What do you make of this article?

[socialcarpet]

Lets also not forget, Android has just detailed their new version, and they have some seriously nice hardware out there at the moment.

Too bad most of the Android phones out now don't even have the LAST OS revision. They're still shipping phones with 2.3 Gingerbread that have no clear upgrade path to Ice Cream Sandwich 4.0, much less Jellybean.

Google's amazing next-gen OS isn't that scary when they can't even manage to get more than 7% of their users up to the LAST update that came out more than a year ago.

They'll be on Android Banana Cream Pie 9.0 with 3D widgets by the time 50% of Android users are even on ICS.

And people worry about Windows Phone being "fragmented" :lol:

 

[tekhna]

It's probably just a little premature to predict Nokia's demise, don't you think?

Oh wait that's right, you don't think, you just spout dire predictions, crap all over Windows Phone and laud the miracles of Android every chance you get. :lol:

Nope, Android has real problems, and I'll fess up to them every single time.

Edit: I'd be happy to make a comprehensive list of the problems I've identified with Android. I'm no ******, it just happens to be the best solution out there. Unless WP8 takes off.

 

[socialcarpet]

Nope, Android has real problems, and I'll fess up to them every single time.

Edit: I'd be happy to make a comprehensive list of the problems I've identified with Android. I'm no ******, it just happens to be the best solution out there. Unless WP8 takes off.

Cool, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you about that on an Android forum. This isn't an Android forum however.

 

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Hopefully HTC get on board and start releasing some seriously major hardware for WP8. I'm expecting some octo-core devices from them, with 80MPixel snappers, etc. Get the specs right, make the Android specs look like rubbish, and show the world Microsoft is a force to be reckoned with. They're completely toast in the Android segment (Samsung have now sealed themselves as the Android of what the iPhone is to iOS), but there's still promise in WP7.

If they come and support Windows Phone primarily, I think they can be strong about it, and be on a par with Nokia. Just with different targeting strategies. Nokia goes for looks, HTC goes for specs. It would be a strong tandem and would mean two different ways to advertise WP8 and likely give them the marketshare, and mindshare, that they need.

 

[snowmutt]

First off, please allow me to get two pet peeves off my chest before I comment on this article:

1) I truly appreciate boneycat1 bringing this here to discuss. Mainly, because I find it fascinating how in this day and age of instant information, a ton of people are more scared then ever to hear opposing opinions. Ideologue's are born from only listening to opinions that are in agreement to them. I did not start off a Windows Phone fan, I didn't think much of it. It was after I researched all OS's I got excited about WP 7. For us to sit here on WP Central and not listen to other opinions is to give Microsoft a blank check with our minds and wallets. I do not want to do that, not with anything. I welcome being challenged.

2) I believe WP Central as a community will grow as WP 8 comes out. As such, I really hope and Pray we allow opinions (and trolls. Oh yes, the Spies from other OS's will show up. You know: the ideologues whose self worth is based on the success of their phone) without taking personal shots. Some of our forums have been negative lately. That bothers me. Disagree away. Tell someone point blank they are wrong. But, can we skip the shots against their intellegence and their intentions?

Rant over... Thank you for your patience..

As for this article, there is little doubt it is "anti-Microsoft", and written to incite controversy. First off, the web site (BSN) has an "Apple" tab, and..... the rest seem to be crammed into other catagories. Pretty much tips the cap which way this author and this web site is leaning. Considering the loyalty and success of the iPhone and iPad, I get it. But, still puts this article on notice.

The second thing this article completely ignores is the direction Microsoft has gone since Windows Mobile was killed. Their entire software design team has been pushing to this Windows 8 launch across all hardware. In some ways, MS has been thrown a bone in that Tablets up to now have been poor sellers with two exceptions: the iPad and Kindle Fire. The landscape, especially for professionals, is wide open. Laptops will never be replaced, but there is a market for Tablets to replace Notebooks, which are the small, portable tool of choice right now. Also, Tablets are the choice for portable entertainment. Huge market, just ripe for sales to jump for the right products.

But what Mr. Ahonen misses entirely is that WP will not bring users to Tablets and Windows 8, Windows 8 and Tablet sales will bring users to WP. The Ecosystem is what is being pushed here. I truly believe that WP 7 was MS's test run. They entered a new mobile phase, a new UI, updates, building a support system, and get people onboard. Now, the Ecosystem is in place and the updates have been tried and experienced and hardware partners and carriers are lined up. Now, MS is going all in.

It is a huge gamble, and one that has the chance to fail. What risk doesn't? There are a few solid points Mr. Ahonen brings up, but he does it from a "Microsoft is a horrid, evil intentioned company" point of view. And none of them are new, like many of our previous posters have said.

Lastly, for ANYONE who thinks MS wants to buy Nokia: Windows 8 is a monsterous undertaking. If MS was going to buy Nokia at it's cheapest while MS has the most resources, IT HAS TO BE NOW OR BEFORE W 8 IS LAUNCHED. Otherwise, the logic is MS wants WP 8 to fail so Nokia is cheaper. That may be the least logical thing I have ever heard.

Okay. Shutting up. Done typing. Sorry to eat up an entire page.

View is nice from this soapbox......

 

[snowmutt]

Interesting controversy.

Anyway, the relentless fast march forward of the mobile industry that constantly leaves big victims in its wake is a very interesting and important subject, and I still say that in Tomi's articles you can read interesting things about that.

Likewise of the dangers of voice calls over data traffic like of course Skype can do for mobile carriers. This threatens one of their core sources of income, and it is hardly surprising that they don't welcome things like Skype phones with open arms. Whether they actively and directly boycott them is another, but still interesting question, if you ask me.

Indeed it is an interesting question.

But for the last few years "cell phones" have gotten used less and less for phones and more for it's mobile tools. That is why even when someone goes into a carrier for a feature phone, still very popular in my central Illinois area which is very depressed and jobs are scarce, they get pushed to a smart phone or told they need the data plan for their device. Which, of course, they don't. That is why they want a feature phone or a flip phone in the first place. But without the data plan, carriers do not make their money.

But a full scale "boycott" of SKYPE?? Which is already HUGE on Android, with Facetime and Tango also available on other OS's? Doesn't pass the smell test....

 

[rbrunner]

Tomi's main website

Allow me to add a little background info: The subject of the controversy, the article as linked by the OP on Bright Side Of News*, is a copy. The original is on Ahonen's main site here:

Communities Dominate Brands: What Happens Now to Nokia Lumia and Windows Phone, After Microsoft Throws Nokia Under the Bus? (Updated)

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

It's probably just a little premature to predict Nokia's demise, don't you think?

No, it isn't. Anyone that's familiar with Nokia's situation can see that the company as a whole, not just the smart phone division, is up the creek without a paddle. Do we need to run down again where Nokia stands?

-Their corporate bonds are rated junk status, by all three ratings agencies. This means it is very difficult for the company to borrow money to fund to day to day operations. Also, once ratings agencies cast doubt on your ability to repay debts, suppliers, like chip manufacturers and LCD manufacturers, start demanding payment up front.
Not good.

-Nokia has only about three financial quarters of cash left on hand, about Five Billion Dollars. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except that, their burn rate, the amount of cash they spend, is about a Billion Dollars per quarter.

-Their stock has lost 90% of its value over the last few years, 60% of it within the past two years. It's back to 1996 levels before Nokia ever started building smart phones.

-They're shedding employees left and right, and their more talented employees are bailing out of the company.

-They counted on Lumia sales to lift them up during the Symbian transition....except that didn't happen, as Nokia just lowered guidance, and warned of MORE losses for Q3 and Q4.

-And right now, Nokia is an acquisition target for anyone from hedge funds to Samsung, Google, any Chinese OEM or even Microsoft.

So yeah, Nokia is hosed. They're done, it's over.

 

[based_graham]

No, it isn't. Anyone that's familiar with Nokia's situation can see that the company as a whole, not just the smart phone division, is up the creek without a paddle. Do we need to run down again where Nokia stands?

-Their corporate bonds are rated junk status, by all three ratings agencies. This means it is very difficult for the company to borrow money to fund to day to day operations. Also, once ratings agencies cast doubt on your ability to repay debts, suppliers, like chip manufacturers and LCD manufacturers, start demanding payment up front.
Not good.

-Nokia has only about three financial quarters of cash left on hand, about Five Billion Dollars. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except that, their burn rate, the amount of cash they spend, is about a Billion Dollars per quarter.

-Their stock has lost 90% of its value over the last few years, 60% of it within the past two years. It's back to 1996 levels before Nokia ever started building smart phones.

-They're shedding employees left and right, and their more talented employees are bailing out of the company.

-They counted on Lumia sales to lift them up during the Symbian transition....except that didn't happen, as Nokia just lowered guidance, and warned of MORE losses for Q3 and Q4.

-And right now, Nokia is an acquisition target for anyone from hedge funds to Samsung, Google, any Chinese OEM or even Microsoft.

So yeah, Nokia is hosed. They're done, it's over.

Not even close from over.

What would I do if I was running Nokia

1st move is to rebrand Nokia Lumia and re-market it as chaper pay-as-you-go phones with 0$ on contract

2nd is to release a new brand name for the Nokia WP8 launch

3rd adapt Windows RT to make some slick tablets and ultraportable laptops with 3G support

I would completely change the branding change the culture unfortunately to do that you need to cut employees but its like starting from scratch again.

I would utilize MS as much as I can and aim to be the premier MS OEM

 

[AngryNil]

it is hardly surprising that they don't welcome things like Skype phones with open arms

Except that Microsoft unveiled that Skype simply can integrate with the OS once installed as an app, and any other VoIP service can do the same. AT&T can bundle in their VoIP service with identical integration, and not pre-install Skype. How is that bad for the carriers? They don't get such treatment on iOS, where they aren't allowed to brand anything.

I find this debacle to be absolutely baseless, just another "industry expert" who actually doesn't know a thing about the situation running his mouth off.

 

[tekhna]

Not even close from over.

What would I do if I was running Nokia

1st move is to rebrand Nokia Lumia and re-market it as chaper pay-as-you-go phones with 0$ on contract

2nd is to release a new brand name for the Nokia WP8 launch

3rd adapt Windows RT to make some slick tablets and ultraportable laptops with 3G support

I would completely change the branding change the culture unfortunately to do that you need to cut employees but its like starting from scratch again.

I would utilize MS as much as I can and aim to be the premier MS OEM

Nokia is dead, as we know it. And this is just one more nail in the coffin-- Finnish government won't buy Nokia shares: PM - Business - US business - Aviation - msnbc.com
The argument had long been that the Finnish government wouldn't let Nokia die, but it appears they're fine with it.

The 2-dollar a share death-march is on. At 2.03 a share now pre-market.

 

[snowmutt]

Nokia is dead, as we know it. And this is just one more nail in the coffin-- Finnish government won't buy Nokia shares: PM - Business - US business - Aviation - msnbc.com
The argument had long been that the Finnish government wouldn't let Nokia die, but it appears they're fine with it.

The 2-dollar a share death-march is on. At 2.03 a share now pre-market.

I will agree with one point: Nokia is dead as we have known them.

Problem was, Nokia was Dead Company Walking before the hiring of Elop and the "burning platform" Memo. Despite being the largest manufacturer in the world, they were bogged down in debt, layers of competing OS developments (Symbian VS Meego VS their luxery brand whose name I forget), infighting, bloated repetitive jobs, and waste everywhere they turned. They could not continue on the path they were on. Consider Nokia as the real estate market of a few years ago: Everyone thought they gravy train would last, but the bubble was going to burst.

Elop made some serious mistakes, one of them was being too honest. His Burning platform speech and public revelations put Nokia in the spotlight for the wrong reasons. Symbian should have never been completely scratched- it was Nokia's bread and butter. Keeping a line or two going until WP 8 came out (remember, Nokia was saying "wait for our WP 8 devices", even before their WP 7 line was released) would have been the best decision. But Nokia is NEVER going back to what it was. But it can still be succesful: WP gives them a chance to enter developing markets and high end ones at a fraction of the R&D costs, thereby giving them a chance to be more profitable per handset sold.

Microsoft will invest heavily to keep Nokia above water. They have tons of advantages with Nokia as a partner that they will not have as part of their company. I am betting on them. I would buy Nokia stock for the long term investment.

 

[socialcarpet]

Nokia is certainly in dire straits these days, but I do hope the doomsayers are wrong. I still think it's just a wee be early to be saying with 100% confidence that Nokia is done.
If so I think it would be a real tragedy for Windows Phone and smartphones in general. Right now Nokia and Apple are the only smartphone manufacturers out there that aren't Asian copycats. A great deal of the innovation in design comes from those two. If we lose Nokia, we've lost something big. A loss of one of the Korean or Chinese companies would be meaningless. Not to be harsh, but they contribute little but knockoffs of each others products, it's even more true for Windows Phone where all the do is give us Android re-treads.

One of the reasons Microsoft partnered with Nokia, aside from the fact that Nokia was in need of, and ready to commit 100% to a new OS, is that Nokia actually designs beautiful things. Beautiful in that old-school Dieter Rams style of clean European design which you just aren't going to get out of Korea or China.

Oh, they'll try and imitate it, in fact I'm sure there are already craptastic Lumia 800/900 clones running some moldy old version of Android on the Chinese mainland. :straight:

But forget any truly unique designs of that level of creativity and beauty coming out of Asia in the future. If Nokia's done, then so is Windows Phone's ability to differentiate its hardware from the 10,000 other plasticky generic Android phones out there, you know the same stale designs which failed to get Windows Phone noticed for the last 2 years before Nokia came along?

I'd like to believe that Microsoft understands this. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do considering their Surface tablet prototype looks like it came directly out of the Nokia design studio, it even uses the same color palette as the Lumia/N9. I don't think that was a coincidence. If Nokia folds, Apple would be the only one left making original designs that are worthy of being on display in MoMA and Apple only designs iPhones and they only do it once every few years. We'd be headed for the dark ages of boring Asian copycat Android crap when it comes to phone design.

My opinion is that what's good for Nokia is good for Windows Phone. I see ample evidence that Microsoft is thinking the same way, so why don't we wait and see what happens. I for one, am not looking forward to a future of being stuck in the plastic doldrums with HTC and Samsung if Nokia doesn't make it. :dry

 

[AKA Preluva]

Nokia is certainly in dire straits these days, but I do hope the doomsayers are wrong. I still think it's just a wee be early to be saying with 100% confidence that Nokia is done.
If so I think it would be a real tragedy for Windows Phone and smartphones in general. Right now Nokia and Apple are the only smartphone manufacturers out there that aren't Asian copycats. A great deal of the innovation in design comes from those two. If we lose Nokia, we've lost something big. A loss of one of the Korean or Chinese companies would be meaningless. Not to be harsh, but they contribute little but knockoffs of each others products, it's even more true for Windows Phone where all the do is give us Android re-treads.

One of the reasons Microsoft partnered with Nokia, aside from the fact that Nokia was in need of, and ready to commit 100% to a new OS, is that Nokia actually designs beautiful things. Beautiful in that old-school Dieter Rams style of clean European design which you just aren't going to get out of Korea or China.

Oh, they'll try and imitate it, in fact I'm sure there are already craptastic Lumia 800/900 clones running some moldy old version of Android on the Chinese mainland. :straight:

But forget any truly unique designs of that level of creativity and beauty coming out of Asia in the future. If Nokia's done, then so is Windows Phone's ability to differentiate its hardware from the 10,000 other plasticky generic Android phones out there, you know the same stale designs which failed to get Windows Phone noticed for the last 2 years before Nokia came along?

I'd like to believe that Microsoft understands this. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do considering their Surface tablet prototype looks like it came directly out of the Nokia design studio, it even uses the same color palette as the Lumia/N9. I don't think that was a coincidence. If Nokia folds, Apple would be the only one left making original designs that are worthy of being on display in MoMA and Apple only designs iPhones and they only do it once every few years. We'd be headed for the dark ages of boring Asian copycat Android crap when it comes to phone design.

My opinion is that what's good for Nokia is good for Windows Phone. I see ample evidence that Microsoft is thinking the same way, so why don't we wait and see what happens. I for one, am not looking forward to a future of being stuck in the plastic doldrums with HTC and Samsung if Nokia doesn't make it. :dry

If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.

Unfortunately for Nokia, Microsoft would only need to poach the best talent in smartphone design at Nokia, that still stuck around, and then wait for the eventual Nokia bankruptcy and liquidation to scoop up the production facilities at fire sale prices.

Another negative for Nokia, is that it looks like their best talent have been sprucing up their resumes, and looking elsewhere for employment. The brain drain may be the final nail in the coffin. Multiple stories on the tech blogs about Nokia engineers leaving the company.

After all, who wants to be the last guy off the HMS Nokia, as it slips below the waves?

The Finnish government won't save them either; they've already ruled that out, and besides, why should they, when Nokia has already shut down their domestic facilities and shifted production to Asia?

 

[tekhna]

If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.

But Microsoft doesn't need Nokia for production, there is tons of production capacity in Asia.

Frankly, with Nokia's stock well under 2.00 a share, I'm shocked they haven't been bought yet. And the only reason why, that I can think of, is people think Nokia is actually worthless, and so they are just waiting for it to keep spiraling down.

 

[sinime]

It's too bad MS didn't have the foresight to make a hobbled version of WP7 that ran on WP8 hardware. Have cores temporarily locked, temporary useless external memory slots, etc.. And make the gen 2 phones upgradable with all the new features just dormant waiting for an OS upgrade. Nokia might not be in this mess and the announcement of only gen 1 phones not getting WP8 would have been a lot easier for the public to swallow. People would happy buying a Nokia phone now, knowing full and well that 8 was on the way.

 

[snowmutt]

It's too bad MS didn't have the foresight to make a hobbled version of WP7 that ran on WP8 hardware. Have cores temporarily locked, temporary useless external memory slots, etc.. And make the gen 2 phones upgradable with all the new features just dormant waiting for an OS upgrade. Nokia might not be in this mess and the announcement of only gen 1 phones not getting WP8 would have been a lot easier for the public to swallow. People would happy buying a Nokia phone now, knowing full and well that 8 was on the way.

Beats the living crap out of me why manufacturers - ESPECIALLY Nokia- didn't do it themselves. Microsoft gave minimum standards.

Nokia could have put dual core devices out on the 900 at least (although I think the 800 should have gotten it as well), and included the same type of graphic chips on Android devices to prepare it for the future. On top of that, it gave one more selling point against Android and the iPhone.

Always baffled me.

 

[sinime]

Heck, Nokia could have even done a really odd one, sell a WP8 device now, that ships with Symbian and is upgradable to WP8 once released. Up to the user to upgrade or not.

 

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Heck, Nokia could have even done a really odd one, sell a WP8 device now, that ships with Symbian and is upgradable to WP8 once released. Up to the user to upgrade or not.

That decision would have baffled me personally... but Microsoft would probably have got cheesed off about it being Symbian not WP7. God only knows why the HTC TITAN wasn't dual-core...