Why no flagship Windows Phone for 2013 or Is Microsoft OEMs moving too slow?

[Laura Knotek]

I do feel both the L1020 and the L1520 were expected to do better. I do understand they would appeal only to a smalle buying segment, but they had to be looking for a closer to 10 million unit sold worldwide as opposed to the just over 8 million they had. These are 2 amazing devices, and I am disappointed they did not light tech on fire.

However, let us hope and pray for WP's sake that not only will 2014 bring amazing WP 8.1 devices, it will bring a wave of them. A flagship from HTC/Samsung/Nokia in April or May, and new flagships for the fall. I agree with trainplane completely. Without Flagships at least a couple times a year, our favorite OS will not get out of single digit sales % anytime soon. This OS is amazing, but not enough people have adopted it yet. Obviously, Android gets every OEM to put up Hero level devices, so they get a dozen or so flagships a year. WP will not get that. But a couple a year will be fine. That will get mind share and sales going.

WP is not Apple. It cannot get away with pumping out a L920-like device every 12-14 months and expect to win this race.

Do you know how many 808s were sold? How have the 1020 sales done compared to the 808? Truth be told, I never even heard of the 808 until I joined this forum, since I've never seen one in a store or in the wild here.

The 1520 is nice, but it is niche product due to its size.

 

[Jazmac]

1.3 GHz.. so?
don't tell me that you seriously think that moar hertzzz is bettah?
that 1.3 GHz dual core demolishes the latest Snapdragon 800 quad-core at 2.2 GHz.
proof: iPhone A7 Chip Benchmarks: Forget the Specs, It Blows Everything Away
no other smartphone chip is as fast as the A7 period. it is the state of the art as of right now.

apple doesn't put a lot of RAM because iOS, like WP, use memory efficiently unlike lagdroid.

Its testing against older phones. It should show better.

 

[anon5997296]

Well, I would say we needed a flagship this year. Sure 920 is pretty capable phone. But it's a year old phone. If we had a flagship this year, it would create some waves of interest.. Like ohh.. That's a new Nokia Lumia xyz. While I agree WP8 doesn't need quad cores but the camera in WP needs it. Imagine if 1020 had Snapdragon 800, it wouldn't take 4-5 seconds to capture images.
But we can't blame OEMs, as it's Microsoft's fault not supporting those specs for it's own OS. How could we expect a quad core Nokia WP when WP only supports dual core. If GDR3 was released in February or March, then things would be different.

 

[a5cent]

Its testing against older phones. It should show better.

True, but that wasn't really the point. The point was that based on how most people interpret specs, it should definitely be inferior, when the opposite is true... although the situation is pretty similar when compared against more current competition. The difference just isn't as extreme.

 

[N_LaRUE]

To me the reason there's no new flagship is simply because there's no new OS. In my eyes, MS dropped the ball and Nokia did what they could with what they had. You can't release a new flagship with no new features and none of the GDR features were significant enough to warrant a new flagship.

As for specs, as has already been stated, it's not as simple as that. Specs don't sell devices, experience does. Right now WP is a good experience, but not a great experience. It needs an update to bring it up to date and meet expectations of users. Having an OS, regardless of the incremental updates, that's 1 1/2 year old doesn't inspire people, even on new hardware.

Let's hope WP8.1 is inspirational and a great leap forward.

 

[snowmutt]

Do you know how many 808s were sold? How have the 1020 sales done compared to the 808? Truth be told, I never even heard of the 808 until I joined this forum, since I've never seen one in a store or in the wild here.

The 1520 is nice, but it is niche product due to its size.

Seems to be the prevailing thought here.

Okay, I will relent. L1520 is simply a device aimed at the mobile segment that loves them some huge screens. It is a growing segment, but still overall small compared to the average consumer. I actually am the example of this: I LOVE everything about the L1520 except it's size. Hence: I sit on an upgrade and continue using my L900.

I still think in this day and age, the L1020 is not a niche device. Too many user put a high priority on the cameras on thier devices for me to accept that. I just think WP is still not mainstream, it was priced too high, and the AT&T exclusive all added up to hurting it's sales here in the US.

I won't claim to have a clue how either is being regarded internationally.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Seems to be the prevailing thought here.

Okay, I will relent. L1520 is simply a device aimed at the mobile segment that loves them some huge screens. It is a growing segment, but still overall small compared to the average consumer. I actually am the example of this: I LOVE everything about the L1520 except it's size. Hence: I sit on an upgrade and continue using my L900.

I still think in this day and age, the L1020 is not a niche device. Too many user put a high priority on the cameras on thier devices for me to accept that. I just think WP is still not mainstream, it was priced too high, and the AT&T exclusive all added up to hurting it's sales here in the US.

I won't claim to have a clue how either is being regarded internationally.

Though I am seeing people with larger phones about, the majority I see still have an iPhone 4/4s. I see the occasional 5/5s and of course the G3. Most people still want a 4.5" screen range of phone. To most that is the top size they want. Any bigger and you're really geting into tablet range.

The 1020 is a niche phone and having that hump on the back is not really attractive to most people. Most people are happy with a good quality camera. Though I do wonder about optical zoom options.

I agree wholeheartedly that this constant 'exlusive' deals they make are thier biggest mistakes. Also the special carrier editions don't help either. I'm not sure why Nokia and MS had to go down this route but it's been painful for the ecosystem. I'm hoping MS is squash this whole thing with them now owning Nokia. I'd like to see these things go.

Internationally we have it a lot easier. In most other countries the phones work under their right names so no confustion there. Here in the UK the exlusive almost killed the L920 launch when they went with EE. Big mistake and it made a lot of people unhappy. The lack of an unlocked phone was another thorny issue.

 

[crystal_planet]

Of course, I also agree that software is important, and Windows Phone needs a lot of work in that too. Late software update means we haven't progressed anywhere since Mango. That's delayed too. Late new hardware and late new software.

Really. Windows Phone hasn't changed since Mango. Sure. Why stop there? Why don't you just say Windows Phone hasn't changed since Windows Mobile 6.5?

But to counter - Android has not changed since Ice Cream Sandwich and iOS hasn't changed since 4.0

 

[Chregu]

Really. Windows Phone hasn't changed since Mango. Sure. Why stop there? Why don't you just say Windows Phone hasn't changed since Windows Mobile 6.5?

But to counter - Android has not changed since Ice Cream Sandwich and iOS hasn't changed since 4.0

Windows Phone has gotten a few features since first release, and it has lost some features since first release, most notably Zune. Some of the features lost were later reintroduced with a lot of fanfare, for example FM radio. The only thing that has really changed with Windows Phone 8 from an user perspective is a better app support and therefore more and better apps.

 

[Tempest790]

I think Nokia just likes chugging along with the 920 series. 920, 925,928, and now the 929.

My guess? The flagship phones will continue until you get the 929zx Mark IV. :wink:

 

[invertme]

100% agree. Microsoft needs at least one giant feature update, 6 or 7 premier apps and a flagship phone - EVERY YEAR.

Every six months people should be able to buy "the latest" thing.

A good example of that, that should have worked out is the 928. If the 929 had come out in November when it was rumored it would have been the new edgy hardware to replace the "old" 928. That helps spur sales and makes the line seem fresh.

The same goes with updates. How excited do you all get when an update roles out? It makes people fall in love with their phones all over again and not like they have been forgotten.

 

[paulxxwall]

No problems with my 920 but many of us get bored after a while. I'd buy new device every year att next plan alows that so ms needs to catch up for us who want to upgrade every year but seems as if microsoft are not interested in specs wars

 

[Elitis]

1.3 GHz.. so?
don't tell me that you seriously think that moar hertzzz is bettah?
that 1.3 GHz dual core demolishes the latest Snapdragon 800 quad-core at 2.2 GHz.
proof: iPhone A7 Chip Benchmarks: Forget the Specs, It Blows Everything Away
no other smartphone chip is as fast as the A7 period. it is the state of the art as of right now.

apple doesn't put a lot of RAM because iOS, like WP, use memory efficiently unlike lagdroid.

There aren't any apps at the moment that truly utilize anything more than dual-cores in a mobile device at the moment, so in a way you're right. However, as I said Apple plays to their strengths. There's no sense for them to have such an efficient OS, and then put in a processor where only two of the cores are utilized at any given time. Its a waste, and they know this. Put the A7 against a quad-core processor - such as the Snapdragon 800 - where only two cores are utilized at any given time, and of course the A7 will perform better. Make use of all four cores and that A7 will show you how slow a 1.3GHz dual-core processor truly is.

As for what I think in regards to hertz, more hertz is not necessarily 'better'. But, it is - whether you think so or not - faster.

Your post is a perfect demonstration of how consumers have literally no chance of deriving any useful information from the SoC/RAM related specs on a spec sheet. Actually, hardware and software engineers can't do that either. The difference is that the engineers understand they are missing at least a couple dozen data points before any conclusions can be drawn, whereas the average consumer thinks the spec sheet is already rather conclusive.

On paper it may not look it, but the A7 is actually better then any other smartphone/tablet SoC out there right now, despite having "just" two cores that are clocked at "only" 1.3Ghz. That article wasn't kidding when it stated that the cores race is largely meaningless... consumers just don't want to believe it, and the hardware industry is happy to keep it that way, as specs are one of their primary marketing tools. Specs are much easier to improve upon than actual performance...

I'll spare you the explanations, but will offer this more in-depth article on the A7 (analysed as part of the iPad Air). The A7 is anything but technologically inferior...

I had already said that the specs war in general - not just the cores race - is "meaningless". Also, I never said the A7 was technologically inferior. I'll admit I may have implied it, but again, as I said the iPhone itself, in general, is technologically inferior...based purely on specs.

 

[Moiz Mian]

Ok wait a minute. While the iphone processor at a dual core 1.3ghz is a great processor, it does not blow anything out of the water. It benchmarks very equally to the Tegra 4 and Snapdragon 800. I belive they trade off in different benchmarks. For example, in 3dmark, the snapdragon and tegra 4 beat the iphone with the a7 processor. In javascript (sunspider) the a7 chip ties with tegra 4 in the surface. (Don't count android because chrome sucks and ruins the score).

While the a7 processor is impressive, it in no way blows away the competition. Anyway, the 1520 has great flahship specs, but of course, there needs to be a more mainstream device with some more pazzaz

 

[paulxxwall]

There aren't any apps at the moment that truly utilize anything more than dual-cores in a mobile device at the moment, so in a way you're right. However, as I said Apple plays to their strengths. There's no sense for them to have such an efficient OS, and then put in a processor where only two of the cores are utilized at any given time. Its a waste, and they know this. Put the A7 against a quad-core processor - such as the Snapdragon 800 - where only two cores are utilized at any given time, and of course the A7 will perform better. Make use of all four cores and that A7 will show you how slow a 1.3GHz dual-core processor truly is.

As for what I think in regards to hertz, more hertz is not necessarily 'better'. But, it is - whether you think so or not - faster.


I had already said that the specs war in general - not just the cores race - is "meaningless". Also, I never said the A7 was technologically inferior. I'll admit I may have implied it, but again, as I said the iPhone itself, in general, is technologically inferior...based purely on specs.

spec war is not meaningless. Maybe to you but its like saying carburetors are good ....why would you want to buy a car with fuel injection? Well because it performs better just like awesome phone specs will do, 1080p displays, etc. Android has a bunch of 5"1080p high spec phones ...they may need those specs but those specs sold!

 

[Elitis]

spec war is not meaningless. Maybe to you but its like saying carburetors are good ....why would you want to buy a car with fuel injection? Well because it performs better just like awesome phone specs will do, 1080p displays, etc. Android has a bunch of 5"1080p high spec phones ...they may need those specs but those specs sold!

When I say meaningless, as in my first post here, I mean to the average end-user.

 

[Huime]

Just to get the fact straight, the A7 SoC inside the iPhone 5S is the fastest phone processor in the world period.

That's a myth, period.

 

[calbro]

Gdr3;They just got hardware support from Microsoft...:unhappysweat:

 

[Blacklac]

There will never be 1 flagship from Nokia unless it is carried on every carrier. That is why we get multiple "flagship" devices. 920 was arguably the best when it came out, 1020 was arguably best when it came out, 925/925 was arguably the 920 replacement, 1520 is arguably the current best device and the Icon will also carry be a "Flagship" for the carrier(s) that support it.

Think of Nokia as having "Flagship" lines, not devices.

Not like it matter, having a title of "Flagship" means nothing if its not the device you're looking for.

 

[gabrelov]

I dont think 1520 is flagship its like s4 and galaxy note they are of different league. I expect more of 9xx series but not 925 it just like a variant of 920. So I expect a lot this 2014

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