboxed. Uwp apps are still just barely breaking the crust and now that they have a surface device that might be running Android in the foreseeable future on its iterations they won't attempt to sandbox or bring Android apps to Windows (not that this would be a good idea nor am I saying they wanted a round 2 of that bridge...)

They will have a device for Android apps and one for there bread and butter win32/uwp. It is what is.

I'm curious what made them decide they could dump all their development into Android all of a sudden... After cutting all windows mobile folks off over the past 3 years now they'll be hiring a bunch of web and Android devs lol.

The thing is - there are no dual screen apps on android. There are no dual screen apps on windows. Devs will likely pick one. It doesn't matter how much inhouse dev microsoft does, if the dual screen software isn't up to scratch, it'll flop. Having two separate software environments increases that risk considerably.

Unless xamarin etc is a seemless one click compile (no code difference between duo and neo), then the stiffles the development of dual screen apps for both platforms.

It also get's in the way of UWA expansion, which is key to the long term one OS strategy. That could mean nearly a decade of investment, washed down the loo before it's even prime time for a more diversified computing market - core OS, cshell, onecore, UWA, windows on arm - that's a serious financial investment, and generally you don't cut ties until you know it cannot succeed (and I don't think we know that).

There's a lot of risk introduced here, unless MSFT has some secrets up it's sleeve. It's not just the issue of 'it's android, yucky', as some users might see it. It's a commercial risk that stands in the way of the entire vision of the company, and potentially, it's broader than desktop success.

I mean, let's say Duo cannot run UWA, or that the bridge isn't seamless, one click, no difference. And let's say the Duo sells better than the neo.

What then happens with windows on arm, windows core OS, and hololens? These platforms depend on UWA development, and the shared UWA development across as many successful platforms as possible.

Win32 running sandboxed is all good and well. But that actually eliminates some of users, who want system access to their program files. It's also less than ideal for a mostly touch, or all touch tablet OS. Unless those devs are at least using SOME of the UWA apis, and incorporating scaling, it's an awkward fit.

I just hope this isn't some board room stuff, because a company needs a leader, not leadership by commitee. This could be a fumble.

 

[nate0]

The thing is - there are no dual screen apps on android. There are no dual screen apps on windows. Devs will likely pick one. It doesn't matter how much inhouse dev microsoft does, if the dual screen software isn't up to scratch, it'll flop. Having two separate software environments increases that risk considerably.

Unless xamarin etc is a seemless one click compile (no code difference between duo and neo), then the stiffles the development of dual screen apps for both platforms.

It also get's in the way of UWA expansion, which is key to the long term one OS strategy. That could mean nearly a decade of investment, washed down the loo before it's even prime time for a more diversified computing market - core OS, cshell, onecore, UWA, windows on arm - that's a serious financial investment, and generally you don't cut ties until you know it cannot succeed (and I don't think we know that).

There's a lot of risk introduced here, unless MSFT has some secrets up it's sleeve. It's not just the issue of 'it's android, yucky', as some users might see it. It's a commercial risk that stands in the way of the entire vision of the company, and potentially, it's broader than desktop success.

I mean, let's say Duo cannot run UWA, or that the bridge isn't seamless, one click, no difference. And let's say the Duo sells better than the neo.

What then happens with windows on arm, windows core OS, and hololens? These platforms depend on UWA development, and the shared UWA development across as many successful platforms as possible.

Win32 running sandboxed is all good and well. But that actually eliminates some of users, who want system access to their program files. It's also less than ideal for a mostly touch, or all touch tablet OS. Unless those devs are at least using SOME of the UWA apis, and incorporating scaling, it's an awkward fit.

I just hope this isn't some board room stuff, because a company needs a leader, not leadership by commitee. This could be a fumble.

Ya I like the way you stated this.

They wanted a mobile presence so badly they had to bring a device with Android. There is just no other way they can sell a device of that design and purpose. Because Microsoft phones/mobile is synonymous with dead. So in one way they have a road map here, probably a secret one at that. They caught everyone by surprise with the Duo...

 

[sd4f]

Ya I like the way you stated this.

They wanted a mobile presence so badly they had to bring a device with Android. There is just no other way they can sell a device of that design and purpose. Because Microsoft phones/mobile is synonymous with dead. So in one way they have a road map here, probably a secret one at that. They caught everyone by surprise with the Duo...

I think it's their plan to get apps on their systems by trying to be as platform agnostic as possible with their tools. That is to say, I get the feeling that the developer tools have to be code once and compile for all desired platforms. I just can't see any success with this strategy otherwise, more to the point, I don't think the neo has a good chance at success in any case, but it's doomed without it.

The problem that I have is that from a business case outlook, developers aren't really going to flock to invest in new apps or redesigns to cater for dual screen devices. The duo and neo will probably be expensive, and I really doubt that the sales of those devices aren't going to stimulate any serious app development. WP had millions of users, and that wasn't enough.

 

[nate0]

I think it's their plan to get apps on their systems by trying to be as platform agnostic as possible with their tools. That is to say, I get the feeling that the developer tools have to be code once and compile for all desired platforms. I just can't see any success with this strategy otherwise, more to the point, I don't think the neo has a good chance at success in any case, but it's doomed without it.

The problem that I have is that from a business case outlook, developers aren't really going to flock to invest in new apps or redesigns to cater for dual screen devices. The duo and neo will probably be expensive, and I really doubt that the sales of those devices aren't going to stimulate any serious app development. WP had millions of users, and that wasn't enough.

At the core Microsoft is a software company. Satya Nadella though has recognized that Hardware it's just as important as software. Even though we already know this and most other tech companies do as well the big ones.

Now where the Duo fits in has to do with Microsoft's complete software presence on Android and no mobile presence in the Windows world. That's the only way I understand it at this point.

 

[brau0303]

I am rather excited about this device. I kind of think that a well executed dual screen device may be a more durable option than folding screen (moisture/dust protection are important considerations now that they have become the norm), either way I am interested to see how both types of folding devices evolve.

Cheers,
BR