What I think Microsoft needs to do in order to gain market shares in the handset market.

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squire777

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My 4 year old HP mini netbook gets to an open window of firefox about 80-90 seconds after I power it on.

I stopped taking this guy seriously after his rant about taking 10 minutes.
 

anony_mouse

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My 4 year old HP mini netbook gets to an open window of firefox about 80-90 seconds after I power it on.

I stopped taking this guy seriously after his rant about taking 10 minutes.

Are you saying that my work PC doesn't take ten minutes to get from power on to Outlook and a browser running? How can you possibly know that? I believe your 80-90 second figure. Why don't you believe my ten minute figure?

As everyone here seems to be obsessed with PC start up times rather than how to sell more Windows Phones, I will restate my idea in a different way.

1. For unspecified reasons, my observation is that many people have a negative view of Windows. Note: 'many people' does not necessarily include you.
2. Therefore, Microsoft would sell more phones if they used a name other than 'Windows Phone'. Note: I assume that most people on this forum already own a Windows phone, and would probably buy another regardless of the name, so this is likely not about you. It's about the people out there who don't own a Windows Phone but might possibly be persuaded to buy one in the future. I further assume this is quite a large number of people - many more than own a Windows Phone today.

What do you think of this idea? If you don't like it, please explain why.
 

N_LaRUE

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Are you saying that my work PC doesn't take ten minutes to get from power on to Outlook and a browser running? How can you possibly know that? I believe your 80-90 second figure. Why don't you believe my ten minute figure?

As everyone here seems to be obsessed with PC start up times rather than how to sell more Windows Phones, I will restate my idea in a different way.

Because you're basing your Windows experience based on your company computer. Regardless on how long your work computer takes to boot up or how slow it is to use on a regular basis afterwards (which you haven't mentioned) it's not a true indication of what Windows is like. You're completely biased.

1. For unspecified reasons, my observation is that many people have a negative view of Windows. Note: 'many people' does not necessarily include you.

Please provide an explanation of 'many people' and what do you mean by 'your observation'? Personal bias finds root causes where there is none. Windows PC OS has about 90% of the market. I have a hard time believing that you're 'many' is a respectable number.

2. Therefore, Microsoft would sell more phones if they used a name other than 'Windows Phone'. Note: I assume that most people on this forum already own a Windows phone, and would probably buy another regardless of the name, so this is likely not about you. It's about the people out there who don't own a Windows Phone but might possibly be persuaded to buy one in the future. I further assume this is quite a large number of people - many more than own a Windows Phone today.

So based on your vague speculation of 'many people' you have determined that in 'your' conclusion that the Windows name should be dropped from a product. Yes I can see why your observations should be taken seriously. I think you have a small view of the IT world and your bias towards Windows is simply that.

What do you think of this idea? If you don't like it, please explain why.

I don't like it because it all personal bias. That's why. You haven't provided any statistical data to backup anything you've stated. It's all your personal opinion.

The reason for the slow uptake of Windows has many factors behind it. Most likely it's apps and all the negative aspects of it. I don't think the Windows name is the turn off you make it.

So if you want me to take you seriously prove to me the negative correlation to Windows that you believe exists and I'll start taking you seriously. Until then you're just blowing hot air.
 

anony_mouse

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Because you're basing your Windows experience based on your company computer. Regardless on how long your work computer takes to boot up or how slow it is to use on a regular basis afterwards (which you haven't mentioned) it's not a true indication of what Windows is like. You're completely biased.

Seriously, have you read any of my posts? Why do you say I am biased? Am I any more biased than you?
I completely agree that my work laptop may not be representative and I've said this many times (check back if you don't believe me). I have used other Windows machines that start up quickly and aren't hopelessly laggy. This is not about me. I am making a general observsation that in my experience, many people have a negative view of Windows.

Please provide an explanation of 'many people' and what do you mean by 'your observation'? Personal bias finds root causes where there is none. Windows PC OS has about 90% of the market. I have a hard time believing that you're 'many' is a respectable number.

This is not about my personal bias. And I'm not producing any evidence to back up my claim. You will have to compare it with your own experience (not necessarily of your own computer, but of other people that you know).

So based on your vague speculation of 'many people' you have determined that in 'your' conclusion that the Windows name should be dropped from a product. Yes I can see why your observations should be taken seriously. I think you have a small view of the IT world and your bias towards Windows is simply that.

Yes. It was a suggestion that I hoped would lead to an interesting discussion. That is the purpose of an internet forum, I believe? It was a slightly cheeky and humourous suggestion, I agree, but unfortunately humour doesn't really survive long discussions on PC start up times.
Why do you think I have a small view of the IT world? Why do you think I'm biased against Windows?

I don't like it because it all personal bias. That's why. You haven't provided any statistical data to backup anything you've stated. It's all your personal opinion.

Now we're talking! Finally someone actually responds to my idea! I could hug you right now. You don't know how good it feels to finally get my point across. Sometimes it is great to be alive.
So to summarise and remove the personal remarks - you don't agree with my point 1 (i.e. that many people have a negative view of Windows); and therefore point 2 is irrelevant. Correct?

Now, let's try to move things on. Regarding point 1 - do you have any evidence to refute my statement that 'many people have a negative view of Windows'? If so, please present it. If not, then we're both just presenting personal opinions and anecdotal evidence. That's fine (this is the internet), but let's be clear about that.

The reason for the slow uptake of Windows has many factors behind it. Most likely it's apps and all the negative aspects of it. I don't think the Windows name is the turn off you make it.

How do we solve the apps problem? What are 'the negative aspects of it' (not sure what you meant by that)? How do we solve these negative aspects?

So if you want me to take you seriously prove to me the negative correlation to Windows that you believe exists and I'll start taking you seriously. Until then you're just blowing hot air.

I'm not asking you to take me seriously. Indeed I'm 'blowing hot air' (whatever that means). I just wanted someone to respond the point I was making!
Now, I'm hoping that we can have an interesting discussion - maybe we learn something and hopefully we have some fun. I'd be very interested if you have numbers to back up your assertions - if you do we can test my idea and see if it makes any sense. Otherwise we are both just 'blowing hot air'.
 

ohgood

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I saw your point right off, but if you say anything slightly negative here, with or without the explanation, it's rarely seen as anything other than trolling.

The perception that people have of their 10 minute boot up work computers is right on, and a good reason to distance the phone brand from the PC brand.
 

martinmc78

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I just wanted someone to respond the point I was making!
Now, I'm hoping that we can have an interesting discussion - maybe we learn something and hopefully we have some fun. I'd be very interested if you have numbers to back up your assertions.

You have no point. All you have is subjective opinions - which according to one of your earlier posts don't count.

Also "blowing hot air" is a polite way of saying "Your full of sh*t"

Further there are no "numbers" anyone can provide for either case. You are however on a windows forum and while we can all agree that MS has issues and quite often do things that make consumers want to face palm you will be hard pushed to convince anyone on here that changing MS products to use google or android is the way forward.
 

anony_mouse

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You have no point. All you have is subjective opinions - which according to one of your earlier posts don't count.

In which post did I say that?

Also "blowing hot air" is a polite way of saying "Your full of sh*t"

You certainly have an elegant way of expressing yourself, good sir!

Further there are no "numbers" anyone can provide for either case.

OK, so we're all on an equal footing here.

You are however on a windows forum and while we can all agree that MS has issues and quite often do things that make consumers want to face palm you will be hard pushed to convince anyone on here that changing MS products to use google or android is the way forward.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just to have an interesting and enlightening discussion.

Anyway, I'm going to rephrase my idea again, maybe we can get some even better feedback:

1. The Windows brand name is loved by everyone. It's associated with universal happiness - instant start times, incredible speed, exquisite user interface, etc. However... Microsoft own a brand which is (hard to believe) even better! X-box. Everyone loves X-box even more!

2. Windows Phones have been a tremendous success. Those factories can't turn them out fast enough and shops are overwhelmed by demand. Normal people (not fanboys!) queue up for days as soon as new supplies are even rumoured to be coming. However, there are two tiny clouds on the horizon - Apple and Android. Now, these are clearly legacy systems and look pathetic and puny when compared to Windows Phone. But for some reason, a few people still buy them. Hard to believe, I know! So the question is, how do we (who have seen the wondrous light of Windows Phone), relieve the suffering of these poor souls and convince them to follow the Windows path to true happiness? Surely we owe it to these people to help them? Are we not good people? How could we live with ourselves if we don't take action?
Now, one day, a girl has an idea that will change the world. A small and unattractive girl, who looks strangely like a frog. In fact, a girl from those miserable Andriod/iOS owning classes, who live in squalor in the poorest, most derelict quarters of our fine city. Being from such a background, she understands these people, knows how they think and what makes them act in such a bizarre and inexplicable manner. She knows that they don't love Windows! Now, good people, you will find it hard to imagine that such a lack of adoration is possible in the human mind - surely the result of some horrible sickness! But nevertheless it is true. And this girl, my friends, knows how to save these people from themselves. In a blinding vision she realises how to help them, how to drag them from the darkness and into the light. How to end their wretchedness! She knows, my friends, that these people do love X-box. Even their warped and damaged consciousness cannot deny the glory of X-box. And this girl, this small and feeble girl, knows that the piteous masses would buy Windows Phones if only they were called X-box phones instead.
Well, my good friends, what a moment. Surely the crowning hour of human achievement, as finally we rise above the animals and move ourselves closer to God. Saint Steve immediately changes the name, and within weeks (as soon, in fact, as the factories can make them), those oppressed masses have X-box phones. And thus, suffering in the world is ended and humankind lives in harmony, under the eternal summer sky, in a Garden of Eden where no-one is without their X-box phone, even for a moment.

My friends, how can you tell me that such a glorious vision can be untrue?
 

N_LaRUE

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I'm not asking you to take me seriously. Indeed I'm 'blowing hot air' (whatever that means). I just wanted someone to respond the point I was making!

Now, I'm hoping that we can have an interesting discussion - maybe we learn something and hopefully we have some fun. I'd be very interested if you have numbers to back up your assertions - if you do we can test my idea and see if it makes any sense. Otherwise we are both just 'blowing hot air'.


Here is your two points in order -

1. Make cheap Windows Phones to seed the market.
2. Drop the Windows name because it has negative connotations.

Answer:

1. This is already being done and the 520 is the most popular selling WP.

2. You have no evidence this is true. You used your personal experience with Windows OS. You haven't indicated any experience using WP and brought in Android into the discussion which had absolutely no baring on the conversation.

To top it off you then claim that you have 'personal observations' that people don't like the Windows name. Where this observation comes from you haven't indicated.

There isn't any research into brands that I was able to find online (mostly personal opinions) but I would guess that MS must have done some research otherwise they wouldn't have used the Windows name. If you find anything lets hope it's not an online poll as those are not valid.

My point about apps is something I've said before on this forum. I personally could care less about some apps but they are important to the overall appeal of WP and it's image. My point about negative aspects is that we have one large company, Google, refusing to make apps for WP and then we have the most popular photo sharing app doing the same thing, Instagram. Now we have 3rd party apps for these services but it's not the same and the image of not having these types of apps is a blight to WP. Image is important, not the name. If WP had all the apps available that iOS and Android had then it would be interesting to see what the situation would be. However the apps situation on WP is still in it's growing stage and both iOS and Android have had a few years head start. Also Android only got more popular recently. There are still many apps on iOS not on Android. What needs to be fixed on WP is the image of being third or last. It needs to sort out the issues with app developers and it needs to fix the bugs on the OS and hardware. Keep in mind all OS and hardware have bugs.

So that's my point. So if you can clarify your points it would be appreciated. Until you can provide a more in depth information I don't see a need in discussing this further.
 

anony_mouse

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Here is your two points in order -

1. Make cheap Windows Phones to seed the market.
2. Drop the Windows name because it has negative connotations.

Answer:

1. This is already being done and the 520 is the most popular selling WP.

Indeed. So my idea is a good one, yes? It would be nice to see some more cheap phones. I was extremely tempted to buy a 520. The biggest problem for me was that they are only available in stupid colours (in my city). I hope someone will make a Windows Phone for 150 euros that doesn't look ridiculous. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

2. You have no evidence this is true. You used your personal experience with Windows OS. You haven't indicated any experience using WP and brought in Android into the discussion which had absolutely no baring on the conversation.

Why does Android have no bearing on the conversation? Shouldn't we try to learn from more successful ecosystems? What does my experience of using WP have to do with it? In fact, I would postulate that someone who hasn't used WP is better qualified than you to say how to increase WP's market share, because they are the people we need to appeal to!

To top it off you then claim that you have 'personal observations' that people don't like the Windows name. Where this observation comes from you haven't indicated.

Isn't the term 'personal observations' clear enough? Then I apologise. I meant things that I have personally observed. What are your personal observations on this matter?

There isn't any research into brands that I was able to find online (mostly personal opinions) but I would guess that MS must have done some research otherwise they wouldn't have used the Windows name. If you find anything lets hope it's not an online poll as those are not valid.

So, we are both in the same position - making claims without evidence.

My point about apps is something I've said before on this forum. I personally could care less about some apps but they are important to the overall appeal of WP and it's image. My point about negative aspects is that we have one large company, Google, refusing to make apps for WP and then we have the most popular photo sharing app doing the same thing, Instagram. Now we have 3rd party apps for these services but it's not the same and the image of not having these types of apps is a blight to WP. Image is important, not the name. If WP had all the apps available that iOS and Android had then it would be interesting to see what the situation would be. However the apps situation on WP is still in it's growing stage and both iOS and Android have had a few years head start. Also Android only got more popular recently. There are still many apps on iOS not on Android. What needs to be fixed on WP is the image of being third or last. It needs to sort out the issues with app developers and it needs to fix the bugs on the OS and hardware. Keep in mind all OS and hardware have bugs.

I assume this is referring to my third idea - to move WP over to the Android codebase. Correct? Well, there are pros and cons to that, as discussed in another thread. To be honest, I'm losing the will to argue about that one - gets too technical. So, I agree to drop it. Please forget about it - a truly terrible idea. You win on that one - well done!

So that's my point. So if you can clarify your points it would be appreciated. Until you can provide a more in depth information I don't see a need in discussing this further.

I'm not sure what clarification you need on my points? Please ask specific questions, then I can answer.
 

martinmc78

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In which post did I say that?

Post #39 - you brushed my opinion off because it was subjective in order to put across an opinion of you own - also subjective.

Also you cannot have an interesting and enlightening discussion when you continually rebuff anyone else's opinion in place of your own and circle jerk around questions directed at you with questions of your own in order to incite further reaction.

I'm not even going to bother reading that wall of text either. You wasted 10 minutes of your life at what I can only assume is your attempt at sarcasm.

Maybe you could have saved that time and used it more constructively by booting up your work computer
 

N_LaRUE

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I assume this is referring to my third idea - to move WP over to the Android codebase. Correct? Well, there are pros and cons to that, as discussed in another thread. To be honest, I'm losing the will to argue about that one - gets too technical. So, I agree to drop it. Please forget about it - a truly terrible idea. You win on that one - well done!

No I don't agree moving to the Android code base. That would just be stupid. More people code in C, C+, C++ and C#. The problem is getting them to start using their skills for WP.

I'm not sure what clarification you need on my points? Please ask specific questions, then I can answer.

If you could further back your assertions about Windows, which you've indicated you can't and I can't find anything to back my claims, so the topic is moot.

So lets end it there. This whole thing was simply your opinion with no backing support. I still think you're a touch biased towards Windows but that's not uncommon. I still don't get why you're on this forum. You don't own anything MS so why bother?
 

anony_mouse

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Post #39 - you brushed my opinion off because it was subjective in order to put across an opinion of you own - also subjective.

I believe, Mr MC, that it is called discussion.

I'm not even going to bother reading that wall of text either. You wasted 10 minutes of your life at what I can only assume is your attempt at sarcasm.

That's probably wise. Is it wrong to admit that I had a lot of fun writing it? It was genuinely intended as humour, not sarcasm.

Maybe you could have saved that time and used it more constructively by booting up your work computer

That is a fabulous idea, my good fellow! The things I could achieve in those ten minutes, when added up day after day! Ha ha - I will learn to love Microsoft yet. :)
 

N_LaRUE

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Oh Mr LaRUE, why do you torment me with my youthful follies?

I'll take that as a compliment I guess. I think you'd be surprised how old some of us on here are.

I already conceded this was a pitiful idea! What could I have been thinking? I can only prostrate myself in front of you and beg for your forgiveness. Could you find it in your heart, some small piece of humanity that you could yet direct at such a pathetic and worthless wretch?

A bit much over the top don't you think?

I chanced by this warm and inviting forum a few months ago, when I first considered buying a Windows Phone. Ah ha, I thought, here's a happy place full of charming and sophisticated individuals! Perhaps if I sneak in, I will learn from them through intellectual discourse and the free exchange of knowledge. One day, maybe they will even accept me as one of their own. Well, maybe that last point is too much to hope. I am not a very becoming person, I will freely admit. But I have passed some happy times here, and I hope, by the grace of God and the good citizens of this place, to pass some more.

It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about. We all try our best to be open minded here but I wouldn't say your points were well thought out. Opinions are fine. Just understand when they can be wrong. It's called learning.

To give you a slight hint at my age. I've been using Windows since it's inception. I used DOS before that and I played Pong as a child. Just because someone comes off sounding young doesn't mean they are. Also I try to be light hearted when writing. Even when people annoy me.
 

Reflexx

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The Windows brand may not be a big selling point for consumers, but I also don't think it's a bug deterrent. While "many" may view Windows unfavorably, there are "many" that view it favorably.

On the desktop it's an extremely dominant brand.

I believe that MS chooses to keep the name on phones is because of their roadmap of eventually unifying everything.

To MS, everything is a PC. A phone is just a portable PC.
 

N_LaRUE

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The Windows brand may not be a big selling point for consumers, but I also don't think it's a bug deterrent. While "many" may view Windows unfavorably, there are "many" that view it favorably.

On the desktop it's an extremely dominant brand.

I believe that MS chooses to keep the name on phones is because of their roadmap of eventually unifying everything.

To MS, everything is a PC. A phone is just a portable PC.

Well said.

Do you know you have the same avatar as another user?
 

anony_mouse

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A bit much over the top don't you think?

I strongly recommend a little creative writing every day. It's a lot of fun, although regrettably all too often frowned upon in the workplace.

It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about. We all try our best to be open minded here but I wouldn't say your points were well thought out. Opinions are fine. Just understand when they can be wrong. It's called learning.

I'm still not clear what why some people seem to think that I don't know what I'm talking about. I assume you refer to my claim that my PC takes ten minutes to start? That is, unfortunately, true. I have never claimed this was a typical experience, or that it was Microsoft's fault. In fact, I'm fairly confident that it's largely the fault of my company's IT department. However, it is not an uncommon experience, at least for those I talk to in the corporate world. But clearly it was not a good example, as it made people focus on PC start up times (which is not a particularly interesting subject) and not on whether Windows Phone could be more successful if it had a different name.
I still wonder whether, for example, 'Xbox phones' would sell better. Sadly, no one has yet offered their view on this.

To give you a slight hint at my age. I've been using Windows since it's inception. I used DOS before that and I played Pong as a child. Just because someone comes off sounding young doesn't mean they are. Also I try to be light hearted when writing. Even when people annoy me.

Well, you can beat even my long experience with Windows. I first used it with Windows 3.1 and have used it probably every day of my professional life since Windows NT 4. I've written drivers for Windows, received special builds of the OS from Microsoft to help support forthcoming features, and used it to write probably 10s of thousands of lines of code (perhaps more). I still have the developer tools installed on my work laptop, although sadly I rarely get to use them these days.
So, I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have some experience of Windows. And I'm pretty aware of the pros and cons of the various platforms in use today. Perhaps I have weakness for provocative questions ... But also think they can be the most interesting. :)
 

martinmc78

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The Windows brand may not be a big selling point for consumers, but I also don't think it's a bug deterrent. While "many" may view Windows unfavorably, there are "many" that view it favorably.

On the desktop it's an extremely dominant brand.

I believe that MS chooses to keep the name on phones is because of their roadmap of eventually unifying everything.

To MS, everything is a PC. A phone is just a portable PC.

Windows fits the OS perfectly on all systems anyway - Even live tiles are windows into an app just as much as the application windows on desktop pc's

Rebranding doesn't make any logical sense. Better marketing is all Windows needs.

Show the consumers what the products can actually do compared to the competition and you get more consumers.
More consumers = More Developers = More apps = More consumers.
 
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